Catholic Church claims it is above the law

15-07-2011 12:59PM

COYW wrote: »

Would anyone go to see him if he did? Or will people find their faith for a few days and flock in their hundreds of thousands to a mass in the park, for example!!!!!

Well believe it or not a very high percentage of people in this country are still practising Catholics so of course 1000's would show up for a visit.

mackg wrote: »

Wow what an argument, "you think your cool but your not" lol. If you want to have a disscussion I'm more than open to it. Come back to me when you have regained your composure.

I was simply stating a fact,jumping on the atheist bandwagon and/or speaking out against the church is the latest fad or as I said the "cool" thing to do.

Keep you mouth shut in future if it is going to be accusing me of losing my composure, if you have the ability to stop talking nonsense that is.

Knight who says Meh · 15-07-2011 01:08PM

Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »

Well believe it or not a very high percentage of people in this country are still practising Catholics so of course 1000's would show up for a visit.

I was simply stating a fact,jumping on the atheist bandwagon and/or speaking out against the church is the latest fad or as I said the "cool" thing to do.

Keep you mouth shut in future if it is going to be accusing me of losing my composure, if you have the ability to stop talking nonsense that is.

Maybe .... just maybe............and Im just throwing this out there... Its not so much jumping on a band wagon so much as folk being a teeeny weeeeny bit shocked and disgusted by chuild rape being systematic and protected in an organisation which has enormous power and influence.

But is atheism now defined as being anti child rape? ya live and learn:D

15-07-2011 01:10PM

mackg wrote: »

Religeon doesn't have a monopoly on loving others.

I choose to think Jesus was on to something.

You don't like it? I'll substitute "go f*ck yourself" with whatever equivalent the mods will accept that conveys the same depth of feeling.

I think "I really have no regard for what you think about my decision about my life, and any attempt to force me to change from my decision wil be resisted with equivalent force." covers it.

Dionysus · 15-07-2011 01:11PM

There is now extensive evidence that the Vatican state has been colluding with abusers and undermining the laws of this state, laws which are designed to protect Irish children. That instruction from the Vatican state in 2001 to all Irish bishops that they must report allegations of abuse to the Vatican state first and await instructions on whether to then report it to the Irish state ranks among the most obvious evidence in this regard.

The very least this state should do is expel that state's representative in Ireland, the Papal Nuncio. The very least. It's not so long ago that I heard a retired Irish politician talking with pride about how, on the establishment of the Free State, the new government proudly appointed the first Papal Nuncio since Rinuccini was expelled by the Cromwellians in 1649.

How times have changed. As if to demonstrate this, when the son of the notorious Oliver J Flanagan (*{{shudder}}*) comes out and demands that the Papal Nuncio be expelled, nobody in this country could fail to notice this seismic shift in Irish Catholic perceptions of the Vatican state.

It is unfortunate in this context that Alan Shatter - a man whose integrity I have a great deal of respect for - happens to be Jewish. I suspect he wouldn't feel confident on this issue in doing what a Catholic Minister for Justice (assuming his name is not John A. "I am an Irishman second: I am a Catholic first" Costello) would feel confident doing. Hopefully this is not the case and Shatter or Gilmore or Kenny will demand the expulsion of the Vatican state's representative. Listening to Shatter on Newstalk this morning, I felt he was being too polite. He should, I feel, be taking a much stronger line on this repeated action by a foreign state and its servants operating in this republic.

There has been far too much pussyfooting by the representatives of our republic since these Vatican state instructions came to public knowledge in recent years. We need leadership: they need to articulate the disgust and anger which is widely felt in our society about the deeds of this foreign state which most certainly does not have the safety of Irish children, or respect for the laws of this democratic state, at heart.

Morag · 15-07-2011 01:12PM

wild_cat wrote: »

Things like this make me be ashamed to be Irish. The BF said last night they should be burned at the stake like they did to the pagans.

/faceplam

No pagans or witches were ever burned at the stake in this country.

And for all the rubbish about pagan/satanic child abuse in the 80s turns out it was the RC Church, oh the irony.

Really Tim Minchin said it best with his Pope Song, which I am not going to link to but you can find it on youtube.

**** the mother****er
**** the mother****er
**** the mother****er
****ing **** the mother****er

**** the mother****er
**** the mother****ing Pope.

**** the mother****er
And **** you, mother****er
If you think that mother****er is sacred
If you cover for another mother****er
Who's a kiddie ****er
**** you, you're no better
Than the mother****ing rapist

And if you don't like the swearing
That this mother****er forced from me
And reckon it shows moral
Or intellectual paucity
Then **** you, mother****er
This is language one employs
When one is ****ing cross
About ****ers ****ing boys

I don't give a **** if calling
The Pope a mother****er
Means you unthinkingly brand me
An unthinking apostate

This has nowt to do with other
****ing Godly mother****ers
I'm not interested now
In ****ing scriptural debate

There are other ****ing songs
And there are other ****ing ways
I'll be a religious apologist
On other ****ing days

And the fact remains if you protect
A single kiddie ****er
The Pope, or Prince or plumber
You're a ****ing mother****er

You see I don't give a **** about
What any other ****er
Believes about Jesus
And his mother****ing mother

I've no problem with the spiritual beliefs
Of all these ****ers
While those beliefs don't impact
On the happiness of others

But if you build your Church on claims
Of ****ing moral authority
And with threats of Hell impose it
On others in society

Then you, you mother****ers
Can expect some ****ing wrath
When it turns out you've been ****ing us
In our mother****ing asses

So **** the mother****er
And **** you, mother****er
If you're still a mother****ing Papist
If he covered for a single mother****er
Who's a kiddie ****er
**** the mother****er
He's as evil as the rapist

And if you look into your mother****ing heart
And tell me true
If this mother****ing stupid ****ing
Song offended you
With its filthy ****ing language
And its ****ing disrespect
If it made you feel angry
Go ahead and write a letter
But if you find me more offensive
Than the ****ing possibility
That the Pope protected priests
While they were getting ****ing fiddly
Then listen to me mother****er
This here is a fact:
You are just as morally misguided
As that mother****ing, power hungry
Self-aggrandised bigot
In the stupid ****ing hat.

Seachmall · 15-07-2011 01:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I choose to think Jesus was on to something.

You don't like it? I'll substitute "go f*ck yourself" with whatever equivalent the mods will accept that conveys the same depth of feeling.

I think "I really have no regard for what you think about my decision about my life, and any attempt to force me to change from my decision wil be resisted with equivalent force." covers it.

Over reaction there, he stated a simple fact. You don't have to be Christian, or even religious, to love others. That's not controversial in the least, it's an observable fact.

Dionysus · 15-07-2011 01:15PM

Just for clarity, so that nobody can be in any doubt about the threat which the Vatican state is to this republic:

'In June 2001, every diocesan bishop in the Catholic Church was written to, in Latin, by the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict. They were instructed that, where complaints of clerical child sex abuse were concerned, these were first to be referred to Rome and it would decide how they were to be dealt with.'

- Patsy McGarry, The Irish Times, 12 December 2009

mackg · 15-07-2011 01:16PM

Maybe make your posts in more respectful, less condescending manner and the same respect would be shown to you. Your only argument has been that the church shouldn't pay tax because they are a religeous organisation, elaborate. Why should a Religeous order be exempt? I compared the church to a company and you reapeated your previous statement offering no new insight and then dismissed my whole argument because I'm just doing whats cool. You complain about this being a church bashing thread but, a few posts aside, all that has been said here is well within reason. The church as an organisation has a lot to answer for and we are well within our rights debating it on a public forum.

Keep you mouth shut in future if it is going to be accusing me of losing my composure, if you have the ability to stop talking nonsense that is.

More than willing to have a disscussion with you but please lose this tone.

Magic Beans · 15-07-2011 01:17PM

I earnestly hope that this will be the beginning of the end of church influence in Ireland.

Min · 15-07-2011 01:18PM

Seachmall wrote: »

If it tells priests not to go to the authorities when they're aware of such crimes it is in conflict with Irish Law.
They'll most likely be afforded the same rights as doctors. They will only be allowed to report cases that put children in danger or if they're ordered to do so by a court mandate.If they don't then what's the issue?
It is not a human right to hide heinous crimes.
You're failing to see the difference between incompetent actions and immoral ones.
No, it doesn't.It's not, it's doing it to protect children.

Canon law strictly forbids any breaking of the sacrament of repentance, there is no if or buts, the punishment by the church for breaking a sacrament is excommunication.
The sacraments are not open for discussion, it doesn't matter what the government does, a priest cannot break a sacrament.

I am sure if the matter was taken to the European courts of human rights it would find against the government, in no other jurisdiction in Europe is a priest expected to do what the government here wants.

How many priests confessed in a confession box they abused people? What did the Cloyne report say?
It never mentioned it.
The issue anbout confession was not even a confession in the report, read about Ula in section 15.
The first line of the commission's assessment states: In this case, the diocese did immediately, in 2002, report the complaint to the Gardaí.

So the government are making confession an issue even though it is not one in the report.

dvpower · 15-07-2011 01:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I choose to think Jesus was on to something.

Yes. Me too. I like his whole love each other message.

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't like it? I'll substitute "go f*ck yourself" with whatever equivalent the mods will accept that conveys the same depth of feeling.

Oh dear.

Duggy747 · 15-07-2011 01:21PM

The government isn't forcing a priest to cough up all the juicy gossip from his congregation, except only those who put the lives of children at risk.

I seriously doubt a large percentage of offenders actually confess to a priest but the fact that priests shouldn't inform anybody (or in cases of clerical abuse, the Vatican itself) is nothing short of disgusting.

Even if 1 sick bastard was arrested and rightfully convicted as a result of this I'd consider it good.

Joey the lips · 15-07-2011 01:22PM

They may feel they are above the law but I hope they are beneath god and judged for this when the time comes.

It must be very hard for those of faith to have respect for the powers within the church these days.

I dont think women would join such an organisation even if they could.

Seachmall · 15-07-2011 01:24PM

Min wrote: »

Canon law strictly forbids any breaking of the sacrament of repentance, there is no if or buts, the punishment by the church for breaking a sacrament is excommunication.
The sacraments are not open for discussion, it doesn't matter what the government does, a priest cannot break a sacrament.

And if by not breaking that sacrament he is in violation of State law he will be found guilty of a crime, and rightly so.

I am sure if the matter was taken to the European courts of human rights it would find against the government

That is so laughable it's shocking. Allowing confidentiality is not a basic human right, it is a privilege given to the church, one that allows them to protect abusers.

The Church has no special position in Ireland, no religion does. It is not exempt from any law decided by the people.

Dionysus · 15-07-2011 01:24PM

Magic Beans wrote: »

I earnestly hope that this will be the beginning of the end of church influence in Ireland.

Baby. Bath water. I'd be personally quite happy to see the work of Peter McVerry, Stanislaus Kennedy and Joe Murray (among others) - all members of religious orders - continue. But the overthrow of the Roman Catholic church and its ultramontane conservative culture which played a critical role in colonising Irish religious beliefs from the 19th century on is long overdue.

Magic Beans · 15-07-2011 01:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I choose to think Jesus was on to something.

Love each other sounds like a good idea.

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't like it? I'll substitute "go f*ck yourself" with whatever equivalent the mods will accept that conveys the same depth of feeling.

I'm just not feeling the love here. Is it just me?

ScumLord · 15-07-2011 01:26PM

Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »

Well believe it or not a very high percentage of people in this country are still practising Catholics so of course 1000's would show up for a visit.

Hardly, many people say their Catholic just because they always have but few ever go to mass other than to be baptised, married or buried.

I have some respect for the confessions privacy and think overall it should be respected but I don't think the church should dish out forgiveness so freely, tell the offending person they can't be forgiven by the church until they turn themselves in and face the consequences for their actions. This isn't like the middle ages where you can be killed simply for being black or a woman, they will et a fair trial and won't even get what they deserve.

If the church is going to hide behind their god and claim he's dishing out the forgiveness and they're just going along with it then off to the loony farm with the lot of them.

dvpower · 15-07-2011 01:26PM

Min wrote: »

Canon law strictly forbids any breaking of the sacrament of repentance, there is no if or buts, the punishment by the church for breaking a sacrament is excommunication.
The sacraments are not open for discussion, it doesn't matter what the government does, a priest cannot break a sacrament.

State law strictly forbids any breaking of the mandatory reporting requirement, there is no if or buts, the punishment by the state for breaking a mandatory reporting law can be imprisonment.
The laws are not open for discussion, it doesn't matter what the church does, a citizen cannot break the law.

Min wrote: »

So the government are making confession an issue even though it is not one in the report.

The government is bringing in mandatory reporting - it will apply across a range of areas, not just the confession box.

Ghost Buster · 15-07-2011 01:26PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Baby. Bath water. I'd be personally quite happy to see the work of Peter McVerry, Stanislaus Kennedy and Joe Murray (among others) - all members of religious orders - continue.

The end of church influence upon state affairs does not mean the end of the church.

Min · 15-07-2011 01:26PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

You sicken me you really do. Inspite of all you still apologise and make excuses for The RCC and make tired little references to China and Communism everytime people suggest that respect for superstition and fantasy and fairy tale should not be granted when it leads to the detriment of others.

The State is NOW in a position to tell the Church what to do now that our Police and politicians are no longer the forelock tugging cap twisting mumbling type we have had in the past. The type the RCC loved.

The State is answerable as we elect them. The RCC will remain unanswerable so long as cap twisters such as yourself defend them.

I am not making apologies for any wrong doers, the people are the church, the pope down to the priests are the administrators.

I am part of the church, I do not want the state thinking it can change confession when it can't even mind the children it has in it's own care.

Who has been made answerable for the 200 children who died in the care of the state and it organsations over the past 10 years?

Magic Beans · 15-07-2011 01:27PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Baby. Bath water. I'd be personally quite happy to see the work of Peter McVerry, Stanislaus Kennedy and Joe Murray (among others) - all members of religious orders - continue.

Personally, I'd rather not see any references to babies where the RC is concerned.

You don't have to be a Christian to help your fellow man.

Min wrote:

Who has been made answerable for the 200 children who died in the care of the state and it organisations over the past 10 years?

How does that excuse what the church did? BTW weren't many of these so called state institutions effectively run by the Church?

Dave! · 15-07-2011 01:28PM

seamus wrote: »

In reality the church has very little work to do in relation to child protection. It's mostly in the State's hands to take all institutions out of the church's hands, or to arrange full audits of church-run instutions, insisting that all staff working there are subject to the full training requirements and security clearance processes as would be required by any other organisation.

Our main issue is that the church was just allowed to run with these institutions, unaccounted for, for so long.

If you remove the robes and collars from any of the various reports, the first question we should be asking is, "Why aren't all of the people named here being arrested for their failure to disclose this material information?".

That's a state failure. If the church wishes to operate contrary to the laws of the land, that's fine, but the state should be nailing them to the cross every time they do.

We're all fully aware that the church lives in an alternate reality. I don't see any reason to get bogged down in their internal stuff and ask them to change. Force them to change by slaughtering them for doing wrong to society.

That's usually where the priests get into trouble...

Dyr · 15-07-2011 01:35PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Baby. Bath water. I'd be personally quite happy to see the work of Peter McVerry, Stanislaus Kennedy and Joe Murray (among others) - all members of religious orders - continue. But the overthrow of the Roman Catholic church and its ultramontane conservative culture which played a critical role in colonising Irish religious beliefs from the 19th century on is long overdue.

As someone who lives in ballymun..mcverry was a git IMO who just became a cause celebre. Homeless boy's? Drug dealing scummers more like

Dionysus · 15-07-2011 01:36PM

Magic Beans wrote: »

Personally, I'd rather not see any references to babies where the RC is concerned.

Jesus wept :rolleyes:

Magic Beans wrote: »

You don't have to be a Christian to help your fellow man.

Did somebody say you do?

Min · 15-07-2011 01:36PM

Magic Beans wrote: »

How does that excuse what the church did? BTW weren't many of these so called state institutions effectively run by the Church?

There is no excuse.

The HSE was responsible for the children that died, it is pretty sad you are trying to blame the church for the children the state was responsible for.

My point is confession is not the issue in all of this, the state is making it an issue.
The abuse in Cloyne happened and continued not because of the secrecy of confession.
The state is deflecting from the issues by getting into a row with the church over this.

Ghost Buster · 15-07-2011 01:37PM

Min wrote: »

I am not making apologies for any wrong doers, the people are the church, the pope down to the priests are the administrators.

I am part of the church, I do not want the state thinking it can change confession when it can't even mind the children it has in it's own care.

Who has been made answerable for the 200 children who died in the care of the state and it organsations over the past 10 years?

Im not part of that church but i am a citizen of the state. A state which has no obligation to take peoples belief in superstition and magic into account.

Dionysus · 15-07-2011 01:39PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

The end of church influence upon state affairs does not mean the end of the church.

I don't believe anybody said it would, although the poster said: 'I earnestly hope that this will be the beginning of the end of church influence in Ireland.', rather than merely on state affairs.

15-07-2011 01:39PM

Min wrote: »

Canon law strictly forbids any breaking of the sacrament of repentance, there is no if or buts, the punishment by the church for breaking a sacrament is excommunication.
The sacraments are not open for discussion, it doesn't matter what the government does, a priest cannot break a sacrament.

Then the priest will go to jail. Your statement has as much relevance to the law as this:

Photography club rules strictly forbids any use of digital cameras, there is no if or buts, the punishment by the Photography club for using a digital camera is expulsion from the club.

suicide_circus · 15-07-2011 01:40PM

Given that, in the larger scheme of things, only a minuscule minority of Catholics were abused by church officials, I wonder when the church will claim compensation from the state for all the centuries of Irish people it educated, fed, housed and clothed when the state was unwilling or unable to do so?

ScumLord · 15-07-2011 01:41PM

Min wrote: »

There is no excuse.

The HSE was responsible for the children that died, it is pretty sad you are trying to blame the church for the children the state was responsible for.

Your right that was the states responsibility and I think we can all safely say that at the very least it will never happen again. We're on top of it and fixing the bureaucracy that allowed that to happen.

My point is confession is not the issue in all of this, the state is making it an issue.
The abuse in Cloyne happened and continued not because of the secrecy of confession.
The state is deflecting from the issues by getting into a row with the church over this.

The point is the people don't agree that the church is above the state or the law, we don't care about they're rules and internal workings. Their abusing those internal workings to at first commit crimes against children and now to cover up and protect those criminals.

The church doesn't seem to think it has to answer to the people or even it's congregation, I hope they continue down this road so that people can see the sorry bunch of self serving assholes for what they really are.

Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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