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Cloynes Report, Christianity, etc etc

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  • #62
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    Morgans wrote: »
    Can a person be Catholic without believing in papal infallibility?

    Has the Pope displayed infallibility wrt the Irish scandals?

    Sorry I think these questions are related to the thread.

    You don't even need to believe in their imaginary man in the sky for them to count you as one of the tribe. They have even changed the rules to stop you from opting out.


  • #63
    Choochtown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    axer wrote: »
    Was listening to the radio on the way over to the shop at lunch just there (RTE I think) and there was a Fr. PJ Madden (Association of Catholic Priests) who said that if a priest came to him tomorrow and told him in confession that he has sexually abused a child then he while he would urge the priest to go to the relevant authorities he would not go and tell them himself as his religion is above the law.

    Nothing has changed in that f'ucked up organisation.


    http://www.rte.ie/radio1/player_av.html?0,null,200,http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-r1-todaywithpatkenny.smil

    There's a link to another paedophile excuser talking today on RTE. About 13 mins in Bishop Clifford says

    "if somebody confesses that they've been abused"



    So it's the child who has sinned now!


    Sick


  • #64
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    Morgans wrote: »
    Can a person be Catholic without believing in papal infallibility?

    Has the Pope displayed infallibility wrt the Irish scandals?

    Sorry I think these questions are related to the thread.

    The last time Papal infallibility was used was for a decision regarding a matter of doctrine in 1950.
    It can only be used to settle a matter of doctrine and nothing else.


  • #65
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    TD calls for expulsion of Papal Nuncio
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0714/cloyne.html


  • #66
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I might be taking this up wrong but is this thread saying that by believing in God etc you are somehow responsible for child abuse?

    The priests who abused children didn't do it because God or the Bible told them to, they did it because they are sick evil individuals.

    I would wager the vast majority of believers, myself included, are appalled and sickened by what happened.


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  • #67
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    fontanalis wrote: »
    TD calls for expulsion of Papal Nuncio
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0714/cloyne.html
    It is time that the sham of vatican statehood was ended.

    MrP


  • #68
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Y'know what's just as depressing as the report?...
    Have a look across the hedge at the number of so-called "good people" defending the RCC hierarcy and their "right" to withhold information possibly divulged in a confessional.....sickening, hateful, sub-human behaviour.

    My distaste of religious rubbish has now got to a stage where I will no longer entertain or suffer these fools. If I see a priest on the street, I will try very hard not to spit on them as they can give the "oh we're not ALL bad" argument but it doesn't wash anymore....each and every one of them is complicit in child rape and for that, we should never let them forget.


  • #69
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I might be taking this up wrong but is this thread saying that by believing in God etc you are somehow responsible for child abuse?

    The priests who abused children didn't do it because God or the Bible told them to, they did it because they are sick evil individuals.

    I would wager the vast majority of believers, myself included, are appalled and sickened by what happened.


    Not at all: personally I'm disgusted at the cess pool that is the vatican and the higher end of the hierarchy.


  • #70
    Newaglish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Newaglish


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I might be taking this up wrong but is this thread saying that by believing in God etc you are somehow responsible for child abuse?

    The priests who abused children didn't do it because God or the Bible told them to, they did it because they are sick evil individuals.

    I would wager the vast majority of believers, myself included, are appalled and sickened by what happened.

    I think the point is that ALL of your knowledge about God comes from the teachings of the Church and this proves (through the abuse AND importantly it's system of cover-ups) that the Church is a pretty evil and untrustworthy organisation. Given that the Church is single-handedly responsible for the spread of Catholicism that maybe, just maybe, they aren't as motivated by altruism as people would like to think? Perhaps it's just a handy way of achieving power and money?

    If it turned out the cult/religion I was following was say, systematically raping the children across my country, I'd start to wonder if I could believe their teachings and continue to worship their leader.


  • #71
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Not at all: personally I'm disgusted at the cess pool that is the vatican and the higher end of the hierarchy.

    Ok but some people do seem to be saying that christianity's teachings allow the abuse of children and that by remaining part of the faith we are somehow complicit.

    Which is just ludocris imp.


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  • #72
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Newaglish wrote: »
    I think the point is that ALL of your knowledge about God comes from the teachings of the Church and this proves (through the abuse AND importantly it's system of cover-ups) that the Church is a pretty evil and untrustworthy organisation. Given that the Church is single-handedly responsible for the spread of Catholicism that maybe, just maybe, they aren't as motivated by altruism as people would like to think? Perhaps it's just a handy way of achieving power and money?

    If it turned out the cult/religion I was following was say, systematically raping the children across my country, I'd start to wonder if I could believe their teachings and continue to worship their leader.

    Fair enough but I equally would not allow a few evil monsters to turn me away from my faith.

    If the managers of the company I work for were found to have been abusing children and the CEO and his ilk to have covered it up I wouldn't leave me job.

    So why should I turn from my beliefs.


  • #73
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Ok but some people do seem to be saying that christianity's teachings allow the abuse of children and that by remaining part of the faith we are somehow complicit.

    Which is just ludocris imp.

    I don't see it. I think the big issue in this is the role of the organisation not the religion. The authority and respect it commanded gave members inclined towards child abuse access to children and a respectability that such claims would not have been entertained back in the day.


  • #74
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    philologos wrote: »
    The RCC abuse has nothing to do with belief whatsoever. It has to do with people, greed, power and so on. There is nothing Christian about it.

    I like your take on Christianity. Just not the parts about God.

    You're correct, though. The RCC is rotten to the core and I have no idea how those involved can see themselves justifying their actions to their St Peter when the time comes. I can picture it now:

    Peter - So, why do you think you should get in? You protected paedophiles at the expense of innocent children.

    Joe - But, but, I'm the pope!

    Peter - Hey Satan! Another pope for you!


  • #75
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    The Chinese Christians are ignoring the law because they feel that the worship of God is more important than not doing this.
    You're getting there.

    We now both agree that the chinese ignore the law because their religious beliefs are more important to them than the law.
    philologos wrote: »
    The RCC abuse has nothing to do with belief whatsoever.
    No, it's got everything to do with belief. This is really quite easy. Try read it a couple of times if you still don't get it. Remember the following facts:
    • The Vatican claims that you can only stay alive after you die/get into heaven/whatever if you're a catholic (ok, that's not quite true anymore, but it was true until relatively recently).
    • If the Vatican fails to maintain its position and influence and from those, maintain its client population, then a lot more people are going to go to hell than otherwise would.
    • Greater numbers going to hell for an infinite amount of time is worse than prison for a few years (and possibly hell) for a few priests.
    • Ergo, the Vatican is behaving with perfect consistency to its (catholic) christian beliefs in protecting its reputation at expense of telling police that its employees are raping kids.
    In this, it's doing what the chinese are doing -- placing devotion to religious beliefs above devotion to the state law.

    Remember, in your version of christianity, reporting allegations of child rape is no doubt more important than preserving the reputation of the church you go to (probably a small one). In the Vatican's version of christianity, the reputation of the church is more important.


  • #76
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robindch: I'm not sure that you're getting what I'm saying. I'm arguing that it would have been more advantageous for the RCC to have come clean right at the start. I think this would have been ultimately better for the church in Ireland.

    You interpret the cover up in terms of keeping their position. However it's done exactly the opposite of this in Ireland, so I'm not following the logic that the cover up would somehow make their position better. Everyone knows that revelations of that sort come out eventually.

    Therefore I'm questioning the entire premise behind your post. Why are you assuming that the cover up was the best way of keeping people faithful to the RCC?


  • #77
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Ok but some people do seem to be saying that christianity's teachings allow the abuse of children and that by remaining part of the faith we are somehow complicit.

    Yes. It's an opportunity to try and claim so and try and convince as many people as possible that is true. Lay people continue to abuse children and cover it up every day in this country.


  • #78
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    Why are you assuming that the cover up was the best way of keeping people faithful to the RCC?
    Because at the start they believed that hushing it up would work, because hushing it up had always worked before.

    Even now, around 20% or so of the population still go to catholic churches regularly. It's a credit to the horrendous power of religious brainwashing that they can still command this number after 20 years of increasingly grim revelations.

    Why do people still support this despicable organization? Brainwashing aside, I have absolutely no idea.


  • #79
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    robindch wrote: »
    Because at the start they believed that hushing it up would work, because hushing it up had always worked before.

    Even now, around 20% or so of the population still go to catholic churches regularly. It's a credit to the horrendous power of religious brainwashing that they can still command this number after 20 years of revelations which only get worse with time, not better.
    and they have even lost the excuse of "oh those were different times blah blah blah". So the only excuse left now is "a few bad apples".


  • #80
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    axer wrote: »
    and they have even lost the excuse of "oh those were different times blah blah blah". So the only excuse left now is "a few bad apples".

    Bearing in mind the golden thread of justice is that you are innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt by the state in a court of law.

    What % of priests abused children, and what % of Bishops covered it up ?


  • #81
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Lay people continue to abuse children and cover it up every day in this country.
    With ~90% of the country catholic, that suggests that the believers are as bad as the catholic leadership. Even if they don't have an external state co-ordinating the coverups.


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  • #82
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    What % of priests abused children, and what % of Bishops covered it up ?
    and what percentage of priests either knew it was going on or heard about it? Those would be great answers to get but tbh for me I cannot understand how anyone good could be still a priest in such an organisation when it is rotten to the core. Surely the good priests should be so shocked that they leave for moral reasons.


  • #83
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robindch wrote: »
    Because at the start they believed that hushing it up would work, because hushing it up had always worked before.

    When has it worked ultimately for anyone? If they genuinely believed that people would never find out that's the height of naivety.


  • #84
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Lay people continue to abuse children and cover it up every day in this country.
    Yes, and they should be all prosecuted too. The difference is that the rcc claim to be a compass of morality when they are the most immoral of all.


  • #85
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    axer wrote: »
    and what percentage of priests either knew it was going on or heard about it? Those would be great answers to get but tbh for me I cannot understand how anyone good could be still a priest in such an organisation when it is rotten to the core. Surely the good priests should be so shocked that they leave for moral reasons.

    How can you stil be an Irish citizen when Ireland inc. is rotten to the core ?

    How can you stil bank with Irish banks when they are rotten to the core ?

    etc. etc. etc.


  • #86
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    axer wrote: »
    The difference is that the rcc claim to be a compass of morality when they are the most immoral of all.

    What % of them ?


  • #87
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    What % of priests abused children, and what % of Bishops covered it up ?
    Both the Cloyne report and the Dublin archdiocese agree that around 7-8% of priests are either convicted child abusers or have had credible allegations made against them. It does not include priests who engaged in abuse, but haven't had allegations recorded against them (anecdotal evidence suggests this may be a non-trivial number).

    Figures for bishops are harder to establish, but I believe around 25% of bishops are known to have known about abusing priests. The real figure is probably much higher.


  • #88
    housetypeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭housetypeb


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Yes. It's an opportunity to try and claim so and try and convince as many people as possible that is true. Lay people continue to abuse children and cover it up every day in this country.

    Lay people do abuse children but I doubt that they could count on their peers to keep quite about it, as seems to be the case in the catholic church.


  • #89
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    robindch wrote: »
    Both the Cloyne report and the Dublin archdiocese agree that around 7-8% of priests are either convicted child abusers or have had credible allegations made against them. It does not include priests who engaged in abuse, but haven't had allegations recorded against them (anecdotal evidence suggests this may be a non-trivial number).

    Figures for bishops are harder to establish, but I believe around 25% of bishops are known to have known about abusing priests. The real figure is probably much higher.

    Ok, so where does that leave the 90% of Priests, 75% of Bishops, and 90% of the lay people who are not guilty ?


  • #90
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    How can you stil be an Irish citizen when Ireland inc. is rotten to the core ?

    How can you stil bank with Irish banks when they are rotten to the core ?

    etc. etc. etc.

    The Irish State and Anglo are gods representatives on earth now?


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  • #91
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Ok, so where does that leave the 90% of Priests, 75% of Bishops, and 90% of the lay people who are not guilty ?

    Not guilty, but the institution that is the catholic church still with no credibility.


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