London Riots

walshb · 08-08-2011 11:14PM

sink wrote: »

Race is not some god defined absolute. Race is a slight variation based on geographical separation of a population over a length of time. We all share the same ancestors. The races only started separating 20,000 years ago when the first homo sapiens left mother Africa, but the human race stretches back 200,000 years. Now that the boundaries of geography have been overcome, over the next few centuries the races will gradually merge together and that is completely natural and completely unstoppable.

Never said they would not come toghether. I am saying that for the past many many years, the "mixing" has not been harmonious. And, one can push and push for it, but it won't in my lifetime ever be stable.

V_Moth · 08-08-2011 11:16PM

Well, the events in the last 48 hours have certainly proved a theory I have long held. See 2:30 in the clip below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGNFmugLS4

Wherever there is repression or deprivation, this kind of thing is always likely to happen. Race is irrelevant in such events. [Remember Greece? Remember the '68 Paris riots?]

The only way to calm the situation would be for senior politicians to visit the area tomorrow and hold a public meeting - to show leadership and a real commitment to the area. Increasing the police presence, especially in riot gear and/or sending in armed forces only will lead to further destabilisation.

PS: Some of the contributions to this thread have an completely unacceptable and should be removed.

Sand · 08-08-2011 11:18PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Pretty much.

Do people who think the police are doing such a 'great' job really think that looting would have gone on unabated on the King's Road for twelve hours? If so, there's a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

Between the hysteria over kettling and various public disorder offences in London previously the public, media and politicians were very clear that they didnt want a tough law and order style police force. Instead they wanted community policing and youth outreach programs.

Given such clear signals, it would be an exceptionally brave police commander who would send in a riot squad with appropriate instructions to restore law and order. Hed be torn to shreds in the aftermath of a single wounded child, let alone a death. Look at the Mark Duggan case - the guy was armed, resisted arrest and seems to have been an extremely dodgy character and already theres the assumption he was somehow assasinated by the cops.

Send in the social workers. Let them restore law and order.

Ricardo G · 08-08-2011 11:19PM

walshb wrote: »

Never said they would not come toghether. I am saying that for the past many many years, the "mixing" has not been harmonious. And, one can push and push for it, but it won't in my lifetime ever be stable.

As above, its not rocket science here folks !! How often do we see a complete 50/50 split of races living in one area ?? It does'nt happen because, muslims live in one area, blacks in another etc etc. This does'nt happen by accident

Sand · 08-08-2011 11:21PM

V_Moth wrote: »

The only way to calm the situation would be for senior politicians to visit the area tomorrow and hold a public meeting - to show leadership and a real commitment to the area. Increasing the police presence, especially in riot gear and/or sending in armed forces only will lead to further destabilisation

The people engaged in this rioting couldnt give a **** about some senior politicians leadership or commitment. Youve got a tired, clapped out view of proceedings. Have you checked with the local familys and businesses if they wanted an increased police presence?

OhNoYouDidn't · 08-08-2011 11:21PM

Sand wrote: »

Between the hysteria over kettling and various public disorder offences in London previously the public, media and politicians were very clear that they didnt want a tough law and order style police force. Instead they wanted community policing and youth outreach programs.

Given such clear signals, it would be an exceptionally brave police commander who would send in a riot squad with appropriate instructions to restore law and order. Hed be torn to shreds in the aftermath of a single wounded child, let alone a death. Look at the Mark Duggan case - the guy was armed, resisted arrest and seems to have been an extremely dodgy character and already theres the assumption he was somehow assasinated by the cops.

Send in the social workers. Let them restore law and order.

And they wanted basic respect for human rights and accountability.

Don't come the fool saying the people of London deserve the place burning because they object to Brazilians getting riddled with bullets on the train or kettling of schoolkids who got caught up in a protest. The Met are a complete shambles, have been since Jack the Ripper.

fatalll · 08-08-2011 11:23PM

These riots are not a race thing
this is just a part of the community that are scumbags...looters, robbers, criminals..
they just want to get things for free and they see their oppertunity...
i think they need a good hiding, and to be honest they dont care about burning people in their flats, so i think they should be thrown in by the cops if this happens...

I think a marshall law should be introduced..
anyone out after 8pm should be arrested and if they resist the police should be able to use force....

they injured police tonight and probably innocent people too..
burned peoples hard earned property..
Its sick

it will happen in developed countries until force is allowed to be used..but you will have left wing liberals saying its the police who caused this..

the police do a good job...and this is the thanks they get

digme · 08-08-2011 11:23PM

Yardie wrote: »

West Indian woman tells it as it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18EmYGGpYI

Trying to link this to race is missing the point completely. People are products of their environments regardless of whether they are African/Asian/Caucasian etc

People tend to change their environments which reflects on their intelligence. Look at japan after the tsumnai,and look at Haiti. Enough said.
I don't blame some people for wanting to riot, they're lives are sh!t,they feel dissatisfied, unfulfilled and looked down upon.Sad reflection of why these ghettos will always mess up peoples minds,look at limerick,it's the same thing.

walshb · 08-08-2011 11:24PM

Ricardo G wrote: »

As above, its not rocket science here folks !! How often do we see a complete 50/50 split of races living in one area ?? It does'nt happen because, muslims live in one area, blacks in another etc etc. This does'nt happen by accident

So true. We aren't that far ahead of animals. Anyone ever see lions hanging out with tigers, leopards, dogs etc?

Crows flying with Seagulls?

Ali,an idol of mine, spoke about this with Parkinson.

Parky butted in and said, "yes, but we have intelligence," and Ali retorted, "so what's our excuse then?" Brilliant.

caseyann · 08-08-2011 11:25PM

fatalll wrote: »

These riots are not a race thing
this is just a part of the community that are scumbags...looters, robbers, criminals..
they just want to get things for free and they see their oppertunity...
i think they need a good hiding, and to be honest they dont care about burning people in their flats, so i think they should be thrown in by the cops if this happens...

I think a marshall law should be introduced..
anyone out after 8pm should be arrested and if they resist the police should be able to use force....

they injured police tonight and probably innocent people too..
burned peoples hard earned property..
Its sick

it will happen in developed countries until force is allowed to be used..but you will have left eing liverals saying its the police who caused this..

the police do a good job...and this is the thanks they get

Great post.But as usual some people will blame the police on the ground who are putting their own lives at risk.
Some 27 hours with no sleep last i heard.

OhNoYouDidn't · 08-08-2011 11:27PM

fatalll wrote: »

the police do a good job...and this is the thanks they get

ALL the media commentary and politicians statements are alluding that the Met are **** at their jobs and apologising to the family of the man they killed in questionable circumstances.

Ricardo G · 08-08-2011 11:27PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And they wanted basic respect for human rights and accountability.

Don't come the fool saying the people of London deserve the place burning because they object to Brazilians getting riddled with bullets on the train or kettling of schoolkids who got caught up in a protest. The Met are a complete shambles, have been since Jack the Ripper.

How can you respect a community that loots local business and set fires, threatening lives (of their own people) ?? As for human rights, they know their rights but use racism as an excuse and always will. How many white people are shot everyday by Police?? are they all race related too?? BE REAL

V_Moth · 08-08-2011 11:28PM

The majority of riots similar to this are caused by an absence of leadership. The only thing that will stop this is a determined show of leadership (see NORWAY not so long ago) + a careful investigation into both the police officers involved and the thugs who looted and started the fires.

This is now day three and already this rioting has spread to at least two more cities. My point was not some theoretical bs, "tired worldview" if you will, it was about solving this mess. Whats your solution?

Monty Burnz · 08-08-2011 11:28PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think that is a bit shallow a reading of it. People are angry at a system that has failed them

TBH, I don't think the feral youth even know that there is a system. They know f*** all about anything.

southsiderosie · 08-08-2011 11:29PM

Sand wrote: »

Between the hysteria over kettling and various public disorder offences in London previously the public, media and politicians were very clear that they didnt want a tough law and order style police force. Instead they wanted community policing and youth outreach programs.

Given such clear signals, it would be an exceptionally brave police commander who would send in a riot squad with appropriate instructions to restore law and order. Hed be torn to shreds in the aftermath of a single wounded child, let alone a death. Look at the Mark Duggan case - the guy was armed, resisted arrest and seems to have been an extremely dodgy character and already theres the assumption he was somehow assasinated by the cops.

Send in the social workers. Let them restore law and order.

There is a difference between cracking heads and not having any boots on the ground whatsoever, and that is what has happened in many of these areas. That would NOT have been the case had there been looting in post areas of London, PC police be damned.

The assumptions around Duggan's death were largely due to the Met's past handling of civilian deaths, most notably the unarmed 'terrorist' Brazilian man they murdered in the Tube a few years ago. Unfortunately, the doubts that many people had about the original incident in Tottingham seem to have been somewhat legitimized by the fact that only police-issue bullets were found at the scene.

Finally, the Met's idea of 'community policing' in these neighborhoods has been to have two community liasion officers and two assigned officers. They don't have regular officers on a beat who maintain public order, and they do little to noting to address the kind of youth anti-social behavior that holds much of the rest of the community hostage. While I would agree that striking a balance is hard, at the end of the day it has to be done because the real victims here are the decent people who make up the majority in these neighborhoods, but are stuck in-between a police force that they do not entirely trust and thugs who can make their lives miserable.

Spudmonkey · 08-08-2011 11:29PM

Stupid thread is stupid.

How the angle that this is somehow as a response to the killing of the Mark Duggan is frankly beyond me. This is nothing more than petty thugs out to cause mayhem.

Ridiculous.

OhNoYouDidn't · 08-08-2011 11:31PM

Ricardo G wrote: »

How can you respect a community that loots local business and set fires, threatening lives (of their own people) ?? As for human rights, they know their rights but use racism as an excuse and always will. How many white people are shot everyday by Police?? are they all race related too?? BE REAL

southsiderosie · 08-08-2011 11:31PM

caseyann wrote: »

Great post.But as usual some people will blame the police on the ground who are putting their own lives at risk.
Some 27 hours with no sleep last i heard.

caseyann, if cops don't want to deal with violent people, riots, and mayhem, then they need to go work in a supermarket or something. Given the current economic situation, I am sure there would be many willing to take their place.

And I see you haven't addressed the points raised by the Indo article at all. Surprise, surprise.

fatalll · 08-08-2011 11:32PM

V_Moth wrote: »

The majority of riots similar to this are caused by an absence of leadership. The only thing that will stop this is a determined show of leadership (see NORWAY not so long ago) + a careful investigation into both the police officers involved and the thugs who looted and started the fires.

This is now day three and already this rioting has spread to at least two more cities. My point was not some theoretical bs, "tired worldview" if you will, it was about solving this mess. Whats your solution?

for some it should be .. shoot them....
to be honest its the way they are brought up too...so their parents should be held responsible..

crack down on petty crime and the bigger stuff will be stopped eventually, like NY City, ok its not perfect but alot better than it used to be

Sand · 08-08-2011 11:32PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And they wanted basic respect for human rights and accountability......or kettling of schoolkids who got caught up in a protest.

Given the age profile of the rioters, are you calling for heavy police tactics against schoolkids? Either they stand off and let things burn out, or they go in and restore law and order.

Its a childish stance to simultaneosly complaining about the police standing off the rioters, yet being opposed to them using force to restore law and order. You might be obsessed with the rights of the rioters, but the people living in those areas also have a right to leave in peace without fear of being killed or burnt out of their homes - rights which are being denied to them by those rioters.

Now either, you arent willing to support the police in doing their job or you are. The message has been very clearly communicated to police in the UK that they will be crucified if they make a mistake, so the very rational response is to stand off and do nothing for fear of making a mistake that might end a career or result in police casualties.

Like I said, send in the social workers. Let them restore law and order.

fatalll · 08-08-2011 11:32PM

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Stupid thread is stupid.

How the angle that this is somehow as a response to the killing of the Mark Duggan is frankly beyond me. This is nothing more than petty thugs out to cause mayhem.

Ridiculous.

I agree

davoxx · 08-08-2011 11:33PM

walshb wrote: »

Never said they would not come toghether. I am saying that for the past many many years, the "mixing" has not been harmonious. And, one can push and push for it, but it won't in my lifetime ever be stable.

that's the spirit, never give up hope!! we need another country for england to rape and pillage bring civilisation to and then we can ship all these fecking 'trouble makers' there and call it australia, err uk2 ... or something like that.

it's simple to make it "harmonious", tell the queen to give back what she stole donate her hard earned cash to the poor countries in the world, and these heinous foreigners will leave faster than the British/Irish going to America/Australia ...

V_Moth · 08-08-2011 11:33PM

Sand wrote: »

Given the age profile of the rioters, are you calling for heavy police tactics against schoolkids? Either they stand off and let things burn out, or they go in and restore law and order.

Its a childish stance to simultaneosly complaining about the police standing off the rioters, yet being opposed to them using force to restore law and order. You might be obsessed with the rights of the rioters, but the people living in those areas also have a right to leave in peace without fear of being killed or burnt out of their homes - rights which are being denied to them by those rioters.

Now either, you arent willing to support the police in doing their job or you are. The message has been very clearly communicated to police in the UK that they will be crucified if they make a mistake, so the very rational response is to stand off and do nothing for fear of making a mistake that might end a career or result in police casualties.

Like I said, send in the social workers. Let them restore law and order.

You are creating a false dichotomy.

walshb · 08-08-2011 11:34PM

davoxx wrote: »

that's the spirit, never give up hope!! we need another country for england to rape and pillage bring civilisation to and then we can ship all these fecking scum there and call it australia, err uk2 ... or something like that.

it's simple to make it "harmonious", tell the queen to give back what she stole donate her hard earned cash to the poor countries in the world, and these heinous foreigners will leave faster than the British/Irish going to America/Australia ...

If only it was that simple.

junder · 08-08-2011 11:34PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

junder wrote: »

The met don't police Birmingham. Seems to me your just looking to get a dig in at a British police force and nothing else

It has spread. Surely being from the 6 counties this you understand?

Spread, why? Birmingham is nothing to do with tbe met, so what's thier beef? Solidarty? I doubt it. Poverty? Well quite a few people live in poverty and don't feel the need to throw bricks through police car windows

Corsendonk · 08-08-2011 11:35PM

fatalll wrote: »

These riots are not a race thing
this is just a part of the community that are scumbags...looters, robbers, criminals..
they just want to get things for free and they see their oppertunity...
i think they need a good hiding, and to be honest they dont care about burning people in their flats, so i think they should be thrown in by the cops if this happens...

I think a marshall law should be introduced..
anyone out after 8pm should be arrested and if they resist the police should be able to use force....

they injured police tonight and probably innocent people too..
burned peoples hard earned property..
Its sick

it will happen in developed countries until force is allowed to be used..but you will have left wing liberals saying its the police who caused this..

the police do a good job...and this is the thanks they get

Why do you want an Aussie TV series introduced?:eek:

Its Martial Law.

OhNoYouDidn't · 08-08-2011 11:35PM

Sand wrote: »

Given the age profile of the rioters, are you calling for heavy police tactics against schoolkids? Either they stand off and let things burn out, or they go in and restore law and order.

Its a childish stance to simultaneosly complaining about the police standing off the rioters, yet being opposed to them using force to restore law and order. You might be obsessed with the rights of the rioters, but the people living in those areas also have a right to leave in peace without fear of being killed or burnt out of their homes - rights which are being denied to them by those rioters.

Now either, you arent willing to support the police in doing their job or you are. The message has been very clearly communicated to police in the UK that they will be crucified if they make a mistake, so the very rational response is to stand off and do nothing for fear of making a mistake that might end a career or result in police casualties.

Like I said, send in the social workers. Let them restore law and order.

So how many plod have been taken to task for the litany of high profile Met disasters over the past 10 or so years?

The issue is a complete LACK of fear of making a mistake. The Met are totally alienated and aloof from the people of London and need to be reformed root and branch.

fatalll · 08-08-2011 11:35PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

ALL the media commentary and politicians statements are alluding that the Met are **** at their jobs and apologising to the family of the man they killed in questionable circumstances.

I dont think they did, unless you are listening to some foreign channel and getting the translation wrong,
usually the media will say why are they not cracking down on them....ie they are too soft..
or when they do, they will say the police used excessive force...

lets see how long that takes to happen

davoxx · 08-08-2011 11:36PM

walshb wrote: »

If only it was that simple.

it is, but some people are just plain greedy ... and then they say stuff like "if only it were that simple" did they try? no? funny that ...

Sand · 08-08-2011 11:36PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

There is a difference between cracking heads and not having any boots on the ground whatsoever, and that is what has happened in many of these areas. That would NOT have been the case had there been looting in post areas of London, PC police be damned.

Theres no point leaving outnumbered police surrounded in areas where they are being stoned and petrol bombed, yet lack the support to do anything about it. It only encourages further attacks by the local scumbags eager to act out ritualistic, safe violence against faceless targets. Policemen have families too, and commanders have to take into account the safety of their own men and women under their command.

Like I said, send in the social workers - let them do their thing and show the police how its done.

London Riots

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