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Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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Comments

  • #212
    Magic Beans
    Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭Magic Beans


    Why the bold text? Any laws passed by the Oireachtas will only be effective in Ireland. BTW you are correct in that I would like to see all the infleunce removed. They are subverting the authority of the state. That is treason.

    By the way the correct reference is John 11:35 ;)


  • #213
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Min wrote: »
    There is no excuse.

    The HSE was responsible for the children that died, it is pretty sad you are trying to blame the church for the children the state was responsible for.

    My point is confession is not the issue in all of this, the state is making it an issue.
    The abuse in Cloyne happened and continued not because of the secrecy of confession.
    The state is deflecting from the issues by getting into a row with the church over this.
    Every time the state is found at fault we hear about it and steps are taken. The Rcc on the other hand trys to cover up. So AFAIK The State is covering all bases.


  • #214
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Given that, in the larger scheme of things, only a minuscule minority of Catholics were abused by church officials, I wonder when the church will claim compensation from the state for all the centuries of Irish people it educated, fed, housed and clothed when the state was unwilling or unable to do so?

    the state can go back and claim all the grants wages and various other expenses from the last century and can also get CAB to seize all its assets i works both ways


  • #215
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Im not part of that church but i am a citizen of the state. A state which has no obligation to take peoples belief in superstition and magic into account.

    It does by the way. The convention for the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms which Ireland is signed upto states in article 9

    1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
    2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
    Now if the state used the Cloyne report it would be very questionable if the law could include confession, as the report did not say the secrecy of confession was an issue.


  • #216
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,084 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Min wrote: »
    It does by the way. The convention for the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms which Ireland is signed upto states in article 9

    1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
    2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
    Now if the state used the Cloyne report it would be very questionable if the law could include confession, as the report did not say the secrecy of confession was an issue.

    So the state wouldn't actually be contravening article 9.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #217
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I agree that priests should not have to violate the seal of confession, they will stick to their guns and refuse to do it too.


  • #218
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    NTMK wrote: »
    the state can go back and claim all the grants wages and various other expenses from the last century and can also get CAB to seize all its assets i works both ways
    Pretty sure the church would still come out on top considering the time scale. And CAB? Never gonna happen.


  • #219
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I agree that priests should not have to violate the seal of confession, they will stick to their guns and refuse to do it too.
    :rolleyes:even when children are at risk


  • #220
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    NTMK wrote: »
    :rolleyes:even when children are at risk
    Yes, even when children are at risk, the priest should urge the person in question to go to the authorities ofc.


  • #221
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Min wrote: »
    It does by the way. The convention for the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms which Ireland is signed upto states in article 9

    1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
    2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
    Now if the state used the Cloyne report it would be very questionable if the law could include confession, as the report did not say the secrecy of confession was an issue.

    Are you deliberately contradicting your own point?


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  • #222
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Every time the state is found at fault we hear about it and steps are taken. The Rcc on the other hand trys to cover up. So AFAIK The State is covering all bases.

    Tell me what steps have the state taken in regards to vunerable children since it came out that 200 children have died in 10 years?

    The church has taken steps the reports says: the Commission has assessed the response of the State authorities by the standards they set for themselves in the 1995 Notification of Suspected Cases of Child Abuse between Health Boards and Gardaí and subsequently in Children First. The Commission acknowledges that the standards which were adopted by the Church are high standards which, if fully implemented, would afford proper protection to children. The standards set by the State are less precise and more difficult to implement.


  • #223
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,070 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I agree that priests should not have to violate the seal of confession, they will stick to their guns and refuse to do it too.
    NTMK wrote: »
    :rolleyes:even when children are at risk
    At the cost of their eternal souls (or whatever it is they believe)?

    They probably should stick to their guns. And they should be jailed for it

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  • #224
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Knasher wrote: »
    Are you deliberately contradicting your own point?
    That struck me too!


  • #225
    who the fug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    28064212 wrote: »
    At the cost of their eternal souls (or whatever it is they believe)?

    They probably should stick to their guns. And they should be jailed for it

    I have asked this before, but how in Gods name are you going to convict a priest for saying no comment.

    If you can't enforce a law no point passing it


  • #226
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    A criminal organisation that should be treated as one.


  • #227
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Yes, even when children are at risk, the priest should urge the person in question to go to the authorities ofc.
    So a priest, knowing that a child is being raped, should simply urge the offender to go to the authorities.
    Is the seal really that important? Why?


  • #228
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,070 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    who the fug wrote: »
    I have asked this before, but how in Gods name are you going to convict a priest for saying no comment.

    If you can't enforce a law no point passing it
    The same way as you'd convict a plumber who said no comment. By proving beyond reasonable doubt that they had knowledge

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  • #229
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    who the fug wrote: »
    I have asked this before, but how in Gods name are you going to convict a priest for saying no comment.

    If you can't enforce a law no point passing it

    It would be easy to enforce the law - there are two people in the conversation.


  • #230
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Knasher wrote: »
    Are you deliberately contradicting your own point?
    No. He's saying that nowhere in the report didi it say that the secrecy of the confessional was a red-flag issue. Our bandwagon jumpin straw clutchin government are using this as some sort of panacea


  • #231
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Knasher wrote: »
    Are you deliberately contradicting your own point?

    Where in the Cloyne report was the confessional an issue?

    I looked at the report, I cannot see where information was withheld due to confession.

    I cannot see why the government chose to make this issue as it was not an issue in the report. Confession was mentioned but even in the section where the secrecy of confession was mentioned the commission says the case was immediately reported to the Gardai.
    So we have the government making it an issue without it being an issue in the report.


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  • #232
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    No. He's saying that nowhere in the report didi it say that the secrecy of the confessional was a red-flag issue. Our bandwagon jumpin straw clutchin government are using this as some sort of panacea

    The government is bringing in a mandatory reporting requirement that applies to much more than just priests hearing confessions. No one is saying that it is a panacea.


  • #233
    who the fug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    28064212 wrote: »
    The same way as you'd convict a plumber who said no comment. By proving beyond reasonable doubt that they had knowledge


    Beyond reasonable doubt, without a third party witness, tape recording etc


  • #234
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,070 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    No. He's saying that nowhere in the report didi it say that the secrecy of the confessional was a red-flag issue. Our bandwagon jumpin straw clutchin government are using this as some sort of panacea
    Probably. So here's an idea: lets close off this one loophole, and then lets go after all the other loopholes as well, instead of just ignoring them all

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  • #235
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    The idea that I would have to go to confess ' my sins ' to some dude with a coller around his neck is so outdated but if people wish to do this as part of their Catholic faith then so be it .


  • #236
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Yes, even when children are at risk, the priest should urge the person in question to go to the authorities ofc.

    so instead of them reporting the person they should keep quiet and tell the person who abuses children to hand themselves in and hope that he does. how the **** does that make sense? Clergymen should not be above the law.when it comes to kids, what gives them the right to withhold evidence when doctors and psycs aren't


  • #237
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Min wrote: »
    I cannot see why the government chose to make this issue as it was not an issue in the report. Confession was mentioned but even in the section where the secrecy of confession was mentioned the commission says the case was immediately reported to the Gardai.
    So we have the government making it an issue without it being an issue in the report.
    The issue of non reporting was a major issue in the report. It isn't about the confessional per se - it is about mandatory reporting in general, and the report shows that the church weren't even able to properly report when they learned of abuse not coming form the confessional (where there was nothing stopping them).


  • #238
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,084 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    No. He's saying that nowhere in the report didi it say that the secrecy of the confessional was a red-flag issue. Our bandwagon jumpin straw clutchin government are using this as some sort of panacea

    so then the government would be legislating for something that doesn't happen, which means no priests will have to break the seal of confession.

    where's the problem then?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #239
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    28064212 wrote: »
    Probably. So here's an idea: lets close off this one loophole, and then lets go after all the other loopholes as well, instead of just ignoring them all
    Its not a loophole though, thats just what Alan Shattmypants would have you believe so that you think he's "doing something about it"...this law will protect no children, jail no paedos and change nothing, its just to temporarily subdue the baying mob.


  • #240
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    NTMK wrote: »
    so instead of them reporting the person they should keep quiet and tell the person who abuses children to hand themselves in and hope that he does. how the **** does that make sense? Clergymen should not be above the law.when it comes to kids, what gives them the right to withhold evidence when doctors and psycs aren't
    Confession is a vital part of catholicism, this would destroy it.


    Before priests have been imprisoned and even martyred over this, so there will be no change.


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  • #241
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    who the fug wrote: »
    Beyond reasonable doubt, without a third party witness, tape recording etc
    Why would there be any doubt? Wouldn't there be a guilty plea (or do you think priests would lie on a bible oath to avoid a conviction)?


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