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David Norris - Post-Revelations

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    #272
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    Biggins wrote: »
    We might find something to disagree with upon analysis, but heavens, what a meaty, mighty post! :)


    I plan on giving it another read when I am less fatigued and have a large coffee in front of me


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    #273
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    HarryPotter41 wrote: »
    I plan on giving it another read when I am less fatigued and have a large coffee in front of me

    My thoughts too. Crikey!
    I might disagree somewhere - but credit to the dude for making that weighty post!


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    #274
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Is it not odd that of all the candidates there has been a concerted attempt to sabotage the Norris candidacy? If someone feels so strongly against him, let his name go on the ballot and then vote against him. Why have there been no damaging stories about any other candidate? Are they all so squeaky clean? Christ, look at Gallagher-a former member of the FF national executive, a party that robbed and raped this country for it's own gain and the benefit of its pals. Anyone quiz him on his support for FF?
    Norris should have followed Volumnia's advice to Coriolanus, advising to "speak with such words that are but rooted in
    Your tongue, though but bastards and syllables
    Of no allowance to your bosom's truth"


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    #275
    keanooo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭keanooo


    Biggins wrote: »
    Where there is understanding no comment is needed, but where there's no understanding no amount of argument is convincing.

    And will you stop using "Marcus Aurelius's 1001 Greatest Comebacks" to defend your flip-flopping.


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    #276
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    Is it not odd that of all the candidates there has been a concerted attempt to sabotage the Norris candidacy? If someone feels so strongly against him, let his name go on the ballot and then vote against him. Why have there been no damaging stories about any other candidate? Are they all so squeaky clean? Christ, look at Gallagher-a former member of the FF national executive, a party that robbed and raped this country for it's own gain and the benefit of its pals. Anyone quiz him on his support for FF?
    Norris should have followed Volumnia's advice to Coriolanus, advising to "speak with such words that are but rooted in
    Your tongue, though but bastards and syllables
    Of no allowance to your bosom's truth"

    There have been articles about other candidates- one article even raised the fact that Gay Mitchell's cousin is a criminal, and insinuated that this could somehow be a stain on his character. The fact though, is that the other candidates don't seem to have engaged in extremely dubious behaviour, so there hasn't been anything to report.


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    #277
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Einhard wrote: »
    There have been articles about other candidates- one article even raised the fact that Gay Mitchell's cousin is a criminal, and insinuated that this could somehow be a stain on his character. The fact though, is that the other candidates don't seem to have engaged in extremely dubious behaviour, so there hasn't been anything to report.

    I suspect that when the official starting date for this election begins and candidates are nominated, we might - and in some cases hopefully - see just as heavy questioning as to pasts and backgrounds of others.
    For the moment prior to the latest Norris issue, he was sure getting some publicity. A lot more than others were. As to why this is, each of us can only draw our own conclusion on what we hear and read.


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    #278
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    Every presidential campaign has been vicious with slurs on many peoples characters. He might be the first this time, but he's not the first ever.


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    #279
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    HarryPotter41 wrote: »
    Would you not think that in light of the revelations of his plea for clemency for a man cnovicted of statutory rape that the HLB issue has a lot more credence because of the suggested inferences that can be garnered from both matters?

    Personally, I wouldn't. I understand if others may look at it that way but as far as I'm concerned that Magill article was tabloid sensationalist trash and I'm still satisfied with Norris' response to it: http://www.norrisforpresident.ie/askdavid/magill-magazine-2002

    Having said all that, I wouldn't look as favourably on any attempt he may make to defend sending those letters. An acknowledgement of wrongdoing, a humble apology and his withdrawal from the presidential race is the best way for Norris to win back some respect here.


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    #280
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    whydoibother? wrote: »
    Every presidential campaign has been vicious with slurs on many peoples characters. He might be the first this time, but he's not the first ever.

    Indeed. Sure wan't some of the stuff that was thrown a presidential election or two ago, was "why was a northerner from across the border be even allowed to run" (or words to that effect) - I'm sure more will come.
    Sadly we seem to have adopted some of the ways things are done in America and other countries.
    Rather than debate on principle details, some home in and go for slurs as possible method to knock an opponent (and I'm not just talking about Norris here).


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    #281
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    Einhard wrote: »
    There have been articles about other candidates- one article even raised the fact that Gay Mitchell's cousin is a criminal, and insinuated that this could somehow be a stain on his character. The fact though, is that the other candidates don't seem to have engaged in extremely dubious behaviour, so there hasn't been anything to report.

    I'm sure a lot of people have family members they'd rather not share blood with. I wouldn't hold that against him.

    Hiowever, there was a report of Gay Mitchell writing to the governor of Florida back in 2003 appealing for a convicted murderer to be spared the death penalty. Now I'm also against the death penalty but I believe the only reason Mitchell, who's very conservative and pro-life, got involved was because the convict murdered an abortionist.

    Link 1
    Link 2 (Daily Mail; take with pinch of salt)

    What's not clear is whether Mitchell wrote the letter as a TD or just of his own accord. If it's the latter then that's his own business, although I still question his motivation for intervening in that particular case.

    If he wrote the letter using his official position as TD, however, then that isn't much better than what Norris did in the Nawi case. Ok so Mitchell had not ties to the convict and so had no ulterior motive, as such; that's one difference. But it's still using a Governmental position to intervene in a foreign criminal matter.


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    #282
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    KnifeWRENCH wrote: »
    Personally, I wouldn't. I understand if others may look at it that way but as far as I'm concerned that Magill article was tabloid sensationalist trash and I'm still satisfied with Norris' response to it: http://www.norrisforpresident.ie/askdavid/magill-magazine-2002

    Having said all that, I wouldn't look as favourably on any attempt he may make to defend sending those letters. An acknowledgement of wrongdoing, a humble apology and his withdrawal from the presidential race is the best way for Norris to win back some respect here.

    To me its a continuation of a thought process which he seems to have with regard the age of consent and relationships between young people and adults. I have read his answer on Magill and it is by no means a comprehensive repudiation of anything. He was given at the time the opportunity to clarify if what was said was what he wanted to say. He was happy that it was, to say anything was then taken out of context is being misleading.

    Personally I could never understand the coronation of David Norris as President, he is elitist, absolutely loves himself. can be an amusing person to hear speak but it then wears thin pretty quickly. As has been previously pointed out, he is now in the real world of politics and not the rarified atmosphere of the Seanad University panel. People are far more inquisitive of who they let represent this nation of ours overseas.


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    #283
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    Biggins wrote: »
    Indeed. Sure wan't some of the stuff that was thrown a presidential election or two ago, was "why was a northerner from across the border be even allowed to run" (or words to that effect) - I'm sure more will come.
    Sadly we seem to have adopted some of the ways things are done in America and other countries.
    Rather than debate on principle details, some home in and go for slurs as possible method to knock an opponent (and I'm not just talking about Norris here).

    I agree. It would be much better to have a higher standard of debate. I think part of the problem is the fact that the president is supposed to be politically neutral. It's fairly hard to get stuck into the issues of the day.
    When someone is asked "why would you be a good president?" they can't say, because I have plans to fix the economy/health/education etc. Their only option is to look to their past and focus on themselves as an individual and claim that they are a "good" person. The natural rebuttal of this is to tell them they are not a good person. That's why it gets so personal.


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    #284
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    finian mcgrath has withdrawn support for David Norris according to twitter.


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    #285
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Just looked him up on Wikipedia and i was very impressed. I think he might deserve a 2nd chance.


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    #286
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    KnifeWRENCH wrote: »
    I'm sure a lot of people have family members they'd rather not share blood with. I wouldn't hold that against him.

    Hiowever, there was a report of Gay Mitchell writing to the governor of Florida back in 2003 appealing for a convicted murderer to be spared the death penalty. Now I'm also against the death penalty but I believe the only reason Mitchell, who's very conservative and pro-life, got involved was because the convict murdered an abortionist.

    Link 1
    Link 2 (Daily Mail; take with pinch of salt)

    What's not clear is whether Mitchell wrote the letter as a TD or just of his own accord. If it's the latter then that's his own business, although I still question his motivation for intervening in that particular case.

    If he wrote the letter using his official position as TD, however, then that isn't much better than what Norris did in the Nawi case. Ok so Mitchell had not ties to the convict and so had no ulterior motive, as such; that's one difference. But it's still using a Governmental position to intervene in a foreign criminal matter.
    another man interfering in the lawmakers in another country, where is the letter, was it written on headed paper


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    #287
    xoxyx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭xoxyx


    I feel sorry for David Norris in a way.

    Ok - I certainly don't agree with his views all the time. And in relation to THAT interview - where he seemed to condone certain practices with regard to underage boys, I don't think he acted well. We all have controversial views. He took it a bit far, and certainly, as a public figure, should have had the sense not to say what he said to a journalist. But I don't think he deserved the public flaying that he got because of it. It's not as though he was suggesting that we should all go out and have sex with 12 year olds. What I really don't like about that whole issue is the way he handled it after it came into the limelight.

    This thing, however. He used his authority to write some letters for a lover of his who was facing a serious sentence for sex with a minor. I don't know the ins and outs of this case, but if it was something as simple as having sex with somebody who was consensual but underage, I would do the same for somebody that I cared about. Now, if it was the case that this guy forced himself upon the girl, I would think differently. But, I can only go with the facts that I have.

    He misused his position, but he's only human and, although he could seriously do with a bit of cop on, he hasn't committed half the crimes that people in our governments have so far. And, I can't see, so far, that he's done anything to help himself to free money, land, whatever.

    I don't think he's right for president at all, but he is getting some amount of crap thrown at him, when the people who are running this country have done a whole lot worse. IMHO.


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    #288
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Voltwad wrote: »
    finian mcgrath has withdrawn support for David Norris according to twitter.

    John Halligan has gone too now and rumour has it Pringle will declare himself out within the hour.


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    #289
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Chdeck this for unbiased reporting

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/relations-with-ezra-nawi-threaten-to-derail-norris-irish-presidential-hopes-1.376165


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    #290
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Pringle is now not backing Norris according to RTE


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    #291
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    That's exit stage left for David now.


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    #292
    Orizio
    Registered Users Posts: 9,460 ✭✭✭Orizio


    I shall still be voting for Norris - we can't let the knuckle-dragging homophobic culchie media destroy an intellectual like David because they want to get their own bogger into power (yet again).


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    #293
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,655 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Orizio wrote: »
    I shall still be voting for Norris - we can't let the knuckle-dragging homophobic culchie media destroy an intellectual like David because they want to get their own bogger into power (yet again).

    I think he did a good job of it himself tbh.


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    #294
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    Orizio wrote: »
    I shall still be voting for Norris - we can't let the knuckle-dragging homophobic culchie media destroy an intellectual like David because they want to get their own bogger into power (yet again).

    Don't see the link personally. Perhaps you could expand on that one?


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    #295
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Orizio wrote: »
    I shall still be voting for Norris - we can't let the knuckle-dragging homophobic culchie media destroy an intellectual like David because they want to get their own bogger into power (yet again).


    Well it looks like you won't be able to now.


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    #296
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    goat2 wrote: »
    another man interfering in the lawmakers in another country, where is the letter, was it written on headed paper

    It's not made clear (at least not in those reports anyway) whether it was a letter on headed paper or not. Mr. Mitchell should be required to make a statement to clarify that himself, although I'm sure he won't have to; this story won't receive anywhere near as much attention as the Norris case.


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    #297
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    Orizio wrote: »
    I shall still be voting for Norris - we can't let the knuckle-dragging homophobic culchie media destroy an intellectual like David because they want to get their own bogger into power (yet again).


    Too ridiculous a comment to even reply to


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    #298
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Orizio wrote: »
    I shall still be voting for Norris - we can't let the knuckle-dragging homophobic culchie media destroy an intellectual like David because they want to get their own bogger into power (yet again).

    Homophobic media??? :pac:


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    #299
    xoxyx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭xoxyx


    Orizio wrote: »
    I shall still be voting for Norris - we can't let the knuckle-dragging homophobic culchie media destroy an intellectual like David because they want to get their own bogger into power (yet again).

    But here's the thing. A lot of people are voting for Norris because he's an interesting figure who can speak well and has done a lot of good. That's fine if he has a seat in the Seanad. But, this is a vote for presidency.

    As our president, he would have to put his agendas behind him and act solely for the good of our country. He won't be part of a larger party - he will be one person representing us. And, despite all the good work he does, he is not suitable for that role.

    I like David Norris, but I don't think he would be able to take any job objectively. With all his good intentions, David needs somebody to rein him in. We need somebody with a bit of a cooler head.


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    #300
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    gambiaman wrote: »
    Well it looks like you won't be able to now.
    Isn't that the pity of it? A bunch of watching-my-seat politicians decide for the people, instead of letting the guy get on the ballot paper and letting us decide. Sean Gallagher? What has he done for the country? Michael D? Who the hell heard of Mary Davis before she put her name forward? If the guy does not get on the ballot paper, it's a bad day for democracy.


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    #301
    Orizio
    Registered Users Posts: 9,460 ✭✭✭Orizio


    whydoibother? wrote: »
    Don't see the link personally. Perhaps you could expand on that one?

    Very simply, as people who grow up in Dublin city (and to a lesser extent, Cork and Limerick city) are well-educated, sophisticated and urbane, they are far too open minded and progressive to be homophobic. Urbanites are overwhelmingly pro-gay rights, and anti-tradtionalism while culchies tend to be overwhemlingly pro-Catholicism and extremely narrow minded in their views, invariably being racist, homophobic, sexist and so on.

    As such, it stands to reason that if the media is attacking Norris with a homphobic hate campaign - as they are - the media must be culchie run. One needs only to look at the non-stop GAA coverage in the media - even though decent human beings play/follow rugby and cricket - and the media's massive defense of the RCC in recent weeks to show just how that the Irish-media is bogger run.


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