Unions call to not pay mortgages

Is mise le key · 11-07-2011 10:08am

sarumite wrote: »

I think you are misrepresenting my views. I believe wholeheartedly in a 'hand up', just not always in a 'hand out'. I am not a fundamental capitalist. From an Irish prespective I am probably more fiscally conservative than most of my peers.Personally I currently have fallen on hard times as I am not eligable to recieve state benefits and I do not have an income. I am lucky that my partner has a stable job. I am currently living off my savings. I am not in favour of cutting all JSA or stopping all social housing .As such I share your final thoughts myself. However if you were to fall on hard times and never make an effort to get back on your feet, then continuing to provide you assistance is a detriment to the both of us.

I dont think i am misrepresenting your views really, it sounds to me like you dont really have an issue with Socialist policies as long as we ensure we dont have spongers milking the system, i agree with that 100%.

I have been fortunate enough to have never been out of work since i began working almost 20 years ago, i work 8 hours a day & do not bring my work into my family life when i leave but i work damn hard when i am in work. I dont agree with me having to carry anyone, but if they are putting in their best effort & that is not as good as mine then i dont have an issue with that.

I always say to my son regarding exams, as long as he gives it 100% & his best shot i dont care what grade he receives, if he has truly tried his best then you can ask no more & this is when i propose we have an obligation then as a society to ensure all are provided for regardless of their ability.

ei.sdraob · 11-07-2011 10:09am

Is mise le key wrote: »

You see Socialism represents an evolution in the thinking of man away from the primal instinct of accumulating as much as you can personally, we strive to share out what we all have collectivley so no one should have a less than par quality of life.

For ****s sake will you invest in a history book please before trying to sell your used snake oil

Debtocracy · 11-07-2011 10:58am

Is mise le key wrote: »

You see Socialism represents an evolution in the thinking of man away from the primal instinct of accumulating as much as you can personally, we strive to share out what we all have collectivley so no one should have a less than par quality of life.

Cooperation is a primal instinct among humans. Our chimpanzee ancestors ran into such difficult times that they had to evolve a cooperative instinct to survive. If our animal ancestors just looked after themselves and their own family, they would have been selcted out of the gene pool and we would not be here today. The mechanism is reciprocal cooperation.

Debtocracy · 11-07-2011 11:10am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

For ****s sake will you invest in a history book please before trying to sell your used snake oil

Could you specify the casual link underlying your assumption that wealth redistribution leads to mass murder. From the looks of the graph, there also seems to be a link between dodgy facial hair and mass murder.

ei.sdraob · 11-07-2011 11:15am

Marx wrote:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

Someone has to decide on the abilities
Someone has to decide on the needs
Someone has to redistribute from abilities to needs

Socialism by its very nature leads to authoritarianism,
its attempts to go against human needs and desires and change people leads to murder and repression

It has happened over and over during the 20th century and present as various states decided to run experiments on their people.

Aside: currently in Ireland we are doing very well following Marx:
From each (taxpayer) according to his ability, to each (banker,unionist,ps worker,solicitor,accountant,welfare recipient) according to his need (as decided by our ever so wise government)

aside2: or take this thread
From each (person who avoided the bubble madness) according to his ability (and savings), to each (reckless mortgage owner) according to his need (who dont want to admit they made a booboo)

sarumite · 11-07-2011 11:39am

Is mise le key wrote: »

I dont think i am misrepresenting your views really, it sounds to me like you dont really have an issue with Socialist policies as long as we ensure we dont have spongers milking the system, i agree with that 100%.

I do not believe " From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" works in society. Even if you were to eradicate spongers, I still have fundamental problems with socialism in practice. As such I do have an issue with socialism, if I assume that statement is the essence of it.

ei.sdraob · 11-07-2011 11:40am

Is mise le key wrote: »

as long as we ensure we dont have spongers milking the system, i agree with that 100%.

So how do Socialists deal with "spongers"? Send em to Siberia??

Dyr · 11-07-2011 12:32pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So how do Socialists deal with "spongers"? Send em to Siberia??

Would you be a socialist if they did? :P

Liam Byrne · 11-07-2011 5:21pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but surely it's in your best interests to pay back money you borrowed, rather than simply steal it?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

From each (person who avoided the bubble madness) according to his ability (and savings), to each (reckless mortgage owner) according to his need (who dont want to admit they made a booboo)

Under normal circumstances these would both be valid points.

However since FF stole €22,000 (and climbing) from each of us (both those who were reckless and those of us who weren't) to bail out the banks, that amount at least plus the relevant interest, should be deducted from everyone's mortgage or loans.

I also wouldn't equate "ability" with "savings & pay", given the ridiculous amounts that some people get paid.

Godge · 11-07-2011 6:30pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Under normal circumstances these would both be valid points.

However since FF stole €22,000 (and climbing) from each of us (both those who were reckless and those of us who weren't) to bail out the banks, that amount at least plus the relevant interest, should be deducted from everyone's mortgage or loans.

I also wouldn't equate "ability" with "savings & pay", given the ridiculous amounts that some people get paid.

And where will this money come from?
And why only mortgage holders to benefit?

Silly idea.

hmmm · 11-07-2011 9:24pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

However since FF stole €22,000 (and climbing) from each of us (both those who were reckless and those of us who weren't) to bail out the banks, that amount at least plus the relevant interest, should be deducted from everyone's mortgage or loans.

Great, now those of us who don't have mortgages have just had 44,000 stolen from us. Socialism for the landowners - I'm greatly amused by all these "socialist" posters fighting to have renters bail out those who own property.

Godge · 11-07-2011 10:13pm

hmmm wrote: »

Great, now those of us who don't have mortgages have just had 44,000 stolen from us. Socialism for the landowners - I'm greatly amused by all these "socialist" posters fighting to have renters bail out those who own property.

Then again, as a property owning capitalist, if someone wants to pay my bills while I keep my property...............

Cookie_Monster · 12-07-2011 8:33am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

However since FF stole €22,000 (and climbing) from each of us (both those who were reckless and those of us who weren't) to bail out the banks, that amount at least plus the relevant interest, should be deducted from everyone's mortgage or loans.

I have no loans or mortgage, like quite a large % of the population I imagine, do we just lose out to again then while everyone with debt once again gets a freebie

Is mise le key · 12-07-2011 8:38am

It has worked quite well here,

http://www.pressenza.com/npermalink/icelandx-a-country-that-wants-to-punish-the-bankers-responsible-for-the-crisis

Since 2008 the vast majority of the Western population dream about saying "no" to the banks, but no one has dared to do so. No one except the Icelanders, who have carried out a peaceful revolution that has managed not only to overthrow a government and draft a new constitution, but also seeks to jail those responsible for the country's economic debacle.

3/31/11
Pressenza Pressenza International Press Agency Reikjavik, 3/28/11 Last week 9 people were arrested in London and Reykjavik for their possible responsibility for Iceland’s financial collapse in 2008, a deep crisis which developed into an unprecedented public reaction that is changing the country's direction.
It has been a revolution without weapons in Iceland, the country that hosts the world's oldest democracy (since 930), and whose citizens have managed to effect change by going on demonstrations and banging pots and pans. Why have the rest of the Western countries not even heard about it?
Pressure from Icelandic citizens’ has managed not only to bring down a government, but also begin the drafting of a new constitution (in process) and is seeking to put in jail those bankers responsible for the financial crisis in the country. As the saying goes, if you ask for things politely it is much easier to get them.
This quiet revolutionary process has its origins in 2008 when the Icelandic government decided to nationalise the three largest banks, Landsbanki, Kaupthing and Glitnir, whose clients were mainly British, and North and South American.
After the State took over, the official currency (krona) plummeted and the stock market suspended its activity after a 76% collapse. Iceland was becoming bankrupt and to save the situation, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) injected U.S. $ 2,100 million and the Nordic countries helped with another 2,500 million.
Great little victories of ordinary people
While banks and local and foreign authorities were desperately seeking economic solutions, the Icelandic people took to the streets and their persistent daily demonstrations outside parliament in Reykjavik prompted the resignation of the conservative Prime Minister Geir H. Haarde and his entire government.
Citizens demanded, in addition, to convene early elections, and they succeeded. In April a coalition government was elected, formed by the Social Democratic Alliance and the Left Green Movement, headed by a new Prime Minister, Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir.
Throughout 2009 the Icelandic economy continued to be in a precarious situation (at the end of the year the GDP had dropped by 7%) but, despite this, the Parliament proposed to repay the debt to Britain and the Netherlands with a payment of 3,500 million Euros, a sum to be paid every month by Icelandic families for 15 years at 5.5% interest.
The move sparked anger again in the Icelanders, who returned to the streets demanding that, at least, that decision was put to a referendum. Another big small victory for the street protests: in March 2010 that vote was held and an overwhelming 93% of the population refused to repay the debt, at least with those conditions.
This forced the creditors to rethink the deal and improve it, offering 3% interest and payment over 37 years. Not even that was enough. The current president, on seeing that Parliament approved the agreement by a narrow margin, decided last month not to approve it and to call on the Icelandic people to vote in a referendum so that they would have the last word.
The bankers are fleeing in fear
Returning to the tense situation in 2010, while the Icelanders were refusing to pay a debt incurred by financial sharks without consultation, the coalition government had launched an investigation to determine legal responsibilities for the fatal economic crisis and had already arrested several bankers and top executives closely linked to high risk operations.
Interpol, meanwhile, had issued an international arrest warrant against Sigurdur Einarsson, former president of one of the banks. This situation led scared bankers and executives to leave the country en masse.
In this context of crisis, an assembly was elected to draft a new constitution that would reflect the lessons learned and replace the current one, inspired by the Danish constitution.
To do this, instead of calling experts and politicians, Iceland decided to appeal directly to the people, after all they have sovereign power over the law. More than 500 Icelanders presented themselves as candidates to participate in this exercise in direct democracy and write a new constitution. 25 of them, without party affiliations, including lawyers, students, journalists, farmers and trade union representatives were elected.
Among other developments, this constitution will call for the protection, like no other, of freedom of information and expression in the so-called Icelandic Modern Media Initiative, in a bill that aims to make the country a safe haven for investigative journalism and freedom of information, where sources, journalists and Internet providers that host news reporting are protected.
The people, for once, will decide the future of the country while bankers and politicians witness the transformation of a nation from the sidelines.

Godge · 12-07-2011 11:09am

Is mise le key wrote: »

It has worked quite well here,

http://www.pressenza.com/npermalink/icelandx-a-country-that-wants-to-punish-the-bankers-responsible-for-the-crisis
Since 2008 the vast majority of the Western population dream about saying "no" to the banks, but no one has dared to do so. No one except the Icelanders, who have carried out a peaceful revolution that has managed not only to overthrow a government and draft a new constitution, but also seeks to jail those responsible for the country's economic debacle.
3/31/11
Pressenza Pressenza International Press Agency Reikjavik, 3/28/11 Last week 9 people were arrested in London and Reykjavik for their possible responsibility for Iceland’s financial collapse in 2008, a deep crisis which developed into an unprecedented public reaction that is changing the country's direction.
It has been a revolution without weapons in Iceland, the country that hosts the world's oldest democracy (since 930), and whose citizens have managed to effect change by going on demonstrations and banging pots and pans. Why have the rest of the Western countries not even heard about it?
Pressure from Icelandic citizens’ has managed not only to bring down a government, but also begin the drafting of a new constitution (in process) and is seeking to put in jail those bankers responsible for the financial crisis in the country. As the saying goes, if you ask for things politely it is much easier to get them.
This quiet revolutionary process has its origins in 2008 when the Icelandic government decided to nationalise the three largest banks, Landsbanki, Kaupthing and Glitnir, whose clients were mainly British, and North and South American.
After the State took over, the official currency (krona) plummeted and the stock market suspended its activity after a 76% collapse. Iceland was becoming bankrupt and to save the situation, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) injected U.S. $ 2,100 million and the Nordic countries helped with another 2,500 million.
Great little victories of ordinary people
While banks and local and foreign authorities were desperately seeking economic solutions, the Icelandic people took to the streets and their persistent daily demonstrations outside parliament in Reykjavik prompted the resignation of the conservative Prime Minister Geir H. Haarde and his entire government.
Citizens demanded, in addition, to convene early elections, and they succeeded. In April a coalition government was elected, formed by the Social Democratic Alliance and the Left Green Movement, headed by a new Prime Minister, Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir.
Throughout 2009 the Icelandic economy continued to be in a precarious situation (at the end of the year the GDP had dropped by 7%) but, despite this, the Parliament proposed to repay the debt to Britain and the Netherlands with a payment of 3,500 million Euros, a sum to be paid every month by Icelandic families for 15 years at 5.5% interest.
The move sparked anger again in the Icelanders, who returned to the streets demanding that, at least, that decision was put to a referendum. Another big small victory for the street protests: in March 2010 that vote was held and an overwhelming 93% of the population refused to repay the debt, at least with those conditions.
This forced the creditors to rethink the deal and improve it, offering 3% interest and payment over 37 years. Not even that was enough. The current president, on seeing that Parliament approved the agreement by a narrow margin, decided last month not to approve it and to call on the Icelandic people to vote in a referendum so that they would have the last word.
The bankers are fleeing in fear
Returning to the tense situation in 2010, while the Icelanders were refusing to pay a debt incurred by financial sharks without consultation, the coalition government had launched an investigation to determine legal responsibilities for the fatal economic crisis and had already arrested several bankers and top executives closely linked to high risk operations.
Interpol, meanwhile, had issued an international arrest warrant against Sigurdur Einarsson, former president of one of the banks. This situation led scared bankers and executives to leave the country en masse.
In this context of crisis, an assembly was elected to draft a new constitution that would reflect the lessons learned and replace the current one, inspired by the Danish constitution.
To do this, instead of calling experts and politicians, Iceland decided to appeal directly to the people, after all they have sovereign power over the law. More than 500 Icelanders presented themselves as candidates to participate in this exercise in direct democracy and write a new constitution. 25 of them, without party affiliations, including lawyers, students, journalists, farmers and trade union representatives were elected.
Among other developments, this constitution will call for the protection, like no other, of freedom of information and expression in the so-called Icelandic Modern Media Initiative, in a bill that aims to make the country a safe haven for investigative journalism and freedom of information, where sources, journalists and Internet providers that host news reporting are protected.
The people, for once, will decide the future of the country while bankers and politicians witness the transformation of a nation from the sidelines.

And the relevance to Ireland is what?

We made the free choice to guarantee our banks when nobody else did. We didn't have to do it. FF, the Central Bank and the Department of Finance panicked. We live with the consequences of our free choice.

Iceland took a different course. That involved interest rates going to 18%. Hardly a mortgage in Ireland would be affordable at that rate. Even today they are still at nearly 5% and likely to rise rather than fall.

Is mise le key · 12-07-2011 11:43am

Godge wrote: »

And the relevance to Ireland is what?

We made the free choice to guarantee our banks when nobody else did. We didn't have to do it. FF, the Central Bank and the Department of Finance panicked. We live with the consequences of our free choice.

Iceland took a different course. That involved interest rates going to 18%. Hardly a mortgage in Ireland would be affordable at that rate. Even today they are still at nearly 5% and likely to rise rather than fall.

Well as part of an exit from the euro enabling us to devalue, control our own banks interest rates, write off the neagtive equity on mortgages, issue our own currency (i think the yanks spun a great term for it, 'Quantitive easing'), oh and undo the guarantee FF gave the banks as they stand handing back the debts to the talented private enterprise people who ran them & taking the institutions into full state control free of that debt.

Now i know its easy to type all that & that it has a lot of risk also attached to it but it is undeniable, the writing is clearly on the wall regarding the cohesion of the EU, italy is now shaking as we all knew it would, next will be belgium, then potentially france, the game is up & we are in extra time only now.

I have to ask all on here who oppose me, what is your solution to where we find our country, continent & world?

You are asking me what i propose all along, i am am offering my solutions even if you dont agree with them, what do you guys propose as to how to end this madness.

And i must insist you answer in the context of there being no EU as we know it?

Godge · 12-07-2011 11:56am

Is mise le key wrote: »

Well as part of an exit from the euro enabling us to devalue, control our own banks interest rates, write off the neagtive equity on mortgages, issue our own currency (i think the yanks spun a great term for it, 'Quantitive easing'), oh and undo the guarantee FF gave the banks as they stand handing back the debts to the talented private enterprise people who ran them & taking the institutions into full state control free of that debt.

Now i know its easy to type all that & that it has a lot of risk also attached to it but it is undeniable, the writing is clearly on the wall regarding the cohesion of the EU, italy is now shaking as we all knew it would, next will be belgium, then potentially france, the game is up & we are in extra time only now.

I have to ask all on here who oppose me, what is your solution to where we find our country, continent & world?

You are asking me what i propose all along, i am am offering my solutions even if you dont agree with them, what do you guys propose as to how to end this madness.

And i must insist you answer in the context of there being no EU as we know it?

Well, you see, I am not going to play on that pitch. In my opinion, while the EU has been very slow to realise that the problem is not just Greece, Ireland and Portugal and that a wider solution is needed, that does not mean the EU will fall apart nor does it mean our best interests are served outside the EU.

andrew · 12-07-2011 12:01pm

Is mise le key wrote: »

Now i know its easy to type all that & that it has a lot of risk also attached to it but it is undeniable, the writing is clearly on the wall regarding the cohesion of the EU, italy is now shaking as we all knew it would, next will be belgium, then potentially france, the game is up & we are in extra time only now.

Firstly, to say that it has 'a lot' of risk attached implies that there's a chance of a good outcome resulting from this, which isn't the case. Secondly, the game isn't 'up' and Belgium and France are fine.

I have to ask all on here who oppose me, what is your solution to where we find our country, continent & world?

Well, I'd oppose you. I don't have a solution, but your 'solution' is a bad idea. Lets say tomorrow Ireland announced it was going to leave the euro. Immediately, people try to remove their cash from Irish banks, so there's a bank run. Bank holiday is announced, so everyone's money is converted to punts which are immediately devalued. Now, imports, which we use a lot more of, become more expensive. The Irish soverign debt burden, which is denominated in Euros, becomes even more burdensome. the Irish government finds the interest rates on it's new bonds still quite high. Ireland endures a few more years of recession. Great.

Exports would help to save it, were it not for the fact that our leaving the euro prompted other countries to do the same. Major european economies such as Germany are plunged into recession as their banks take a massive hit, since Greece defaults on it's loans and goes back to the drachma. The uncertainty with regard to who's exposed to european debt causes another worldwide credit crunch, Lehman style, and confidance in the already fragile worldwide recovery is ruined. So now, nobody wants our cheap exports anyway, because there's another giant recession.

I dunno what guarentee you're talking about, but if it's the guarentee on deposits, then that doesn't actually cost anything, so I don't see what the problem is. It just prevents bank runs, that's all. Irish banks are taken into state control, (well, they already are), but in your world they're debt free. Great, now we have a monopolistic state run bank, run by the same government which brings you such paragons of efficiency as the HSE. Banks give loans based upon political pressure, and become instrumnets of the government, and end up making constant mal-investments. With no view to ever becoming private again, this remains the case for a long time.

I could go on, but yeah; your solution is not a solution.

sarumite · 12-07-2011 12:04pm

Is mise le key wrote: »

You are asking me what i propose all along, i am am offering my solutions even if you dont agree with them, what do you guys propose as to how to end this madness.

And i must insist you answer in the context of there being no EU as we know it?

It is not that I don't agree with your solutions, I don't believe they are solutions. The devaluation of our currency would make 'quantitative easoning' impossible and it would also make importing many goods prohibitevly expensive. I am not sure there is a moral argument to write off all negative equity. With all that we have learned about how our public sector is managed, I have no faith that full state control of such institutions would bring any benefit. I am not about to offer nor accept any solutions that I think are totally unworkable or would make a bad situation worse. I believe what you offer fills both of those catagories.

Is mise le key · 12-07-2011 12:14pm

Right, we have kind of already discovered what i propose you do not agree with as a viable solution, i have still not seen any proposal in the last three posts that do offer any solution from your persepctive.

Play on whatever pitch you want if thats the case, offer me a solution within a capitalist framework, to this capitalist created problem please gents.

Godge · 12-07-2011 12:28pm

Is mise le key wrote: »

Right, we have kind of already discovered what i propose you do not agree with as a viable solution, i have still not seen any proposal in the last three posts that do offer any solution from your persepctive.

Play on whatever pitch you want if thats the case, offer me a solution within a capitalist framework, to this capitalist created problem please gents.

1. Recapitalise the banks
2. Sort out the regulation and management of banks to ensure it doesn't happen again
3. Tackle the structural budget deficit by reducing expenditure and incereasing taxation
4. As part of 3 shift the taxation burden into long-term sustainable taxation such as a property tax and away from taxes on economic activity
5. As part of 3 reform the public service to ensure both savings and better service and target social welfare payments at those who really need them as well as ensuring the removal of disincentives to work, both of these resulting in a lower expenditure bill
6. Tackle and reform the sheltered domestic private sector - doctors, pharmacists, vets, dentists, lawyers, accountants, retail distribution etc
7. Every citizen tackle their own personal financial position to the best of their ability and avail of new reformed bankruptcy laws if unable to do so.

None of those in any particular order.

What is wrong with the above? It is all in our own hands now that the EU/IMF have given us money to keep the show on the road for the next 18 months to 2 years. If we don't do this, we will have failed as a nation again and once more it will be our own fault.

Is mise le key · 12-07-2011 12:42pm

So pretty much the approach that the government past & present is taking which is going to fail as it is unaforrdable.

You see renowmed world economists like joseph stiglitz know this is unworkable, even major hedge fund operator george soros knows it wont work & has commented on it over a year & a half ago, this was tried & failed & the ECB/IMF know its unworkable but are painting themselves into a corner & will keep up the pressure & the illusion until the major privatisation programs can be rolled out in each country before the inevitable default comes.

Take a look at out national debt on the link in my sig, & the rest of the countries, this is not affordable for any nation, even the US.

ei.sdraob · 12-07-2011 12:47pm

andrew wrote: »

but if it's the guarentee on deposits, then that doesn't actually cost anything, so I don't see what the problem is.

Where were you for the last few years, the guarantee is the most crippling decision ever made by the state.

andrew · 12-07-2011 12:55pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Where were you for the last few years, the guarantee is the most crippling decision ever made by the state.

I was referring to the guarantee on deposits, not the 'guarantee' given to bondholders (which in reality existd when they agreed to become preferred bondholders in the first place; it's not something which the government suddenly introduced).

westies4ever · 12-07-2011 12:58pm

unions are as much to blame for the ruination of this country as the banks are

Gmol · 12-07-2011 1:07pm

baaaa wrote: »

"ones own massive financial errors"-Indeed,as a simple shopworker I caused this mess.I should have forseen this once in a century,black swan economic event, what with all my financial training and all.Apparently it is a massive financial error to want a roof over your head now.

Given that buying a house is probably the biggest financial investment of your life it was probably worth talking to people who have this 'financial training'
Also considering that you say that as a 'simple shopworker I caused this mess.I should have forseen this once in a century,black swan economic event,' would you not ask from these people with 'financial training' what the implications of people refusing to pay their mortgages would be?

professore · 12-07-2011 1:13pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Tenants have quite a number of real rights; look at all the landlord problems with troublesome tenants on our very own accommodation forum for an example.

They don't have a few very important rights:

1. They can't paint or otherwise decorate their apartment
2. The LL can double the rent overnight if he feels like it
3. They can be thrown out whenever the LL feels like it, subject to a short notice period.
4. It's very easy for a LL to withhold the deposit on spurious grounds.

Ironically, the only rights are awarded to difficult or scumbag tenants. Law abiding tenants who pay their rent every month have very little rights. If they don't pay on the other hand it's down to the LL to get them out, and if they have kids, it's a long process.

In fact the Tenant Right League in the 1850's campaigned for many of these things http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Fs and in 1881 the British granted them. Amazing that we don't have them now.

sarumite · 12-07-2011 1:39pm

Is mise le key wrote: »

So pretty much the approach that the government past & present is taking which is going to fail as it is unaforrdable.

So you think that plan is doomed to failure as it is unaffordable, I think your plan will actually make the situation worse, as such we seem to be up the creek and lacking some paddles if we are both right.

12-07-2011 1:42pm

Jocker wrote: »

Something I have noticed which I cannot get my head around is the lack of information about Ireland's natural resources and exactly what is happening or will happen to the earnings from oil being drilled in 1 hole off the Irish coast which will be due to start pumping in 2013 with a value of 650 billion.

Like the European Constition oops... I mean the Lisbon Treaty, you are not supposed to be able to get your head around it, being understood would begin to expose the corruption.
However no single hole in history has produced 650 billion, unless in some west african currency.

Is mise le key · 12-07-2011 1:52pm

sarumite wrote: »

So you think that plan is doomed to failure as it is unaffordable, I think your plan will actually make the situation worse, as such we seem to be up the creek and lacking some paddles if we are both right.

Yes, you see slowly i think the population are beginning to realise that the plan is failing, there is no solution to the debt that has been run up as unemployment is running high everywhere & the debt cannot be paid back.

Writing off of the debt is what has even been proposed as i have mentioned by Soros, one of the worlds big capitalist players.

Richard Boyd barrett commented recently at the ULA national forum, that it is becoming obvious that the majority of the people of the country agree with the ULA in that they understand that the debt is unsustainable & there will have to be, 'debt forgivness', 'debt restructuring', 'haircuts', 'defaults'.....whatever way you want to say it, but that they dont hold the political persuasion that the ULA does.

This is true, while the majority of the people are not of a Socialist politic they all know instinctivley what is coming.

Wer are up the creek without a paddle, the EU is going to fail in its current form, the current & previous strategy of our governments cannot solve this, we need a radical change & some real bold initiatives to hold our own in the coming years which are going to be a tempest.

greater revenue coming from the corrib gas project via 90% taxation would really make our prospects better & unfortunatley for countries like greecs etc they dont have anything like that to fall back on.

We need bold strong decisive action to maintain any kind of living standard for our country which we are not going to have if we allow the privatisation of all our state sources of wealth generation.

Unions call to not pay mortgages

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