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London Riots

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Comments

  • #212
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    mike65 wrote: »
    At this rate several will be dead by morning I'd imagine. There might just be enough of a pause (even the scum of the earth get tired) to declare a state of emergency with the attendant powers through COBRA to have an armed curfew. They should fly over 500-800 troops from NI and senior PSNI tacticians, they'd be better at this sort of thing than using local units.

    There is no way they will deploy the army. Firstly, then they are the same, optically at least, as Syria and Libya. Two, there goes the Olympics. Three, middle England won't stand for it.

    Get your Rambo fantasies out of your system now. They will never cut the army loose on London streets.


  • #213
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    caseyann wrote: »
    Its a form of discrimination is what it is.If you dont like one policeman for a reason then thats fair enough(if that individual battered you).To blame a whole body of police force is discrimination for doing the job i personally would never do.
    He ran his fault.

    So running away from the police is a justifiable reason to be shot? And the cover up afterwards? And the corruption exposed by the NOTW scandal? And the death of Smiley Culture? And 400 people from ethnic minorities who died in police custody over the last two decades? The list goes on and on. The police are unfit for purpose in my opinion. They exist only to protect the property rights of big business and to supress any dissent from the great unwashed masses.


  • #214
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    caseyann wrote: »
    All of them? :eek:
    i'd say so yes.


  • #215
    calex71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,126 ✭✭✭✭calex71


    digme wrote: »
    lol and the army are where?

    Can the army be deployed against civilians? what powers would they have ?

    I ask because I don't know, not to have a go at you.


  • #216
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Watching out for IEDS in a far off land.
    is that some sort of sick joke?


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  • #217
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Ricardo G wrote: »
    Wow, thats some list :rolleyes:

    Our own Gardai have made numerous mistakes over the years, does that mean every one of them are corrupt ?? And just because you had a bad experience with ONE that does'nt make the rest a bad bunch.

    Where did I say I had a bad experience with one Guard? I'm a political activist, I've seen more police thuggery than just the one thank you very much ;) And I'm not arguing the police are corrupt. I'm arguing against the police. Their very existance.


  • #218
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    digme wrote: »
    is that some sort of sick joke?

    He has a point. The British army is very stretched already. Do you think they have the manpower to lock London down, even if they wanted to get involved in a policing action?

    As we saw in the north, or even Paris, once troops hit the streets, they take a long time to come back off them.


  • #219
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    calex71 wrote: »
    Can the army be deployed against civilians? what powers would they have ?

    I ask because I don't know, not to have a go at you.
    I don't know.


  • #220
    V_Moth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    What's so wrong with not liking the police? It's a valid point of view informed in my case by personal experience. There are a large number of people in society who mistrust and dislike the police. Who believe that communities should police themselves or that some alternative form of policing is desirable. The idea that the police are trustworthy and beyond reproach is a complete fallacy. Just ask the family of John Charles de Menezes or Frank McBrearty what their opinion of the police is.

    Indeed. Policing, as does Counter-terrorism must always stick to the following rules:
    -Stay within the law
    -Respond with appropriate force to events

    Arguments saying that the rioters are "animals" and should be treated extrajudically ("normal law is too slow"; "shoot them all") such as using internment are not the solution. Once the government and/or police forces stray beyond those two rules, they loose all legitimacy.


  • #221
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,143 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I am asking for the police to DO THEIR JOBS

    You make it sound like I am odd for having that opinion.

    No youre not. Youve got a childish view on things - youre unable to accept the word of Met police officers, but you claim to be happy to unleash them with batons and riot shields on a crowd composed of schoolchildren - to, I quote "knock the ****e out of them".

    Most people who would call for the police to go in and deal with the rioters would presume the police are to be trused to make the right calls, most of the time. We'd accept that in difficult situations, bad things can happen and we'd acknowledge that as part of the call to send in the riot police. Wed view those bad things within the context within which they occured.

    You on the other hand want to attack a group of schoolkids with a corrupt and useless group who you think go round taking bribes and assassinating people. Thats a very, very odd opinion.


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  • #222
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    He has a point. The British army is very stretched already. Do you think they have the manpower to lock London down, even if they wanted to get involved in a policing action?

    As we saw in the north, or even Paris, once troops hit the streets, they take a long time to come back off them.
    he said looking out for ieds as if to say they are the good guys lol
    Might of picked it up wrong


  • #223
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    V_Moth wrote: »
    Indeed. Policing, as does Counter-terrorism must always stick to the following rules:
    -Stay within the law
    -Respond with appropriate force to events

    Arguments saying that the rioters are "animals" and should be treated extrajudically ("normal law is too slow"; "shoot them all") such as using internment are not the solution. Once the government and/or police forces stray beyond those two rules, they loose all legitimacy.

    And my point is the Met have failed time and time again to do the two things above, hence they are getting it tight all over the town. They are a failed institution.


  • #224
    calex71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,126 ✭✭✭✭calex71


    A Dub on skynews now talking form the scene


  • #225
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    There is no way they will deploy the army. Firstly, then they are the same, optically at least, as Syria and Libya. Two, there goes the Olympics. Three, middle England won't stand for it.

    Get your Rambo fantasies out of your system now. They will never cut the army loose on London streets.

    I did actually say they wouldn't on the After Hours thread (1926 was the last time something like that happened I think) but I'm starting to suspect this may be the next example of it happening.


  • #226
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Sand wrote: »
    No youre not. Youve got a childish view on things - youre unable to accept the word of Met police officers, but you claim to be happy to unleash them with batons and riot shields on a crowd composed of schoolchildren.

    Most people who would call for the police to go in and deal with the rioters would presume the police are to be trused to make the right calls, most of the time. We'd accept that in difficult situations, bad things can happen and we'd acknowledge that as part of the call to send in the riot police.

    You on the other hand want to attack a group of schoolkids with a corrupt and useless group who you think go round taking bribes and assassinating people. Thats a very, very odd opinion.

    Call me old fashioned, but I think the job of the police is to respond to criminality when they see it in an even handed and consistent manner, within the law and human rights.

    The Met cannot do the above. They need to be reformed from scratch.


  • #227
    Ricardo G
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭Ricardo G


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Where did I say I had a bad experience with one Guard? I'm a political activist, I've seen more police thuggery than just the one thank you very much ;) And I'm not arguing the police are corrupt. I'm arguing against the police. Their very existance.

    If someone was trying to break into your house, who would you contact??
    If you were being held hostage, who would you expect to save you??
    If you had a minor road accaident, who would you contact??

    Without their very existence the world would be in chaos.


  • #228
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    calex71 wrote: »
    Can the army be deployed against civilians? what powers would they have ?

    I ask because I don't know, not to have a go at you.

    There is rumours on BBC apparently that army will be deployed.


  • #229
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Where did I say I had a bad experience with one Guard? I'm a political activist, I've seen more police thuggery than just the one thank you very much ;) And I'm not arguing the police are corrupt. I'm arguing against the police. Their very existance.

    I'm going to regret asking but if their are no police who do you go to when some piece of sh1t robs your home? Or do you believe property is theft (I note you are a commie)?


  • #230
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    digme wrote: »
    is that some sort of sick joke?
    Why would you think that?

    It is basically a point that the Army is fighting a war already. This is a police matter.


  • #231
    ben.schlomo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,887 ✭✭✭✭ben.schlomo


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Where did I say I had a bad experience with one Guard? I'm a political activist, I've seen more police thuggery than just the one thank you very much ;) And I'm not arguing the police are corrupt. I'm arguing against the police. Their very existance.
    What would you have in their place?????


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  • #232
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Ricardo G wrote: »
    If someone was trying to break into your house, who would you contact??
    If you were being held hostage, who would you expect to save you??
    If you had a minor road accaident, who would you contact??

    Without their very existence the world would be in chaos.

    So the police always existed? Throughout the one million years of human existance? What are you smoking? The police are a relatively modern invention. One might say modern police forces sprung up just after the birth of capitalism.

    I believe that communities can deal criminality. AS for being taken hostage, I have no idea who would want to take me hostage. And if I had a minor road accident I'd go to a hospital?


  • #233
    The Volt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Electing a Tory government never ends well, does it? A 20% cut in the overall police force speaks for itself. Lessons to be learnt here.


  • #234
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Why would you think that?

    It is basically a point that the Army is fighting a war already. This is a police matter.
    I'm not sure why you put the word in capitals.London is absolutely massive.


  • #235
    JOB93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭JOB93


    coronaextra wrote: »
    Typical. Still playing the race card.

    Step by step guide to getting on in life:

    Step 1: Buy an alarm clock,

    Step 2: Get up and go to school,

    Step 3: Get a job.

    These are the steps taken by people who WANT to get on in life.

    I have done theses things and don't have a job, I'm pretty pissed off because if this.


  • #236
    calex71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,126 ✭✭✭✭calex71


    Just from some of the footage sky / bbc have shown there tonight, it seems to be lads of 14/15 doing most of the looting etc. Their parents have much to answer for imo.


  • #237
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,143 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Call me old fashioned, but I think the job of the police is to respond to criminality when they see it in an even handed and consistent manner, within the law and human rights.

    The Met cannot do the above. They need to be reformed from scratch.

    So, to confirm, you want to send this force which you believe cannot respond to criminality in an even handed and consistent manner, and cannot do so within the law and human rights in to knock the ****e out of schoolkids?

    Thats how ludicrous your position is.

    It is however the signal the police commanders have received loud and clear and they are very rationally avoiding taking any action which might hurt their careers.

    So we're back to sending in the social workers to deal with the rioters. Let me know how that turns out.


  • #238
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,647 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    So the police always existed? Throughout the one million years of human existance? What are you smoking? The police are a relatively modern invention. One might say modern police forces sprung up just after the birth of capitalism.

    I believe that communities can deal criminality. AS for being taken hostage, I have no idea who would want to take me hostage. And if I had a minor road accident I'd go to a hospital?

    You are having a ****ing laugh, right? The single most important aspect of any civilised society is law and order; without it chaos rules. Police enforce law and order, and only then do we survive and move on and live and prosper.

    What has one million years ago got to do with today, yesterday or the day before?


  • #239
    Ricardo G
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭Ricardo G


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    So the police always existed? Throughout the one million years of human existance? What are you smoking? The police are a relatively modern invention. One might say modern police forces sprung up just after the birth of capitalism.

    I believe that communities can deal criminality. AS for being taken hostage, I have no idea who would want to take me hostage. And if I had a minor road accident I'd go to a hospital?

    With smart ass answers like that its little wonder activists see a batton or two


  • #240
    V_Moth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    Voltwad wrote: »
    Electing a Tory government never ends well, does it? A 20% cut in the overall police force speaks for itself. Lessons to be learnt here.

    +1.

    As an aside, who in the current Irish government thought it would be a great idea to merge the Departments responsible for the Army and the Gardai? Potentially giving that much power to one person is just irresponsible. The Armed Forces and Police Forces MUST always be administered seperately!


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  • #241
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    digme wrote: »
    I'm not sure why you put the word in capitals.London is absolutely massive.
    I know but you can't ask for the Army to be stretched even more. At the end of the day, if the police in London can't stop young kids going around and burning huge buildings to the ground, then you have to ask serious questions.

    And perhaps this is a sign that London's police really has never been that good.


This discussion has been closed.
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