Catholic Church claims it is above the law

Killer Pigeon · 15-07-2011 02:51PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I didn't ask you for your opinion, shinner, preaching piety out one side of your mouth while openly supporting criminals out the other.

Well that was a bit harsh now towards Wolfe Tone, in fairness.

Attack the post, not the poster - and all that jazz.

admiralofthefleet · 15-07-2011 02:51PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I was talking about his proposals to seize assets/tax.

i was replying to what you quoted. but why not seize assets? the cult is worth billions but still insists on collecting money. the ordinary taxpayer should not foot the bill paying compensation for what them animals did

by the way, you still havent answered my question

15-07-2011 02:53PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Yes or no

Yeah, somehow I thought you would be incapable of giving a straight answer. Carry on

Amhran Nua · 15-07-2011 02:54PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

His proposals for seizing assets/taxing are indeed highly unrealistic and undeliverable.

Why? The church has been passing on property for generations with nary a whiff of capital gains tax. I'd say its not only doable, its perfectly justifiable in these economically straitened times.

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Well that was a bit harsh now towards Wolfe Tone, in fairness.

Attack the post, not the poster - and all that jazz.

Fair enough, I may get a bit het up over child rape.

Magic Beans · 15-07-2011 02:54PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Of course they will lie. They are experts at it. The pope is the best in the world at it. The pope has covered up child abuse and lied about it. Fuck the pope.

They had no problem helping Nazis escape after WW2. Never underestimate the power of Rome.

You're lapping this up. A Unionist gets to say "Fúck the Pope" with impunity on Ireland's larget web site.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 15-07-2011 02:54PM

If you tell a psychotherapist or a doctor that you have abused children, can they report you?

If not could see that causing problems with this proposed law.

Going by the sopranos, Tony could tell yer wan stuff he previously did, but never told her if he was going to do something or cause harm, because she could report that.

KeithM89_old · 15-07-2011 02:55PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I didn't ask you for your opinion, shinner, preaching piety out one side of your mouth while openly supporting criminals out the other.

....

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Attack the post, not the poster - and all that jazz.

^^ What he said

Do it again and youre Banned

Liam Byrne · 15-07-2011 02:55PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Please don't trivialise what is one of the most heinous and evil crimes that mankind can commit. I know for a fact that victims find that term particularly offensive. Call it what it is.

Definitely didn't mean to trivialise it, and I have no hesitation in clarifying that it was rape and assault.

Sincere apologies for any offence accidentally caused.

Aside from that, my views on the twisted f**kwit that claims to be God's representative on Earth while still not only keeping quiet about it but actually telling others to keep quiet about it are well stated here on boards.

admiralofthefleet · 15-07-2011 02:55PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Of course they will lie. They are experts at it. The pope is the best in the world at it. The pope has covered up child abuse and lied about it. Fuck the pope.

They had no problem helping Nazis escape after WW2. Never underestimate the power of Rome.

+1
they will continue to lie and cover up the truth until the cult is banned

suicide_circus · 15-07-2011 02:56PM

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

the ordinary taxpayer should not foot the bill paying compensation for what them animals did

I disagree in part. The taxpayer (ie the state) was, and is, only too happy to accept the help and charity the church offered in terms of education, food, housing and pastrol care over the years. Now thus has backfired, the tax payer is at least 50% responsible for the fallout.

Seachmall · 15-07-2011 02:56PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If you tell a psychotherapist or a doctor that you have abused children, can they report you?

They can lose their license to practice if they fail to report you.

This law will bring criminal charges and up to 5 years jail time if they fail to report you.

Mickeroo · 15-07-2011 02:57PM

It's no different from asking psychiatrists or psychologists to break their confidentiality agreements if a patient admits to commiting or admits to planning on commiting a serious crime as far as I can see.

15-07-2011 02:58PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If you tell a psychotherapist or a doctor that you have abused children, can they report you?

Quotes from the Irish Times article:

...Government plans to make it mandatory to pass on details of suspected child sexual abuse to authorities.

“If there is a law in the land, it has to be followed by everybody. There are no exceptions, there are no exemptions,” Ms Fitzgerald [Minister for Children] said. “I’m not concerned, neither is the Government, about the internal laws or rules governing any body."

Seem to suggest it will be universal

Seachmall · 15-07-2011 02:58PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's no different from asking psychiatrists or psychologists to break their confidentiality agreements if a patient admits to commiting or admits to planning on commiting a serious crime as far as I can see.

Which they're currently legally obligated to do. I posted the source a few pages back that explained any serious crime against children must be reported to social services or the gardai.

Run_to_da_hills · 15-07-2011 02:58PM

The authorities should start eavesdropping confession boxes of suspected priests.

Amhran Nua · 15-07-2011 02:58PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's no different from asking psychiatrists or psychologists to break their confidentiality agreements if a patient admits to commiting or admits to planning on commiting a serious crime as far as I can see.

Right now if no action is taken a priest can shrug and say "confessional!", even if that priest heard it elsewhere. It's the perfect alibi for covering up institutional abuse.

philologos · 15-07-2011 02:58PM

As far as I can see it as a non-Catholic I see zero benefit in removing the confessional seal. The amount of cases where people will confess to child sexual abuse are miniscule. I was listening to RTÉ1 in the car and this discussion has dominated it all morning.

How is this law enforceable? It essentially is making something a thought crime. As was mentioned on the radio as well, how can it be ensured that people know everything they need to know to make a report from a confession given that many confessional boxes obscure the view between the priest and the penitent.

Looking to other political situations, in 2003 and 2006 it was threatened to remove the confessional seal in respect to child abuse in New Hampshire. It never happened as the chamber ruled that it was too impractical and not really all that beneficial. Other cases have arisen in Kentucky, Florida, Maryland, Virginia and Connecticut, all of these were ultimately rejected.

Many people who were contributing on the radio also said that the law of the State is above the law of private clubs and churches. This is true, but they miss the fundamental point that people discuss laws rationally before they are passed. This isn't happening. All one would have heard on RTÉ1 is hysteria.

What's the practical solution to this problem? Considering that most of the coverup happened in private meetings between the clergy and the victims it seems that the confessional doesn't come into it. Rather the dealings that clergy had come into it.

Mickeroo · 15-07-2011 02:59PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Which they're currently legally obligated to do. I posted the source a few pages back that explained any serious crime against children must be reported to social services or the gardai.

Yea I know they are, and I completely agree with it.

15-07-2011 02:59PM

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

i was replying to what you quoted. but why not seize assets? the cult is worth billions but still insists on collecting money. the ordinary taxpayer should not foot the bill paying compensation for what them animals did

by the way, you still havent answered my question

Why are people so happy to blame an entire organisation for the wrong doing of a a very few when it comes to the catholic church.

If I were to come in here and say everyone from (enter foreign country) is a thief and a criminal and they should be thrown out of the country. Id probably be banned and my post deleted. Generalizations are ok in some situations it appears.

15-07-2011 03:01PM

philologos wrote: »

As far as I can see it as a non-Catholic I see zero benefit in removing the confessional seal. The amount of cases where people will confess to child sexual abuse are miniscule. I was listening to RTÉ1 in the car and this discussion has dominated it all morning.

Do you think a law making it mandatory to pass on details of suspected child sexual abuse to authorities is not a good idea? Or is it that you think there should be a special exemption in the law for things said in confession?

admiralofthefleet · 15-07-2011 03:02PM

Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »

Why are people so happy to blame an entire organisation for the wrong doing of a a very few when it comes to the catholic church.

If I were to come in here and say everyone from (enter foreign country) is a thief and a criminal and they should be thrown out of the country. Id probably be banned and my post deleted. Generalizations are ok in some situations it appears.

because those at the top continue to cover up and protect the perpetrators

philologos · 15-07-2011 03:03PM

28064212 wrote: »

Do you think a law making it mandatory to pass on details of suspected child sexual abuse to authorities is not a good idea? Or is it that you think there should be a special exemption in the law for things said in confession?

Nobody is going to go to confession and confess something like that if they are going to be prosecuted for it. So there is no benefit in respect to confession at least as far as I can see it.

How does one prove knowledge in a court of law?

In principle the idea is good, in practice it's wholly unenforceable. We need to look to elsewhere now and draw conclusions based on experience in other jurisdictions before we jump at the most impractical yet well sounding solution.

Amhran Nua · 15-07-2011 03:03PM

Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »

If I were to come in here and say everyone from (enter foreign country) is a thief and a criminal and they should be thrown out of the country

The church isn't a country, it's a hierarchical organisation that has proven itself unfit for its purpose at best and actively malignant at worst.

suicide_circus · 15-07-2011 03:03PM

philologos wrote: »

Many people who were contributing on the radio also said that the law of the State is above the law of private clubs and churches. This is true, but they miss the fundamental point that people discuss laws rationally before they are passed. This isn't happening. All one would have heard on RTÉ1 is hysteria.

ah you wouldnt want any rationality getting in the way of a good bit of hysteria

suicide_circus · 15-07-2011 03:06PM

28064212 wrote: »

Do you think a law making it mandatory to pass on details of suspected child sexual abuse to authorities is not a good idea? Or is it that you think there should be a special exemption in the law for things said in confession?

Should we put into law all things we consider to be a nice idea regardless of how practical, enforceable or beneficial they are?

KeithAFC · 15-07-2011 03:06PM

Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »

Why are people so happy to blame an entire organisation for the wrong doing of a a very few when it comes to the catholic church.

If I were to come in here and say everyone from (enter foreign country) is a thief and a criminal and they should be thrown out of the country. Id probably be banned and my post deleted. Generalizations are ok in some situations it appears.

The church is riddled with corruption, covering up of child abuse, child abusing priests and lies about contraception and medical science.

Mickeroo · 15-07-2011 03:07PM

philologos wrote: »

Nobody is going to go to confession and confess something like that if they are going to be prosecuted for it. So there is no benefit in respect to confession at least as far as I can see it.

How does one prove knowledge in a court of law?

In principle the idea is good, in practice it's wholly unenforceable. We need to look to elsewhere now and draw conclusions based on experience in other jurisdictions before we jump at the most impractical yet well sounding solution.

It's no-more unenforcable than the laws involving pschologists and psychiatrists, it would be at the discretion of those involved to come forward and say so and so admitted to whatever. It should have been required by law long before any of the scandals were exposed, it shouldn't even be a controversial issue to make this a law imho.

15-07-2011 03:08PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Should we put into law all things we consider to be a nice idea regardless of how practical, enforceable or beneficial they are?

Oh good, more total avoidance of the question

Min · 15-07-2011 03:08PM

28064212 wrote: »

So you're against a law which makes it mandatory to pass on details of suspected child sexual abuse to authorities?

I have no problem with it but alll this hullabaloo over the confessional was not an issue in the Cloyne report, and does one think an abuser would even admit it in confession given they seem to think they are doing nothing wrong?

15-07-2011 03:08PM

philologos wrote: »

Nobody is going to go to confession and confess something like that if they are going to be prosecuted for it. So there is no benefit in respect to confession at least as far as I can see it.

Possibly. In which case there's no problem with the confessional seal, and the law will make it an offence for anybody to not pass on details of child abuse to the authorities

philologos wrote: »

How does one prove knowledge in a court of law?

There are numerous laws which hinge on proving knowledge. Insider trading cases being one example. Proving it will work on exactly the same basis as every other crime i.e. it should be beyond reasonable doubt

Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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