Caning, the answer to Ireland and England's scumbag problem

Paarse Krokodil · 14-08-2011 04:21PM #1

If caning was introduced here would it solve the scumbag problem and yob culture of the British Isles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Malaysia

deathrider · 14-08-2011 04:22PM

Can't we just shoot them?

Paarse Krokodil · 14-08-2011 04:23PM

deathrider wrote: »

Can't we just shoot them?

We'd have to leave the EU first

deathrider · 14-08-2011 04:24PM

We could shoot them too.

FetchTheGin · 14-08-2011 04:27PM

Youth centres are a good deterrent for young kids, most have nothing to do.

The King of Moo · 14-08-2011 04:28PM

This scumbag fad is getting very tiresome.

I wish I heard the same kind of invective spouted against the bankers and politicians who have ruined this country.

teol · 14-08-2011 04:29PM

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Youth centres are a good deterrent for young kids, most have nothing to do.

Scumbag kids have plenty of stuff to do. It's just that their parents couldn't give a toss about them.

FetchTheGin · 14-08-2011 04:36PM

teol wrote: »

Scumbag kids have plenty of stuff to do. It's just that their parents couldn't give a toss about them.

What do they have to do exactly?

Everything costs money and you will find a lot of these families have very little.

flutterflye · 14-08-2011 04:40PM

I'd rather cane the people in charge of the system that leads to people becoming 'scumbags'.

Einhard · 14-08-2011 04:41PM

I'm in two minds aout this tbh. I'd describe myself as a liberal, and some of the reflexive proposals since the riots have been unworkable at best, and downsright stupid at worst. Many people just want to see some punishment meted out, without thinking of the possible consequences of the penalty. However, caning seems like it could have some role to play. The punishment is inflicted on the individual, rather than impacting on family and dependents, as cutting benefits would. It also doesn't leave the individual further disenfrachised, or worse off in the longer term, and therefore more likely to turn to crime, as the latter proposals would. So, i think there is some merit. Perhaps individuals could be given the choice between 6 months in prison, or a lashing. One thing I'd be against though, would be turning such punishments into public spectacles. ]

Having said all that, I'm undecided and open to persuasion either way.

Laisurg · 14-08-2011 04:42PM

teol wrote: »

Scumbag kids have plenty of stuff to do. It's just that their parents couldn't give a toss about them.

I think it's more of a cycle really, for instance i grew up in finglas and there was this one kid who moved there from a better off area, he was grand quite mannerly and the like and then he started hanging around with a group of older kids in the area who were scum of the earth and shortly after turned into a little scumbag who was getting into trouble left right and center, his parents were grand and all as well, but **** parents can be a cause as well but i think bad influences from the other kids are a more frequent cause.

Caning might work with some kids but could leave others frightened of their teachers and there's always teachers who are just complete pricks who would more than likely take the piss if caning came into effect, even if it's only the principal such as in Malaysia but then again kids normally turn into proper scumbags around the age of 13-15 and they'll have left school by then anyway.

Overheal · 14-08-2011 04:42PM

In the Short Term - Yes.

Long Term - No.

The Real Problem - A generation that is growing up with the void of Corporal Punishment and a very recessed Catholic orthodoxy has basically bred this chaotic point in time when people are still trying to figure out what works, now that you don't have the Church or the Cane to discipline people defacto. It just takes time to find out what works and this Generation of young people might be 'lost' but the next Generation of younger people will do better than the last, and so on.

The Keystone: The Irish home has not been able to keep up with the challenge of all the recent changes. Kids aren't being raised in constructively as a result. Fix the Homes; Fix the Streets.

policarp · 14-08-2011 04:44PM

didn't work when I was in school a few moons ago.
Same chaps got whacked time and time again.

Mike 1972 · 14-08-2011 04:49PM

Geography fail !

Paarse Krokodil wrote: »

the scumbag problem and yob culture of the British Isles?

the British Isles > "Ireland and England"

now bend over

Einhard · 14-08-2011 04:50PM

FetchTheGin wrote: »

What do they have to do exactly?

Everything costs money and you will find a lot of these families have very little.

I was watching Question Time on Thursday, and the Tory MP David Davis stated that these peope should take responsibility for their own lives and prospects, rather than blaming society and their situation all the time. In response, a woman in the audience started to angrily denoucne him, demanding if he had any idea of the reality in council estates and the like. To which Davis replied that he did, because he was born and raised in one!

It didn't stop the woman's rant, but it should have. The point is that people shouldn't need the state to hold their hands, and provide outlets for them. Of course it's nice if that happens, but it shouldn't be necessary. In fact, it's generally not necessary, as the fact that only a tiny minority of people living in such conditions actually partook in the riots. You state that there is nothing to do. Are there no sports pitches in Tottenham? No local soccer teams? No libraries? No training courses? Of course there are, but lots of young people choose not to use them. And the more we blame society for the actions of those youths (and ignore incidentally, the majority who lead law abiding, respectful lives in the same circumstances), the more the thugs feel that their actions are legitimate, and the less can be done to resolve things.

Vercoda · 14-08-2011 04:51PM

A lot of the problems - and blame - can be laid squarely on the parents.

For example, here in Smithfield in Dublin city centre, there are pretty feral, wild kids running the streets/area at all hours - I've often been walking home at 11pm or so at night, yet seen a group of 6 or 7-year-old kids out on the street, not to mention the SCREAMING and whistling kids constantly creating a racket/disturbance at the Smithfield complex.

Where the hell are their parents? How do they excuse their little kids being free to roam the streets late at night, Or to wander off and disturb an entire community?

When you've got children who haven't even made it past the age of 10 yet, but who are already out roaming the streets, and causing annoyance - well, Who thinks that they're going to have a decent life ahead? Or even a trouble-free one? It shouldn't be the case that you can look at young Dublin children, and already KNOW that they have an underachieving, troublesome life ahead of them - I doubt that the group of 7- and 8-year-old boys who tried to mug me in Smithfield last Christmas will be avoiding prison in another 10 years or so - yet they're a product of their 'family' lives, and not just the environment.

Caning hoodies and scumbags sounds like something some of teh red-top tabloids would come up with - but you'd probably achieve a Lot more, a lot earlier, if you were to cane the parents of these brats instead, already dooming their children to rotten lives because, well, because it's just Easy to do so, right?

After all, it's a lot easier for Some inner-city Dublin parents to let their dead-eyed seven-year-old son or daughter wander around at The Four Courts Luas stop at 11pm than to, you know, care...

Einhard · 14-08-2011 04:51PM

Overheal wrote: »

The Real Problem - A generation that is growing up with the void of Corporal Punishment and a very recessed Catholic orthodoxy has basically bred this chaotic point in time when people are still trying to figure out what works, now that you don't have the Church or the Cane to discipline people defacto. .

In Tottenham?

flutterflye · 14-08-2011 04:52PM

Vercoda wrote: »

A lot of the problems - and blame - can be laid squarely on the parents.

And what about the parent's parents?
And the parent's parent's parents?

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2011 04:55PM

Punishment simply forces people to behave when there's a chance of getting caught, because they fear the punishment.
That's just not good enough in my view. What we need to do is raise a society which doesn't WANT to do these things because they have empathy and compassion for other people.

In other words, if I was in England I wouldn't have looted or burned anything down because my first thought would have been "wow, that poor shopkeeper is going to be devastated, I feel sorry for him". Compassion and empathy would make me not *WANT* to screw people over in the way the rioters did, because I was brought up with a principle of feeling sorry for others when bad things happen to them.

Where was that compassion with these rioters? We're all human beings, why is it that I (and the vast majority of people) are capable of feeling sorry for others and putting ourselves in the place of those who suffer, and these looters apparently were not?

Basically what I'm saying is, it's a sad state of affairs if the only reason you don't steal from others is because you might get punished for it. We should be focusing on teaching these kids not to WANT to steal from others, because it's unkind and causes hardship to those they steal from.

In other words, we need to teach them to behave because they care about humanity, not because they're afraid of getting whacked.

My name is URL · 14-08-2011 04:56PM

Oh for fcuk sake.. how many more threads are there going to be about the best way to deal with scumbags before the week is over?

The way people go on here you'd swear that Ireland and the UK are the only two places in the world with a criminal underclass.

Einhard · 14-08-2011 04:59PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Punishment simply forces people to behave when there's a chance of getting caught, because they fear the punishment.
That's just not good enough in my view. What we need to do is raise a society which doesn't WANT to do these things because they have empathy and compassion for other people.

In other words, if I was in England I wouldn't have looted or burned anything down because my first thought would have been "wow, that poor shopkeeper is going to be devastated, I feel sorry for him". Compassion and empathy would make me not *WANT* to screw people over in the way the rioters did, because I was brought up with a principle of feeling sorry for others when bad things happen to them.

Where was that compassion with these rioters? We're all human beings, why is it that I (and the vast majority of people) are capable of feeling sorry for others and putting ourselves in the place of those who suffer, and these looters apparently were not?

Basically what I'm saying is, it's a sad state of affairs if the only reason you don't steal from others is because you might get punished for it. We should be focusing on teaching these kids not to WANT to steal from others, because it's unkind and causes hardship to those they steal from.

In other words, we need to teach them to behave because they care about humanity, not because they're afraid of getting whacked.

That's all well and good, but we don't live in an ideal, perfect world, and until we do, we need penalties to for those who engage in criminality. From the outside, society in certain parts of the UK seems extremely disloctaed and fractured, and a holistic approach is needed to remedy this, and, in effect, reform those societies. However, that's a long-term project, and one that will never have 100% success rate, so punishments and penalties will always be needed.

Einhard · 14-08-2011 05:00PM

My name is URL wrote: »

The way people go on here you'd swear that Ireland and the UK are the only two places in the world with a criminal underclass.

Lots of other places have inefficent, incompetent politicians. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about politics on boards too?

mardybumbum · 14-08-2011 05:00PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Geography fail !

the British Isles > "Ireland and England"

now bend over

Well done.
How you came to the conclusion that the OP is not aware of that fact is beyond me.

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2011 05:05PM

Einhard wrote: »

That's all well and good, but we don't live in an ideal, perfect world, and until we do, we need penalties to for those who engage in criminality. From the outside, society in certain parts of the UK seems extremely disloctaed and fractured, and a holistic approach is needed to remedy this, and, in effect, reform those societies. However, that's a long-term project, and one that will never have 100% success rate, so punishments and penalties will always be needed.

I agree, that's why we have prisons. What I'm saying is when you're dealing with kids who don't understand the world yet, why the f*ck would you give them the mindset of "don't steal because if I get caught I'll be whacked... No chance of getting caught? Well sure why not then" rather than bringing them up to be decent human beings who care about other people?
As I said, I was never caned (nor were the majority of my generation I imagine) and I have never felt inclined to join a looting mob simply because I was brought up with a sense of belonging to the human race with everyone else and not wanting to cause harm to others that I wouldn't want caused to me.

Compliance out of fear isn't good enough, it only creates a society where "not getting caught" becomes paramount rather than "being nice to others".

Redlion · 14-08-2011 05:05PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgR0m-9FmM

My name is URL · 14-08-2011 05:21PM

Einhard wrote: »

Lots of other places have inefficent, incompetent politicians. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about politics on boards too?

Discussion is one thing.. irrational and ill informed rants are quite another. Nothing more than an excuse for some to bleat on about the humiliation they'd like to see dished out to those below them. I doubt crime even comes in to it for a lot of people, just the fact that what they see as a 'skanger' culture exists.

Take away their welfare..
Evict them..
Deport them..
Bate the **** outta them..

not really the most well thought out of ideas on how to reduce crime rates are they?

FetchTheGin · 14-08-2011 05:21PM

Einhard wrote: »

I was watching Question Time on Thursday, and the Tory MP David Davis stated that these peope should take responsibility for their own lives and prospects, rather than blaming society and their situation all the time. In response, a woman in the audience started to angrily denoucne him, demanding if he had any idea of the reality in council estates and the like. To which Davis replied that he did, because he was born and raised in one!

It didn't stop the woman's rant, but it should have. The point is that people shouldn't need the state to hold their hands, and provide outlets for them. Of course it's nice if that happens, but it shouldn't be necessary. In fact, it's generally not necessary, as the fact that only a tiny minority of people living in such conditions actually partook in the riots. You state that there is nothing to do. Are there no sports pitches in Tottenham? No local soccer teams? No libraries? No training courses? Of course there are, but lots of young people choose not to use them. And the more we blame society for the actions of those youths (and ignore incidentally, the majority who lead law abiding, respectful lives in the same circumstances), the more the thugs feel that their actions are legitimate, and the less can be done to resolve things.

2011 is a lot different to the 1960s. Society is a lot different and there are a lot less opportunites and more social pressures.

If there aren't enough positive influences in the home, then there should be plenty outside it. I am not talking about just Tottenham.

FetchTheGin · 14-08-2011 05:23PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Discussion is one thing.. irrational and ill informed rants are quite another. Nothing more than an excuse for some to bleat on about the humiliation they'd like to see dished out to those below them. I doubt crime even comes in to it for a lot of people, just the fact that what they see as a 'skanger' culture exists.

Take away their welfare..
Evict them..
Deport them..
Bate the **** outta them..

not really the most well thought out of ideas on how to reduce crime rates are they?

Nothing worse than rants about rant threads either.

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2011 05:33PM

Here's a random idea: All these gangs of young tweens - why don't the communities encourage them to form a football or rugby club?
Not only would it give them an outlet for their aggression but who knows, it might actually end up in the premiership one day. Most young lads dream at some point or other of playing football professionally, but that's hardly going to happen unless they have a proper team organized, is it?

Sure, these guys gave school the two fingers but something tells me that a football club would be a more attractive proposition, surely it's worth a try at least?

Einhard · 14-08-2011 05:41PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I agree, that's why we have prisons. What I'm saying is when you're dealing with kids who don't understand the world yet, why the f*ck would you give them the mindset of "don't steal because if I get caught I'll be whacked... No chance of getting caught? Well sure why not then" rather than bringing them up to be decent human beings who care about other people?
As I said, I was never caned (nor were the majority of my generation I imagine) and I have never felt inclined to join a looting mob simply because I was brought up with a sense of belonging to the human race with everyone else and not wanting to cause harm to others that I wouldn't want caused to me.

Compliance out of fear isn't good enough, it only creates a society where "not getting caught" becomes paramount rather than "being nice to others".

I agree with you about needing to re-enforce a sense of community and lawfulness amongst the youth of such areas, but at the same time, there will always be those for whom such tactics don't work. No matter how Utopian and harmonious the society, there will always be those who live in the shadows, so to speak. There will always be a need for penalties, both to punish such people, and to deter them in future. If a person's moral fibre isn't pronounced enough for them to abide by the law, then they need to be deterred from breaking it. Prisons are one way of doing this, but they have many problems. Quite often they re-enforce the dislocation that a person feels with society, and act as a University of Criminality. Quite a number of young ex-prisoners take pride in having been inside. So there's clearly a case to be made that other options need to be looked at. And caning, IMO, is worthy of such debate.

My name is URL wrote: »

Discussion is one thing.. irrational and ill informed rants are quite another. Nothing more than an excuse for some to bleat on about the humiliation they'd like to see dished out to those below them. I doubt crime even comes in to it for a lot of people, just the fact that what they see as a 'skanger' culture exists.

Take away their welfare..
Evict them..
Deport them..
Bate the **** outta them..

not really the most well thought out of ideas on how to reduce crime rates are they?

Yeah, I agree that much of the reaction has been sensationalist stuff, and proposals based more on retribution than anythign else, but when all proposals are dismissed as such, without having been aired properly, then nothign changes.

FetchTheGin wrote: »

2011 is a lot different to the 1960s. Society is a lot different and there are a lot less opportunites and more social pressures.

There are less opportunities today then there were in the 60s?

Bipolar Joe · 14-08-2011 05:44PM

Everyone saying "Give them something to do" need to take a step back and remember that some just enjoy making life difficult for other people, like it's their hobby.

Caning, the answer to Ireland and England's scumbag problem

Will caning solve our scumbag problem? 38 votes

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