Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 02:41PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Well if you dont believe that the majority of people are undeserving what rationale do you have for demanding these people in very bad situations should be plunged further into poverty?

Firstly, in what sense are they poor? No roof over their heads? Nope. No food to eat? Nope. No clothes to wear? Nope. No access to medical care? Nope.

There's a huge difference between not having as much of everything as you want, and being poor. In this country, social welfare provides people with a lot more than they need to get by. This wouldn't be a problem if the money wasn't coming out of the pockets of other citizens who need the money too.

Secondly, deserving has little to do with it. I'd happily see everyone in every job (McDonald's burger flippers, bin men, brain surgeons) get a few hundred grand a year, and extend that to those on the dole...if we had unlimited money. We don't. We are bust, and living off borrowings, and borrowing more all the time. We need to get spending in line with income - cuts and tax increases are the only mechanism to do this.

RedXIV · 12-09-2011 02:42PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Well if you dont believe that the majority of people are undeserving what rationale do you have for demanding these people in very bad situations should be plunged further into poverty?

Probably because if we don't sort it out now and try to get back on an upward economic curve then we're going to get worse.

For example, if we were to leave everyone in the situation they are in, in a few years time, money will simply run out. And then we'd REALLY be plunging people in poverty. no longer would it be "I can barely afford to get to the cinema once every few weeks", it will be "Some days I just can't afford to eat".

The reality of the situation is that we actually generally do have a comfortable life. Many people have their own places, they eat regularly, they are warm and they have access to some of lifes luxuries e.g. internet, tv. But if we keep going the way we are it will get to the stage where people will sell their tv for food, You'll move in with family to save on rent and more miserable conditions.

If you don't want that, you need to accept cuts now

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 02:44PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Firstly, in what sense are they poor? No roof over their heads? Nope. No food to eat? Nope. No clothes to wear? Nope. No access to medical care? Nope.

There's a huge difference between not having as much of everything as you want, and being poor. In this country, social welfare provides people with a lot more than they need to get by. This wouldn't be a problem if the money wasn't coming out of the pockets of other citizens who need the money too.

Secondly, deserving has little to do with it. I'd happily see everyone in every job (McDonald's burger flippers, bin men, brain surgeons) get a few hundred grand a year, and extend that to those on the dole...if we had unlimited money. We don't. We are bust, and living off borrowings, and borrowing more all the time. We need to get spending in line with income - cuts and tax increases are the only mechanism to do this.

Have you or anyone you know every been on the dole?

There are people going hungry and who dont have enough for the basics, we have one posting on this very thread!

Your solution to the crisis that these people had no part of is to take from the little that they have to prop up the mistakes of the elite, do you not see this? You are arguing for punishing people who are already desperate.

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 02:47PM

COYW wrote: »

wolfpawnat, you are your OH are the type of people who should be supported. I have no problem with the welfare you are receiving and you should avail of all you are entitled to. Once your OH qualifies in his field, he will contribute to the country in a positive way. My issue lies with those who view welfare as a career and will take, take, take every cent they can get for life.

If you offered them a job in the morning for 5K more than the dole per annum, they wouldn't take it. I grew up with these people and they deserve to have their welfare cut.

I come from a council estate, I lived with these people as my neighbours so I know what you mean! Even if you offered them another 10 grand a year on top of their SW they wouldn't work as it would mean they would not have the time to be in the bookies all day and would have to get up before noon!

I would say 1/4 of those currently on JSA were like that, and no doubt a few have recently been made redundant and now have decided to be part of that lifestyle long term electively, but I would say for the most part, most people are trying to get by.

I cannot wait for the day he qualifies, and as soon as he does I am going back to college then as our son will be in school and his dads starting salary will ensure we will never have to see a SW office EVER again

12-09-2011 02:49PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Have you or anyone you know every been on the dole?

There are people going hungry and who dont have enough for the basics, we have one posting on this very thread!

Your solution to the crisis that these people had no part of is to take from the little that they have to prop up the mistakes of the elite, do you not see this? You are arguing for punishing people who are already desperate.

She has the internet. She is not going hungry. She is not bothered applying for her full entitlements. One of them is in college to get a second degree instead of a job.
Give over with the attempts at exaggeration please

RedXIV · 12-09-2011 02:49PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Have you or anyone you know every been on the dole?

There are people going hungry and who dont have enough for the basics, we have one posting on this very thread!

Your solution to the crisis that these people had no part of is to take from the little that they have to prop up the mistakes of the elite, do you not see this? You are arguing for punishing people who are already desperate.

Oh and just for reference, I've been on the dole, most of my friends have been on the dole, I know what its like to live on. I'm not saying only social welfare should be cut, but it definitely needs to cut as part of plans for economic revival

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 02:50PM

bluewolf wrote: »

She has the internet. She is not going hungry. She is not bothered applying for her full entitlements. One of them is in college to get a second degree instead of a job.
Give over with the attempts at exaggeration please

She has had to ask for handouts from family to provide healthcare for an infant, while ignoring her own medical complaints due to her financial situation.

Are you proud of a country that puts its citizens in such a position. Do you deem this an acceptable situation?

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 02:52PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Have you or anyone you know every been on the dole?

Yes.

ChRoMe wrote: »

There are people going hungry and who dont have enough for the basics, we have one posting on this very thread!

As we have discussed, hers is not a typical case for several reasons. The vast majority have not only enough for their basic needs, they have plenty left over for sun holidays, the bookies, cigarettes and whatever else floats their boats.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Your solution to the crisis that these people had no part of is to take from the little that they have to prop up the mistakes of the elite, do you not see this? You are arguing for punishing people who are already desperate.

If these people voted for Fianna Failure, they had a part in causing our problems. If they bought a house and contributed to the property bubble, they played a a part. There's loads of blame to go around. And I dispute the idea that this is a punishment - it's not. It's facing reality. Would you prefer an Argentine-style hard default here?

Then you'll see real poverty.

Permabear · 12-09-2011 02:53PM

This post has been deleted.

12-09-2011 02:54PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

She has had to ask for handouts from family to provide healthcare for an infant, while ignoring her own medical complaints due to her financial situation.

Because she's not bothered applying for her full entitlements and because her boyfriend is back in college for a second degree instead of working. By choice.

Are you proud of a country that puts its citizens in such a position. Do you deem this an acceptable situation?

They are in their situation by choice, so don't give me this "the country made me" rubbish. All sob stories and personal responsibility or otherwise aside, the country does not have enough money, and the social welfare allowance has skyrocketed well ahead of inflation. Those are basic facts.
People seemed well able to cope on it a number of years ago but now they are used to higher amounts it seems to be unacceptable to bring it back in line. All the details about taxing the rich and doing this that and the other save very little. They are not the only things that need to be cut, not by a long shot, but it is part of the problem.
Anywhere else on the forum you will hear me arguing just as much against things like escalation on public pension DB schemes. About the inefficiency of the public sector which is notorious at this stage.

WalterMitty · 12-09-2011 02:54PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Have you or anyone you know every been on the dole?

There are people going hungry and who dont have enough for the basics, we have one posting on this very thread!

Your solution to the crisis that these people had no part of is to take from the little that they have to prop up the mistakes of the elite, do you not see this? You are arguing for punishing people who are already desperate.

have you been to shops lately? 3litres of milk only 2.25eur large packs of pasta for a euro, packs of mince and chicken for a few euro. Food is at a historically low price.Pennys providing new clothing for next to nothing. For vast majority of human life people have used huge amount of their resources just to feedr and clothe themselves, but today you can do those things for a fraction of average wage. Life on dole here is heaven for 95% of people in the world, cut the melodrama.

Bannasidhe · 12-09-2011 02:54PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

She is in the position she is in because she does not feel entitled to ask for all the benefits she qualifies for, and because she and her partner are investing in their future, taking short-term pain by obtaining better qualifications for a long-term gain in living standards. Their situation is reflective of that, and is hardly typical. And it's certainly not typical of the spongers who spend their lives on benefits.

It's not that different from my own. I 'missed' the boom as I was doing my PhD - entirely self-funded plus some help from my sister and mother. I was refused a Medical Health card at the time as apparently they couldn't work out how I was managing to live on 12,000 P.A. (very frugally and thanks in no small part to the lessons taught by my grandmother who survived the Great Depression and the Emergency with 5 children).

I got a full-time job in my chosen field (on 1/2 the salary of my direct colleagues for same job - they had moved up the pay scales to over 80k P.A) and kept on the week-end job I had had as a student working as a tutor in distance education. I bought a small house but as I was not long employed my brother went guarantor for 3 years only until I 'got on my feet'. I was firmly on my feet but..banks..what can you say...

Due to the cut backs my post ended. I could no longer remain in my part-time job as the SW requires the employer to stamp a form to indicate which days were worked - this was not possible as I was employed by a Dublin university to work in Cork and the SW would not accept a contract of employment which specified which days I would work ( 5 Saturdays per academic year per module). The bank now deny my brother's guarantor status was due to end so technically if I go into arrears he is liable. He is taking legal action - I can't afford to. Because of this I will not be granted mortgage relief.

My son was let go by a large multinational know for its 'revolving door' employment policies. This pressure led to the break-up of his relationship. He now pays 60 p.w maintenance out of his 188 pw for his children.

My income is now 188 pw - I am hoping the fuel allowance I applied for is granted but I will not count those chickens until they hatch, an extra 20 euro a week would make a huge difference.

My son and myself combine our income and from this I am meeting my mortgage payment and have no arrears. Our sole source of 'entertainment' is the internet. We have both applied for countless jobs -in my case from Mississippi to Auckland.

In 2009 I was earning 50,000 as I worked full-time weekdays and part-time at weekends. Now I have less then 10,000. I considered a FAS scheme (which to be honest I am qualified to teach) but the cut off age was 31...

I suspect wolfpawat and myself are more reflective of the majority on SW then the spongers so often trotted out as proof the system is too generous.

We are 'good' middle-class (ish) women, educated, used to paying our own way and being beholden to no one. We paid our taxes, and our levys. Now we are stuck in a dehumanising system and dismissed by too many here as 'spongers' who can live on less while those in charge live high on the hog. The sheer injustice of it sticks in my craw.

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 02:54PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes.

As we have discussed, hers is not a typical case for several reasons. The vast majority have not only enough for their basic needs, they have plenty left over for sun holidays, the bookies, cigarettes and whatever else floats their boats.

If these people voted for Fianna Failure, they had a part in causing our problems. If they bought a house and contributed to the property bubble, they played a a part. There's loads of blame to go around. And I dispute the idea that this is a punishment - it's not. It's facing reality. Would you prefer an Argentine-style hard default here? Then you'll see real poverty.

If social welfare has to be hit to make the ends meet for the country ok. However its a disgrace that society looks to poorest first.

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 02:55PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

She has had to ask for handouts from family to provide healthcare for an infant, while ignoring her own medical complaints due to her financial situation.

Are you proud of a country that puts its citizens in such a position. Do you deem this an acceptable situation?

If you have a suggestion as to how to pay everyone loads for everything, we are all ears. Unfortunately, we have to work in the real world, and without real-world solutions, high words count for nothing.

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 02:56PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We are 'good' middle-class (ish) women, educated, used to paying our own way and being beholden to no one. We paid our taxes, and our levys. Now we are stuck in a dehumanising system and dismissed by too many here as 'spongers' who can live on less while those in charge live high on the hog. The sheer injustice of it sticks in my craw.

And when you pipe up about it, the reaction appears to be that you have never had it so good on the dole so you should quit your moaning :mad:

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 02:57PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If you have a suggestion as to how to pay everyone loads for everything, we are all ears. Unfortunately, we have to work in the real world, and without real-world solutions, high words count for nothing.

I've condensed it to a single simple point, start looking for savings at the top of society, not the bottom.

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 03:00PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We are 'good' middle-class (ish) women, educated, used to paying our own way and being beholden to no one. We paid our taxes, and our levys. Now we are stuck in a dehumanising system and dismissed by too many here as 'spongers' who can live on less while those in charge live high on the hog. The sheer injustice of it sticks in my craw.

It seems to me the biggest problem for you is simply the guarantee from your brother for the mortgage. Without that, I presume you could safely default and go up from there? (apologies if I've made a wrong assumption here)

Many people were caught out by buying property during the bubble. This is a totally different issue to the SW side of things.

Re. the dole - there are two issues as I see it: it's too generous, and there is a lot of sponging and fraud. The sponging issue is not as big a problem as it was, as the proportion of spongers has been massively diluted by the number of genuine cases that exist at present.

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 03:01PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

and there is a lot of sponging and fraud.

You keep saying this, what evidence that is not anecdotal do you have?

You come out with some great lines "safely default"....

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 03:03PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

I've condensed it to a single simple point, start looking for savings at the top of society, not the bottom.

There are little or none to be had. And that's the bottom line here. The state spends little or nothing on these people, they pay their own way. All the state could do is tax the arse off them, which would probably be counter-productive. Read about the Laffer Curve if you are interested in learning more.

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 03:05PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

There are little or none to be had.

Jesus wept....

So the huge bonuses to workers in state owned banks, or the payouts to politicans or what countless other inequalities in Irish society dont count?

wtf.

Bannasidhe · 12-09-2011 03:05PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Because she's not bothered applying for her full entitlements and because her boyfriend is back in college for a second degree instead of working. By choice.

They are in their situation by choice, so don't give me this "the country made me" rubbish. All sob stories and personal responsibility or otherwise aside, the country does not have enough money, and the social welfare allowance has skyrocketed well ahead of inflation. Those are basic facts.
People seemed well able to cope on it a number of years ago but now they are used to higher amounts it seems to be unacceptable to bring it back in line. All the details about taxing the rich and doing this that and the other save very little. They are not the only things that need to be cut, not by a long shot, but it is part of the problem.
Anywhere else on the forum you will hear me arguing just as much against things like escalation on public pension DB schemes. About the inefficiency of the public sector which is notorious at this stage.

This is what I mean. By Choice indeed! This country has enough to pay developers 200,000 a year. To pay the CEOs of ESB and Bord Gais outrageous sums. The give senior public sector workers more them generous retirement terms at per-salary cut levels. It has enough to let Finger's Fingleton keep his million.
I have the highest possible education qualification available -I paid for it myself. I have years of experience in my chosen profession. I would take a job for 20,000 tomorrow in my field. Hell - I'd consider 15,000 if they threw in a bus pass.

Am I in this situation by choice?

12-09-2011 03:07PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This is what I mean. By Choice indeed! This country has enough to pay developers 200,000 a year
...
Am I in this situation by choice?

Banna, I have no idea what your post has to do with anything.
The poster clearly indicated they are doing these things by choice; she explicitly stated she wasn't going to claim her full allowance... just because. Going back to college instead of working is a choice - or are you disagreeing with that?

What this has to do with developers or your story about wanting a job I have no idea.

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 03:07PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

You keep saying this, what evidence that is not anecdotal do you have?

The Irish government has saved almost €345 million after a review of more than 350,000 social welfare claims.
Fraudsters collecting pension payments, unemployment and sickness benefits, and the one-parent family allowance were targeted by officials from the Department of Social Protection in the review.
Minister Joan Burton revealed the savings were made in the first seven months of the year through a range of fraud and control measures.

http://irishecho.com/?p=66552

Social protection minister Joan Burton is to announce a further crackdown on those engaged in social welfare fraud.

The minister said she hopes the new initiative will save the state €625m.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/social-welfare-crackdown-joan-burtonrsquos-new-fraud-measures-2873881.html

ChRoMe wrote: »

You come out with some great lines "safely default"....

Thanks. I'm giving you enough credit to expect you to be able to understand such terms.

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 03:07PM

bluewolf wrote: »

She has the internet. She is not going hungry. She is not bothered applying for her full entitlements. One of them is in college to get a second degree instead of a job.
Give over with the attempts at exaggeration please

Again internet to provide educational assistance, yes I go on boards, but living in the middle of nowhere with a toddler for company can get a tad dull. Also I do not drink, smoke, go out so surely I can not be denied €20 a month on this.

Also it is not that I am not bothered, but rather the self esteem bashing I have taken in recent times because I am not even allowed medical cards. If I cannot get them, I can apply for Dependant Adult, it is not a guarantee as he is in college.

Also getting a job in archaeology is gone, there was a piece on the RTE news about it a few weeks ago, and there are many people wearing the soles of their shoes at this moment trying to find menial work and cannot get it, also we live miles from Dublin as it was a cheap area to get a place to live so only certain jobs can be applicable because of transport restrictions as we have no car.

bluewolf wrote: »

Because she's not bothered applying for her full entitlements and because her boyfriend is back in college for a second degree instead of working. By choice.

They are in their situation by choice, so don't give me this "the country made me" rubbish. All sob stories and personal responsibility or otherwise aside, the country does not have enough money, and the social welfare allowance has skyrocketed well ahead of inflation. Those are basic facts.
People seemed well able to cope on it a number of years ago but now they are used to higher amounts it seems to be unacceptable to bring it back in line. All the details about taxing the rich and doing this that and the other save very little. They are not the only things that need to be cut, not by a long shot, but it is part of the problem.
Anywhere else on the forum you will hear me arguing just as much against things like escalation on public pension DB schemes. About the inefficiency of the public sector which is notorious at this stage.

So should he come out and go on the SW too? because that is all he would be able to do.

Odd logic really!

We are making sure that in 3 years time he will be a qualified vet and if you are on the dole (which you very much could be by then) he will be contributing taxes to pay you for your dossers life

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If you have a suggestion as to how to pay everyone loads for everything, we are all ears. Unfortunately, we have to work in the real world, and without real-world solutions, high words count for nothing.

Well everyone here gives out about England vs Ireland on SW, but how much is it costing the English tax payers for the free education, free books, free under 12 healthcare a year. If I did not have to pay for my sons health and education I know I would then be able to take quite a cut in the SW I would be receiving!

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 03:07PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This is what I mean. By Choice indeed! This country has enough to pay developers 200,000 a year. To pay the CEOs of ESB and Bord Gais outrageous sums. The give senior public sector workers more them generous retirement terms at per-salary cut levels. It has enough to let Finger's Fingleton keep his million.
I have the highest possible education qualification available -I paid for it myself. I have years of experience in my chosen profession. I would take a job for 20,000 tomorrow in my field. Hell - I'd consider 15,000 if they threw in a bus pass.

Am I in this situation by choice?

Its an extremely depressing experience reading this isint it.

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 03:08PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Jesus wept....

So the huge bonuses to workers in state owned banks, or the payouts to politicans or what countless other inequalities in Irish society dont count?

wtf.

We added all of these things up earlier and came up with a tiny figure compared to our deficit. Did you not read these posts?

By the way, seeing as you are fond of demanding proof - can you please prove to us that 20 billion euros can be found from the upper echelons of our society on a sustainable basis?

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 03:09PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Banna, I have no idea what your post has to do with anything.
The poster clearly indicated they are doing these things by choice; she explicitly stated she wasn't going to claim her full allowance... just because. Going back to college instead of working is a choice - or are you disagreeing with that?

What this has to do with developers or your story about wanting a job I have no idea.

There is no work! Why do you think there are 450,000 people unemployed, because they just couldn't be bothered.

Me thinks you need your head taken out of the ostrich hole you have it in my dear!

RedXIV · 12-09-2011 03:10PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

You keep saying this, what evidence that is not anecdotal do you have?

You come out with some great lines "safely default"....

345 million euro saved by fraud squad

Sounds like there are plenty of chancers out there.

I sympathize with many here who are on the dole, I know it isn't easy but there is always a way. E.g. for Bannasidhe, can you turn your education towards self employment? If you have the highest level of education possible, surely you must be able to channel that in some way to make a profit?

Of all my friends in school, the one who dropped out in 6th year is the richest by pure hard work. He's been working 16 hour days for 3 years and turned a one man taxi company into an 11 man fleet. Proof that you don't NEED a college education to make money, working hard will usually be enough

Demonique · 12-09-2011 03:11PM

I hope all the cnuts posting in this thread lose their jobs and have to receive social welfare

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 03:12PM

Demonique wrote: »

I hope all the cnuts posting in this thread lose their jobs and have to receive social welfare

Stupidest post yet. Bravo.

Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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