Caning, the answer to Ireland and England's scumbag problem

Paarse Krokodil

If caning was introduced here would it solve the scumbag problem and yob culture of the British Isles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Malaysia

deathrider

Can't we just shoot them?

Paarse Krokodil

deathrider wrote: »

Can't we just shoot them?

We'd have to leave the EU first

deathrider

We could shoot them too.

FetchTheGin

Youth centres are a good deterrent for young kids, most have nothing to do.

The King of Moo

This scumbag fad is getting very tiresome.

I wish I heard the same kind of invective spouted against the bankers and politicians who have ruined this country.

teol

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Youth centres are a good deterrent for young kids, most have nothing to do.

Scumbag kids have plenty of stuff to do. It's just that their parents couldn't give a toss about them.

FetchTheGin

teol wrote: »

Scumbag kids have plenty of stuff to do. It's just that their parents couldn't give a toss about them.

What do they have to do exactly?

Everything costs money and you will find a lot of these families have very little.

flutterflye

I'd rather cane the people in charge of the system that leads to people becoming 'scumbags'.

Einhard

I'm in two minds aout this tbh. I'd describe myself as a liberal, and some of the reflexive proposals since the riots have been unworkable at best, and downsright stupid at worst. Many people just want to see some punishment meted out, without thinking of the possible consequences of the penalty. However, caning seems like it could have some role to play. The punishment is inflicted on the individual, rather than impacting on family and dependents, as cutting benefits would. It also doesn't leave the individual further disenfrachised, or worse off in the longer term, and therefore more likely to turn to crime, as the latter proposals would. So, i think there is some merit. Perhaps individuals could be given the choice between 6 months in prison, or a lashing. One thing I'd be against though, would be turning such punishments into public spectacles. ]

Having said all that, I'm undecided and open to persuasion either way.

Laisurg

teol wrote: »

Scumbag kids have plenty of stuff to do. It's just that their parents couldn't give a toss about them.

I think it's more of a cycle really, for instance i grew up in finglas and there was this one kid who moved there from a better off area, he was grand quite mannerly and the like and then he started hanging around with a group of older kids in the area who were scum of the earth and shortly after turned into a little scumbag who was getting into trouble left right and center, his parents were grand and all as well, but **** parents can be a cause as well but i think bad influences from the other kids are a more frequent cause.

Caning might work with some kids but could leave others frightened of their teachers and there's always teachers who are just complete pricks who would more than likely take the piss if caning came into effect, even if it's only the principal such as in Malaysia but then again kids normally turn into proper scumbags around the age of 13-15 and they'll have left school by then anyway.

Overheal

In the Short Term - Yes.

Long Term - No.


The Real Problem - A generation that is growing up with the void of Corporal Punishment and a very recessed Catholic orthodoxy has basically bred this chaotic point in time when people are still trying to figure out what works, now that you don't have the Church or the Cane to discipline people defacto. It just takes time to find out what works and this Generation of young people might be 'lost' but the next Generation of younger people will do better than the last, and so on.

The Keystone: The Irish home has not been able to keep up with the challenge of all the recent changes. Kids aren't being raised in constructively as a result. Fix the Homes; Fix the Streets.

policarp

didn't work when I was in school a few moons ago.
Same chaps got whacked time and time again.

Mike 1972

Geography fail !

Paarse Krokodil wrote: »

the scumbag problem and yob culture of the British Isles?

the British Isles > "Ireland and England"

now bend over

Einhard

FetchTheGin wrote: »

What do they have to do exactly?

Everything costs money and you will find a lot of these families have very little.

I was watching Question Time on Thursday, and the Tory MP David Davis stated that these peope should take responsibility for their own lives and prospects, rather than blaming society and their situation all the time. In response, a woman in the audience started to angrily denoucne him, demanding if he had any idea of the reality in council estates and the like. To which Davis replied that he did, because he was born and raised in one!

It didn't stop the woman's rant, but it should have. The point is that people shouldn't need the state to hold their hands, and provide outlets for them. Of course it's nice if that happens, but it shouldn't be necessary. In fact, it's generally not necessary, as the fact that only a tiny minority of people living in such conditions actually partook in the riots. You state that there is nothing to do. Are there no sports pitches in Tottenham? No local soccer teams? No libraries? No training courses? Of course there are, but lots of young people choose not to use them. And the more we blame society for the actions of those youths (and ignore incidentally, the majority who lead law abiding, respectful lives in the same circumstances), the more the thugs feel that their actions are legitimate, and the less can be done to resolve things.

Vercoda

A lot of the problems - and blame - can be laid squarely on the parents.

For example, here in Smithfield in Dublin city centre, there are pretty feral, wild kids running the streets/area at all hours - I've often been walking home at 11pm or so at night, yet seen a group of 6 or 7-year-old kids out on the street, not to mention the SCREAMING and whistling kids constantly creating a racket/disturbance at the Smithfield complex.

Where the hell are their parents? How do they excuse their little kids being free to roam the streets late at night, Or to wander off and disturb an entire community?

When you've got children who haven't even made it past the age of 10 yet, but who are already out roaming the streets, and causing annoyance - well, Who thinks that they're going to have a decent life ahead? Or even a trouble-free one? It shouldn't be the case that you can look at young Dublin children, and already KNOW that they have an underachieving, troublesome life ahead of them - I doubt that the group of 7- and 8-year-old boys who tried to mug me in Smithfield last Christmas will be avoiding prison in another 10 years or so - yet they're a product of their 'family' lives, and not just the environment.

Caning hoodies and scumbags sounds like something some of teh red-top tabloids would come up with - but you'd probably achieve a Lot more, a lot earlier, if you were to cane the parents of these brats instead, already dooming their children to rotten lives because, well, because it's just Easy to do so, right?

After all, it's a lot easier for Some inner-city Dublin parents to let their dead-eyed seven-year-old son or daughter wander around at The Four Courts Luas stop at 11pm than to, you know, care...

Einhard

Overheal wrote: »

The Real Problem - A generation that is growing up with the void of Corporal Punishment and a very recessed Catholic orthodoxy has basically bred this chaotic point in time when people are still trying to figure out what works, now that you don't have the Church or the Cane to discipline people defacto. .

In Tottenham?

flutterflye

Vercoda wrote: »

A lot of the problems - and blame - can be laid squarely on the parents.

And what about the parent's parents?
And the parent's parent's parents?

hatrickpatrick

Punishment simply forces people to behave when there's a chance of getting caught, because they fear the punishment.
That's just not good enough in my view. What we need to do is raise a society which doesn't WANT to do these things because they have empathy and compassion for other people.

In other words, if I was in England I wouldn't have looted or burned anything down because my first thought would have been "wow, that poor shopkeeper is going to be devastated, I feel sorry for him". Compassion and empathy would make me not *WANT* to screw people over in the way the rioters did, because I was brought up with a principle of feeling sorry for others when bad things happen to them.

Where was that compassion with these rioters? We're all human beings, why is it that I (and the vast majority of people) are capable of feeling sorry for others and putting ourselves in the place of those who suffer, and these looters apparently were not?

Basically what I'm saying is, it's a sad state of affairs if the only reason you don't steal from others is because you might get punished for it. We should be focusing on teaching these kids not to WANT to steal from others, because it's unkind and causes hardship to those they steal from.

In other words, we need to teach them to behave because they care about humanity, not because they're afraid of getting whacked.

My name is URL

Oh for fcuk sake.. how many more threads are there going to be about the best way to deal with scumbags before the week is over?

The way people go on here you'd swear that Ireland and the UK are the only two places in the world with a criminal underclass.

Einhard

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Punishment simply forces people to behave when there's a chance of getting caught, because they fear the punishment.
That's just not good enough in my view. What we need to do is raise a society which doesn't WANT to do these things because they have empathy and compassion for other people.

In other words, if I was in England I wouldn't have looted or burned anything down because my first thought would have been "wow, that poor shopkeeper is going to be devastated, I feel sorry for him". Compassion and empathy would make me not *WANT* to screw people over in the way the rioters did, because I was brought up with a principle of feeling sorry for others when bad things happen to them.

Where was that compassion with these rioters? We're all human beings, why is it that I (and the vast majority of people) are capable of feeling sorry for others and putting ourselves in the place of those who suffer, and these looters apparently were not?

Basically what I'm saying is, it's a sad state of affairs if the only reason you don't steal from others is because you might get punished for it. We should be focusing on teaching these kids not to WANT to steal from others, because it's unkind and causes hardship to those they steal from.

In other words, we need to teach them to behave because they care about humanity, not because they're afraid of getting whacked.

That's all well and good, but we don't live in an ideal, perfect world, and until we do, we need penalties to for those who engage in criminality. From the outside, society in certain parts of the UK seems extremely disloctaed and fractured, and a holistic approach is needed to remedy this, and, in effect, reform those societies. However, that's a long-term project, and one that will never have 100% success rate, so punishments and penalties will always be needed.

Einhard

My name is URL wrote: »

The way people go on here you'd swear that Ireland and the UK are the only two places in the world with a criminal underclass.

Lots of other places have inefficent, incompetent politicians. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about politics on boards too?

mardybumbum

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Geography fail !




the British Isles > "Ireland and England"

now bend over

Well done.
How you came to the conclusion that the OP is not aware of that fact is beyond me.

hatrickpatrick

Einhard wrote: »

That's all well and good, but we don't live in an ideal, perfect world, and until we do, we need penalties to for those who engage in criminality. From the outside, society in certain parts of the UK seems extremely disloctaed and fractured, and a holistic approach is needed to remedy this, and, in effect, reform those societies. However, that's a long-term project, and one that will never have 100% success rate, so punishments and penalties will always be needed.

I agree, that's why we have prisons. What I'm saying is when you're dealing with kids who don't understand the world yet, why the f*ck would you give them the mindset of "don't steal because if I get caught I'll be whacked... No chance of getting caught? Well sure why not then" rather than bringing them up to be decent human beings who care about other people?
As I said, I was never caned (nor were the majority of my generation I imagine) and I have never felt inclined to join a looting mob simply because I was brought up with a sense of belonging to the human race with everyone else and not wanting to cause harm to others that I wouldn't want caused to me.

Compliance out of fear isn't good enough, it only creates a society where "not getting caught" becomes paramount rather than "being nice to others".

Redlion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgR0m-9FmM

My name is URL

Einhard wrote: »

Lots of other places have inefficent, incompetent politicians. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about politics on boards too?

Discussion is one thing.. irrational and ill informed rants are quite another. Nothing more than an excuse for some to bleat on about the humiliation they'd like to see dished out to those below them. I doubt crime even comes in to it for a lot of people, just the fact that what they see as a 'skanger' culture exists.

Take away their welfare..
Evict them..
Deport them..
Bate the **** outta them..

not really the most well thought out of ideas on how to reduce crime rates are they?

FetchTheGin

Einhard wrote: »

I was watching Question Time on Thursday, and the Tory MP David Davis stated that these peope should take responsibility for their own lives and prospects, rather than blaming society and their situation all the time. In response, a woman in the audience started to angrily denoucne him, demanding if he had any idea of the reality in council estates and the like. To which Davis replied that he did, because he was born and raised in one!

It didn't stop the woman's rant, but it should have. The point is that people shouldn't need the state to hold their hands, and provide outlets for them. Of course it's nice if that happens, but it shouldn't be necessary. In fact, it's generally not necessary, as the fact that only a tiny minority of people living in such conditions actually partook in the riots. You state that there is nothing to do. Are there no sports pitches in Tottenham? No local soccer teams? No libraries? No training courses? Of course there are, but lots of young people choose not to use them. And the more we blame society for the actions of those youths (and ignore incidentally, the majority who lead law abiding, respectful lives in the same circumstances), the more the thugs feel that their actions are legitimate, and the less can be done to resolve things.

2011 is a lot different to the 1960s. Society is a lot different and there are a lot less opportunites and more social pressures.

If there aren't enough positive influences in the home, then there should be plenty outside it. I am not talking about just Tottenham.

FetchTheGin

My name is URL wrote: »

Discussion is one thing.. irrational and ill informed rants are quite another. Nothing more than an excuse for some to bleat on about the humiliation they'd like to see dished out to those below them. I doubt crime even comes in to it for a lot of people, just the fact that what they see as a 'skanger' culture exists.

Take away their welfare..
Evict them..
Deport them..
Bate the **** outta them..

not really the most well thought out of ideas on how to reduce crime rates are they?

Nothing worse than rants about rant threads either.

hatrickpatrick

Here's a random idea: All these gangs of young tweens - why don't the communities encourage them to form a football or rugby club?
Not only would it give them an outlet for their aggression but who knows, it might actually end up in the premiership one day. Most young lads dream at some point or other of playing football professionally, but that's hardly going to happen unless they have a proper team organized, is it?

Sure, these guys gave school the two fingers but something tells me that a football club would be a more attractive proposition, surely it's worth a try at least?

Einhard

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I agree, that's why we have prisons. What I'm saying is when you're dealing with kids who don't understand the world yet, why the f*ck would you give them the mindset of "don't steal because if I get caught I'll be whacked... No chance of getting caught? Well sure why not then" rather than bringing them up to be decent human beings who care about other people?
As I said, I was never caned (nor were the majority of my generation I imagine) and I have never felt inclined to join a looting mob simply because I was brought up with a sense of belonging to the human race with everyone else and not wanting to cause harm to others that I wouldn't want caused to me.

Compliance out of fear isn't good enough, it only creates a society where "not getting caught" becomes paramount rather than "being nice to others".

I agree with you about needing to re-enforce a sense of community and lawfulness amongst the youth of such areas, but at the same time, there will always be those for whom such tactics don't work. No matter how Utopian and harmonious the society, there will always be those who live in the shadows, so to speak. There will always be a need for penalties, both to punish such people, and to deter them in future. If a person's moral fibre isn't pronounced enough for them to abide by the law, then they need to be deterred from breaking it. Prisons are one way of doing this, but they have many problems. Quite often they re-enforce the dislocation that a person feels with society, and act as a University of Criminality. Quite a number of young ex-prisoners take pride in having been inside. So there's clearly a case to be made that other options need to be looked at. And caning, IMO, is worthy of such debate.

My name is URL wrote: »

Discussion is one thing.. irrational and ill informed rants are quite another. Nothing more than an excuse for some to bleat on about the humiliation they'd like to see dished out to those below them. I doubt crime even comes in to it for a lot of people, just the fact that what they see as a 'skanger' culture exists.

Take away their welfare..
Evict them..
Deport them..
Bate the **** outta them..

not really the most well thought out of ideas on how to reduce crime rates are they?

Yeah, I agree that much of the reaction has been sensationalist stuff, and proposals based more on retribution than anythign else, but when all proposals are dismissed as such, without having been aired properly, then nothign changes.

FetchTheGin wrote: »

2011 is a lot different to the 1960s. Society is a lot different and there are a lot less opportunites and more social pressures.

There are less opportunities today then there were in the 60s?

Bipolar Joe

Everyone saying "Give them something to do" need to take a step back and remember that some just enjoy making life difficult for other people, like it's their hobby.

EarlERizer

Overheal wrote: »

The Real Problem - A generation that is growing up with the void of Corporal Punishment and a very recessed Catholic orthodoxy has basically bred this chaotic point in time when people are still trying to figure out what works, now that you don't have the Church or the Cane to discipline people defacto. It just takes time to find out what works and this Generation of young people might be 'lost' but the next Generation of younger people will do better than the last, and so on.

The Keystone: The Irish home has not been able to keep up with the challenge of all the recent changes. Kids aren't being raised in constructively as a result. Fix the Homes; Fix the Streets.

Hear hear, we should drag ourselves backward in time and return to sadistic bastards belting kids for allsorts and when thats deemed not to be working we'll pack them off to borstals where they can be the sex toys of sick depraved men of the cloth and have their scumbag gene buggered from them!

Afterall it's well known Britian & Ireland had no scumbags before the abolishment of corporal punishment or before the perverts of the church were exposed. :rolleyes:


I'm not against these little sh!ts been dealt a harsh lesson,they're a symptom of bad parenting,bad schooling & a flawed system, it's got feck all to do with how things are today,recession or not we've always had 'scumbags', the reason things are more amplified nowadays is because of political correctness and the molly coddling that goes on.

If a disadvantaged youth has the opportunity to grab himself an ipad,a laptop,a phone,some trainers,some new clothes etc etc with the only threat for been caught being a slap on the wrist and a few hours community service (because he's actually a victim too) he'll jump at the chance.

Successive self serving greedy governements both here & in the UK have cultivated this scumbag culture with their turning a blind eye stance on disadvantaged area's which has resulted in todays scumbag / gang culture.To the powers that be it's all about statistics,numbers & figures and £ € $.

No kid is born bad,the enviroment they grow up in determines how they turn out,like I said,bad parenting,bad schooling,flawed system lead to their state of hopelessness.

I strongly believe in National Service,it served the UK (and elsewhere I'm sure) very well in days gone by,if a kid leaves school for whatever reason and is not working or making a contribution of some sort to society, then a spell in National Service wouldn't go amiss, at the very least they would emerge from their time a better person.

teol

I don't agree with capital punishment but removing their benefits is a good compromise.

London riots: Wandsworth council moves to evict mother of charged boy

Local authority is first to issue eviction notice to a tenant in wake of the riots despite accused not having been convicted

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/london-riots-wandsworth-council-eviction

Mike 1972

My name is URL wrote: »

Take away their welfare..
Evict them..
Deport them..
Bate the **** outta them..

not really the most well thought out of ideas on how to reduce crime rates are they?

Ummm you left out curfews and conscription

mawk

I'm not in favour of caning but am totally in favour of electro shock punishments. They could leave a digital record of who and when was punishment administered to as well as perhaps a drop down menu allowing the teacher to record the reason for the punishment.
As well as bring traceable, the punishments could be pre calibrated to a specific intensity and duration, meaning a teacher can't act the vindictive prick.
If any school boards are reading this I'll happily consult on the prototype

Fremen

For christ's sake. Why does every thicko on the street have some kind of magical quick fix for crime. Cane them... ship them to some other country... stick them in boot camp.

YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER! Can I say that any louder? Yes.

You don't have the answer.

Not just the OP. Everyone. There probably is no quick fix. The first step here is to admit that we don't really know shít about why crime happens. One of the only things we can do is look at places with low crime rates and try to figure out why.

Better yet, conduct experiments and pool data. Run randomized controlled trials to find out what, if anything, actually works. Of course, this will never happen, because first the people in power would have to admit that no-one knows a damn thing about prevention of crime.

Kaneda_

Society isnt that broken.

EarlERizer

Fremen wrote: »

For christ's sake. Why does every thicko on the street have some kind of magical quick fix for crime. Cane them... ship them to some other country...
stick them in boot camp.

YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER! Can I say that any louder? Yes.

You don't have the answer.

Not just the OP. Everyone. There probably is no quick fix. The first step here is to admit that we don't really know shít about why crime happens. One of the only things we can do is look at places with low crime rates and try to figure out why.

Better yet, conduct experiments and pool data. Run randomized controlled trials to find out what, if anything, actually works. Of course, this will never happen, because first the people in power would have to admit that no-one knows a damn thing about prevention of crime.

I didn't quite hear that but I read it loud bold & clear!

Prevention is better than cure, true that! in fairness though,we do have some understanding of why crime happens,however some in society have their heads in the sand or are in denial regarding such things.

Toby Take a Bow

It's been going on for longer than all of you think: Linky Most generations seem to recall a (nonexistent) time when the youth behaved and things were better. Our generation is now going on about it, and in twenty years time our kids will be doing exactly the same.

It states that there is an increase in 'yoof' problems, but for people calling for a reintroduction of beating it basically states that crime associated with youths has been increasing since the 30s.

Also, England had the Mods and Rockers riots back in the 60s. Lots of beatings of kids back then.

Einhard

Fremen wrote: »

For christ's sake. Why does every thicko on the street have some kind of magical quick fix for crime. Cane them... ship them to some other country... stick them in boot camp.

YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER! Can I say that any louder? Yes.

You don't have the answer.

And if we don't discuss it, we'll never have the answer.

that we don't really know shít about why crime happens.

That's not true at all. There's plenty of evidence to suggest why crimes happen, and why certain communities and societies are more vlunerable to crime than others.

Better yet, conduct experiments and pool data. Run randomized controlled trials to find out what, if anything, actually works. Of course, this will never happen, because first the people in power would have to admit that no-one knows a damn thing about prevention of crime.

Again, this isn't true. Crime rates vary dramatically all over the world, which suggests in itself that some societies have more success in preventing crime than others. Strong social cohesion, together with parental responsibility, opportunities and outlets for young people, and clear penalties for ciminality all contribute to lowering crime rates.

flutterflye

Freman- Thank you!!!

I went on full scale rant mode at my friends the other day saying the exact same thing, and they didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

Fremen

Einhard wrote: »

[/SIZE]

And if we don't discuss it, we'll never have the answer.

I wasn't really trying to say that we shouldn't discuss it. More that people shouldn't look for a quick fix like caning, the death penalty, etc...
If people could be a little more scientific and a little less reactionary and hot-headed, we might actually be able to make some progress on the problem.

Maybe I used a bit too much hyperbole, but if crime was properly understood, it wouldn't be a problem.

dsmythy

The King of Moo wrote: »

This scumbag fad is getting very tiresome.

I wish I heard the same kind of invective spouted against the bankers and politicians who have ruined this country.

Have you not been reading After Hours threads on 'bankers'?

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Punishment simply forces people to behave when there's a chance of getting caught, because they fear the punishment.
That's just not good enough in my view. What we need to do is raise a society which doesn't WANT to do these things because they have empathy and compassion for other people.

In other words, if I was in England I wouldn't have looted or burned anything down because my first thought would have been "wow, that poor shopkeeper is going to be devastated, I feel sorry for him". Compassion and empathy would make me not *WANT* to screw people over in the way the rioters did, because I was brought up with a principle of feeling sorry for others when bad things happen to them.

Where was that compassion with these rioters? We're all human beings, why is it that I (and the vast majority of people) are capable of feeling sorry for others and putting ourselves in the place of those who suffer, and these looters apparently were not?

Basically what I'm saying is, it's a sad state of affairs if the only reason you don't steal from others is because you might get punished for it. We should be focusing on teaching these kids not to WANT to steal from others, because it's unkind and causes hardship to those they steal from.

In other words, we need to teach them to behave because they care about humanity, not because they're afraid of getting whacked.

That's what parents are for. If not parents then the extended family. If not extended family then some form of role model. Restorative justice, big brother/sister schemes, not necessarily from the all powerful government but voluntary projects. A healthy dose of intolerance to certain behaviour. And of course hatrickpatrick's warm hugs

Herb Powell

You'd want to be extremely naive to believe caning will solve anything

johngalway

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Youth centres are a good deterrent for young kids, most have nothing to do.

A good thing for kids? Maybe.

A good deterrent? Not a snowballs chance. The young Irish Scumbag will see their YC as nothing more than a place to have a laugh then as a rallying point for his scumbag mates so they can wreak havoc as a group after the YC has shut up shop for the night.

Taken from experience.

Kaneda_ wrote: »

Society isnt that broken.

It is in certain areas.

Nodin

deathrider wrote: »

Can't we just shoot them?

Canes are narrow bastards and would be hard to pick off.

whatswhat

policarp wrote: »

didn't work when I was in school a few moons ago.
Same chaps got whacked time and time again.

We must be from a different era, cos it most certainly worked when I was at school, seems to me it all went downhill when it stopped!

lucozader

When I was in school teachers could hit students. The problem was that they never hit the scumbags or bad kids. They would only beat the quiet ones that they knew would not fight back. Also they beat kids for being poor or for being stupid or just because they were in a bad mood/hungover/nasty.

I think caning needs to be related in some way to discipline and justice. Neither of which had anything to do with caning in the past.

Morag

Canning?
Are you fecking kidding me?
There used to be a solution, the answer to this in previous centuries was a nice war.

dsmythy

Sharrow wrote: »

Canning?
Are you fecking kidding me?
There used to be a solution, the answer to this in previous centuries was a nice war.

The sooner they are shoved into cans the better.

Nodin

Sharrow wrote: »

Canning?
Are you fecking kidding me?
There used to be a solution, the answer to this in previous centuries was a nice war.

Really? This lot weren't too bothered by the various colonial enterprises at the time
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2008/10/20/201008_scuttlers_interview_feature.shtml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/4029760/The-Gangs-of-Manchester-the-Story-of-the-Scuttlers-Britains-First-Youth-Cult-by-Andrew-Davies-review.html
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gangs-Manchester-Story-Scuttlers-Britains/dp/1903854814