Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Cloynes Report, Christianity, etc etc

245678

Comments

  • #32
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    pH: The beliefs if they were truly held to would have encouraged them to hand over abusers to authorities and to tell the truth.
    No true scotsman.

    That's a lousy argument.


  • #33
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    philologos wrote: »
    pH: The beliefs if they were truly held to would have encouraged them to hand over abusers to authorities and to tell the truth.

    So can I take from that that you're saying that "For most of the 60s, 70s and 80s a lot of the Hierarchy of the Irish catholic church weren't Christians"?

    I mean someone doesn't truly hold central beliefs of Christianity you can hardly call them a Christian can you?


  • #34
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robindch wrote: »
    No true scotsman.

    That's a lousy argument.

    I've shown rather clearly that Christian belief (based on the Biblical text) encourages accountability to the State. They failed to do that, therefore I can conclude that they failed to keep to the beliefs they claim to have held to.


  • #35
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    philologos wrote: »
    pH: The beliefs if they were truly held to would have encouraged them to hand over abusers to authorities and to tell the truth.

    .....and should have compelled (the much vaunted) 'good' Irish lay people and clergy to have acted long ago.
    At this stage, you can not call; attending mass, contributing to the upkeep of a corrupt institution, as the actions of 'good' people.
    As you say the RCC is but a subset of christianity. Our 'good' Catholics need to grasp that fact.


  • #36
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    pH wrote: »
    So can I take from that that you're saying that "For most of the 60s, 70s and 80s a lot of the Hierarchy of the Irish catholic church weren't Christians"?

    I mean someone doesn't truly hold central beliefs of Christianity you can hardly call them a Christian can you?

    So the Pope isn't a Catholic? :eek:


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    dvpower wrote: »
    So the Pope isn't a Catholic? :eek:

    Pope's still a Catholic, we're trying to figure out if he's a Christian! :D


  • #38
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    If they were honest they would replace their cross with the swastika


  • #39
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    I've shown rather clearly that Christian belief (based on the Biblical text) encourages accountability to the State.
    Yes, and you've already agreed (wrt China) that state law can be ignored if it conflict with religious belief.

    You've just demonstrated the same contradiction yourself.

    QED.


  • #40
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    We're discussing as to whether or not Christianity encourages and facilitates child abuse. There is no real textual evidence to back that up. There is textual evidence to suggest that Christianity discourages it. That's what I'm going on.

    Unless you're comparing the right to believe, worship and pray to God to child abuse?


  • #41
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    philologos wrote: »
    We're discussing as to whether or not Christianity encourages and facilitates child abuse.

    No, you'd LIKE us to be discussing that, because the answer is probably a reasonably simple "no".

    We're actually discussing whether we could reasonably expect Christians (based on their beliefs) not to engage in systematic and long term child abuse and then cover it up.

    Your answer so far seems to be yes we should expect them not to, therefore they're not Christians.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    Unless you're comparing the right to believe, worship and pray to God to child abuse?
    You're still not getting it.

    Look, it's quite simple really.

    The christians at the top of the catholic church thought that the could ignore the law because they believed that their religious beliefs were more important than the law.

    You think that chinese christians can ignore the law because you think that their religious beliefs are more important than the law.

    Your beliefs -- while being about different things, and different degrees of seriousness -- are the same.

    I can't really make it any simpler than that.


  • #43
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    The Chinese Christians are ignoring the law because they feel that the worship of God is more important than not doing this.

    The RCC abuse has nothing to do with belief whatsoever. It has to do with people, greed, power and so on. There is nothing Christian about it.


  • #44
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    robindch wrote: »
    You think that chinese christians can ignore the law because you think that their religious beliefs are more important than the law.
    I would argue that Chinese law restricting religion is in violation of the universal declaration of human rights, which China ratified, and that the UDHR takes presidence over any countries law.


  • #45
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    The Chinese will change the law soon as the church's brainwashing would support the new right wing China.


  • #46
    Skrynesaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    philologos wrote: »
    The Chinese Christians are ignoring the law because they feel that the worship of God is more important than not doing this.

    The RCC abuse has nothing to do with belief whatsoever. It has to do with people, greed, power and so on. There is nothing Christian about it.

    Still not getting it, you believe that obedience to laws that would endanger souls in China is optional for a christian, yes?

    So, if the hierarchy of the rcc decide that embarrassment to the church may foster un-belief in their flock, surely they, by the same logic, are obliged to do all in their power to protect holy mother church, rather than see those souls lost to god, no?


  • #47
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Skrynesaver wrote: »
    Still not getting it, you believe that obedience to laws that would endanger souls in China is optional for a christian, yes?

    They're not optional. They aren't to be followed if you are a Christian. They would rather be imprisoned. The State is to be followed in so far as they do not revoke God's authority.
    Skrynesaver wrote: »
    So, if the hierarchy of the rcc decide that embarrassment to the church may foster un-belief in their flock, surely they, by the same logic, are obliged to do all in their power to protect holy mother church, no?

    They might decide to do this. Unfortunately for them Christianity demands accountability and honesty. It doesn't encourage hiding from wrongdoing. As I've said already if they really wanted to protect the church the logical option would have been to bring the truth to the Gardaí and have them prosecuted.


  • #48
    Skrynesaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    Anyway, it seems Mr. Gilmore is going to have a chat with the papal nonce in his role as MoFA. I wonder if the whole "you don't have to obey the states law where to do so might embarrass the church" line that Rome peddled to bishop McGee will be brought up and if so will the embassy to Rome remain, after all we do need to make cut-backs


  • #49
    Omentum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Omentum


    I think that anyone that supports a church which covered up and facilatated the rape of children, really need to question who God is. And if he really existed, where was he when the altar boys needed him.

    If you want to know god, maybe get out of the church?


  • #50
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Was listening to the radio on the way over to the shop at lunch just there (RTE I think) and there was a Fr. PJ Madden (Association of Catholic Priests) who said that if a priest came to him tomorrow and told him in confession that he has sexually abused a child then he while he would urge the priest to go to the relevant authorities he would not go and tell them himself as his religion is above the law.

    Nothing has changed in that f'ucked up organisation.


  • #51
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,529 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    robindch wrote: »
    You're still not getting it.

    Look, it's quite simple really.

    The christians at the top of the catholic church thought that the could ignore the law because they believed that their religious beliefs were more important than the law.

    Again, I don't think they believed their religious beliefs were more important than the law, moreso I think they believed that their religious organisation was more important than the law, and the victims of this abuse.


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    Omentum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Omentum


    axer wrote: »
    Was listening to the radio on the way over to the shop at lunch just there (RTE I think) and there was a Fr. PJ Madden (Association of Catholic Priests) who said that if a priest came to him tomorrow and told him in confession that he has sexually abused a child then he while he would urge the priest to go to the relevant authorities he would not go and tell them himself as his religion is above the law.

    Nothing has changed in that f'ucked up organisation.

    Yeah and anyone who supports them, by going to mass and doing anything, is illicit in it. Simple.


  • #53
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,529 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    axer wrote: »
    Was listening to the radio on the way over to the shop at lunch just there (RTE I think) and there was a Fr. PJ Madden (Association of Catholic Priests) who said that if a priest came to him tomorrow and told him in confession that he has sexually abused a child then he while he would urge the priest to go to the relevant authorities he would not go and tell them himself as his religion is above the law.

    Nothing has changed in that f'ucked up organisation.

    Now that is disgusting to hear. After everything, after all that has come out, after all the reports and scandals, to hear any priest even suggest such a thing is damn right disgusting. He should be forced to retire now, along with any other priest who thinks the same


  • #54
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    "his religion is above the law"
    he is right his silly religion is above the law


  • #55
    Omentum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Omentum


    Barrington wrote: »
    He should be forced to retire now, along with any other priest who thinks the same

    In fairness they should all be forced to retire. The problem will continue as long as the organisation still exists.


  • #56
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Skrynesaver wrote: »
    Anyway, it seems Mr. Gilmore is going to have a chat with the papal nonce in his role as MoFA.

    It'll be the same diplomatic face saving nonsense as was revealed in Wiki-leaks about the Shannon stopover.
    i.e.; Gilmore publicly saying what the public want to hear while privately doing something completely different.

    Let's start putting some of these evil men and women behind bars and ridding this country of double speaking agents of evil.


  • #57
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    So in effect was there a two tier law system in Ireland?


  • #58
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    pH wrote: »
    If this is what the problem was, i.e. that the church wanted to protect the organisation rather than see justice for victims (which would have publicly humiliated the church) they could still have moved these priests to monasteries or parochial homes, retreats or shelters, the catholic church has worldwide reach, surely places away from children and far away from where the abuse happened could have been found.

    Instead, in many cases, they seem to swept the abuse under the carpet and moved the offender to an identical position in another parish. This behaviour doesn't seem to be in keeping with a desire to protect the church, it seems more like they really didn't see it as a problem, they didn't really care and they protected their own above all others.
    I would blame the failed solutions they came up with as a combination of denial, naiveté and stupidity.

    Denial that the problem was as bad as it was, naiveté as to how remorseful and reformed 'first time' offenders were, and stupidity to think it would all go away.

    Oh, and an utter contempt for rights of the people who they deign to preach morality to.


  • #59
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Can a person be Catholic without believing in papal infallibility?

    Has the Pope displayed infallibility wrt the Irish scandals?

    Sorry I think these questions are related to the thread.


  • #60
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    The same way one can be a Catholic without believing in transubstantiation, or attending mass regularly, or using contraceptives.

    It just makes you a "bad Catholic", apparently.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Morgans wrote: »
    Can a person be Catholic without believing in papal infallibility?

    Has the Pope displayed infallibility wrt the Irish scandals?

    Sorry I think these questions are related to the thread.

    I think there is a misunserstanding on the ideas of ipapal infallibility. It doesn;t mean everything he says is true just certain statements. The ascension of Mary is supposed to be one of those things.
    Open to correction though.


Advertisement