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Fired for being Atheist (?)

124

Comments

  • #92
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    The sad thing in all this is that society has still not made progress towards the idea that indoctrinating your child as a parent is not good parenting. I don't mean raising the kid as jewish but seemingly shielding it from the real world and it's many other beliefs in an effort to bias it's already vulnerable decision making.

    I don't think any legal ramifications could (or should) ever be created but if I was in the OP's position I would see it as the mental version of smoking around your kid or feeding them nothing but fast food and would have quit before my lip started to bleed from my teeth diggin into it. If not I would have given the parent a good earful (away from the child).

    I say that while still agreeing that the OP did make a mistake in handling the situation.

    Well, yes, but it's sort of a separate issue. If a child, whose parents are not employing me to look after, asks me about god I'll tell them what I think. If a parent employs an au pair to look after the child in a manner they dicate then you really have to go along with that.


  • #93
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    I agree Malari. It's why I'd never stick the job. In my eyes it would be the same as if they wanted the child fed McDonalds every day. It would not be my place as an employee to question their decision but I couldn't work for them either.

    OP was probably better off long term.


  • #94
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,399 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    The sad thing in all this is that society has still not made progress towards the idea that indoctrinating your child as a parent is not good parenting. I don't mean raising the kid as jewish but seemingly shielding it from the real world and it's many other beliefs in an effort to bias it's already vulnerable decision making.

    I don't think any legal ramifications could (or should) ever be created but if I was in the OP's position I would see it as the mental version of smoking around your kid or feeding them nothing but fast food and would have quit before my lip started to bleed from my teeth diggin into it. If not I would have given the parent a good earful (away from the child).

    I say that while still agreeing that the OP did make a mistake in handling the situation.

    I don't really want to get into this too much but there are major differences between the proven ill effects of smoking around a child, bad diet for a child and bringing up your child in a religious setting. I don't think you can in any way compare all three.
    As for your assertion that bringing up your child in a religious setting is bad parenting - well - I don't know, I cant really agree with to be honest.
    Either way, these are different aspects than that which the OP outlined.


  • #95
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    I agree Malari. It's why I'd never stick the job. In my eyes it would be the same as if they wanted the child fed McDonalds every day. It would not be my place as an employee to question their decision but I couldn't work for them either.

    OP was probably better off long term.

    You know I actually do know a wealthy family who employed a chef to cook nothing but chicken nuggets, chips, beans, fishfingers for their kids. He got into trouble for cooking them some basic healthy chicken, pasta and sauce when he didn't realise there were no frozen nuggets left. Crazy, but them's the rules.


  • #96
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    pH wrote: »
    I mean some posters above (and yourself?) seem to be saying that telling the child you don't believe in God is fine, but having the temerity to spend 30 seconds pointing out the obvious flaws in reading Noah's story (hardly really a foundational piece of doctrine even in Judaism) in a literal way is the problem?
    I can see how a religious parent might see it as a problem, in this case.

    If the situation was reversed and one of my kids was chatting with an au pair, I'd have no problem with the au pair saying she (he?) believe in a god.

    If however the au pair asked why my potentially agnostic/undecided child believed the universe could come from nothing when everything required a creator (i.e. undermining a held belief) I would have strong words with her about keeping her beliefs to herself.


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  • #97
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    kippy wrote: »
    I don't really want to get into this too much but there are major differences between the proven ill effects of smoking around a child, bad diet for a child and bringing up your child in a religious setting. I don't think you can in any way compare all three.
    As for your assertion that bringing up your child in a religious setting is bad parenting - well - I don't know, I cant really agree with to be honest.
    Either way, these are different aspects than that which the OP outlined.

    Just to correct my point in case I wasn't clear. I have no problem with someone raising a child in a religious setting if one still educates the child fairly about other beliefs or at least be open about discussing them as best one can.
    I have a problem with a parent deciding a belief for a child and doing all in their power to make sure they can't evaluate their belief fairly. Children's decision making is vulnerable enough to those in authority without people making it even harder for them to make an informed decision at some point in their life by hiding or twisting other possibilities. Some don't even just hide or warp information but threaten children with shunning.

    And it's not just religion. For example I have huge issue with raising a child in the Amish belief system for the reasons set out above. I consider it bad parenting and while mental issues are harder to see than physical ones, there is no way keeping this kind of information from a child is a good thing.


  • #98
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    I could be wrong, but it seems the majority think that it's not ok to undermine the parents are teaching under normal circumstances.

    For me the more interesting question would therefore be, what if a parent decided that they didn't want an au pair of a different religion/no religion, when this person was willing to keep their views well out of their job and not influence the child with them. Something along the lines of Catholic schools wanting to teachers who live their lives in accordance with the ethos of the school. I remember a case (forgotten name) where a teacher was fired for having a child outside marriage? Are parents free to do the same? Or would that be religious discrimination?


  • #99
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,399 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Just to correct my point in case I wasn't clear. I have no problem with someone raising a child in a religious setting if one still educates the child fairly about other beliefs or at least be open about discussing them as best one can.
    I have a problem with a parent deciding a belief for a child and doing all in their power to make sure they can't evaluate their belief fairly. Children's decision making is vulnerable enough to those in authority without people making it even harder for them to make an informed decision at some point in their life by hiding or twisting other possibilities. Some don't even just hide or warp information but threaten children with shunning.

    And it's not just religion. For example I have huge issue with raising a child in the Amish belief system for the reasons set out above. I consider it bad parenting and while mental issues are harder to see than physical ones, there is no way keeping this kind of information from a child is a good thing.
    Thats a fair standpoint, apologies, I picked you up wrong earlier.


  • #100
    DarylH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭DarylH


    This is your fault. You have NO right to try and change or say things to a Child which is not your own child. The mother will bring that child into whatever religion she chooses and it is only up to the child if She wants to change her religion. You have 0 right to say anything. In Hindsight "Inappropriate" was the right word. Like a previous poster said. You should have been playing Hungry Hungry Hippos.


  • #101
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Sefirah wrote: »
    I had a really strange experience last week, and not sure if I should be angry, or simply laugh at the whole thing. I'm living in Israel, and recently got a job as an au-pair for an American single mom who recently moved here with her 7 year old daughter. Things were going dandy, til one day the daughter started spouting all kinds of nonsense about Noah's ark and drawing pictures etc. She started quizzing me about my religious beliefs, and I said that I didn't believe in God. When she (eventually) managed to get over the shock (her mouth literally fell open) she started asking me why and where I thought people came from and who created the world. I told her that I believed in the scientific explanation- the big bang, evolution etc, and felt that the biblical account was a little far fetched. I took the story of Noah's ark story as an example and asked her- What do you think the meat-eating animals ate while on the ark if there was only two of every animal? She gave me a pissed off look and started saying something about picking fish out of the sea, but then got distracted by the tv and that was the end of that. Or so I thought.

    The next day, I got a text message from her mother saying that I "made comments to her daughter which were grossly inappropriate and completely unacceptable" and that she "didn't feel this was a good fit for a working relationship". I'm just baffled- is it that she's afraid that I would interfere with the indoctrination or her child, or allow her to see things from a different perspective? In hindsight, perhaps it wasn't my place to discuss these things to begin with with someone else's child?

    Confusement...!!

    It most certainly wasn't and that is likely why you were fired, not because of beliefs but because her parents probably felt you were trying to force them on their daughter.

    You are of course completely entitled to your beliefs but you were not hired to convert the child. You overstepped the mark as an employee.

    If it were me, and I felt that something the family believed in was incorrect or made me uncomfortable, I would simply have either not taken the job in the first place or left it.


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  • #102
    Ridley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭Ridley


    To me:
    Sefirah wrote: »
    I told her that I believed in the scientific explanation- the big bang, evolution etc,

    Fine.
    Sefirah wrote: »
    and felt that the biblical account was a little far fetched.

    Not fine. Reads like you went from stating your opinion to telling them why they're wrong.

    Now, getting fired through text message and not discussing that is another matter. ;)


  • #103
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    DarylH wrote: »
    This is your fault. You have NO right to try and change or say things to a Child which is not your own child. The mother will bring that child into whatever religion she chooses and it is only up to the child if She wants to change her religion. You have 0 right to say anything. In Hindsight "Inappropriate" was the right word. Like a previous poster said. You should have been playing Hungry Hungry Hippos.

    And how can the child chose to change religion if the parent is hiding other beliefs (or lack thereof) from her?


  • #104
    ironingbored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭ironingbored


    crucamim wrote: »
    Common sense is not very common. And that applies to members of the teachng profession.

    This thread is an excellent argument for Jews having Jewish schools, Catholics having Catholic schools, Muslims having Muslim schools, secularists have secular schools etc, etc.

    The OP was not fired for being an atheist. She was fired for inappropriate conduct.

    This stance is partly responsible for the continuing bigotry and sectarianism in Northern Ireland.

    Watch the video with Dawkins interviewing students at an Islamic school. Truly disturbing.


  • #105
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    ironingbored wrote: »
    This stance is partly responsible for the continuing bigotry and sectarianism in Northern Ireland.

    Watch the video with Dawkins interviewing students at an Islamic school. Truly disturbing.

    How do you know why some people in Northern Ireland think and behave as they do? If your theory is correct, why have so many of the Protestant youths, who were educated in integrated schools, been involved in sectarian attacks on Catholics? e.g. the murderers of Michael McIlveen in Ballymena.

    Perhaps you might want to read about Alison McKeown and Thomas McDonald.


  • #106
    ironingbored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭ironingbored


    crucamim wrote: »
    How do you know why some people in Northern Ireland think and behave as they do? If your theory is correct, why have so many of the Protestant youths, who were educated in integrated schools, been involved in sectarian attacks on Catholics? e.g. the murderers of Michael McIlveen in Ballymena.

    Perhaps you might want to read about Alison McKeown and Thomas McDonald.

    So, you advocate schools based on sectarian divisions. I point out that this has contributed to fomenting bigotry and tribalism in Northern Ireland and your retort involves asking why certain Protestant youths take part in attacks on Catholics despite having attended integrated schools?

    In general, and studies have shown that, the existing school system in N.I. has exacerbated the overall social divisions.

    In relation to the OP, she crossed the line by commenting on the ridiculousness of the Noah's Ark story. Having said that, the mantra that people's beliefs should always be respected troubles me.

    If someone's beliefs are at odds with reality, do I have to respect that? This tiptoeing around religious beliefs really irks me. Burning bushes, wafers becoming someone's flesh, wine turning into blood, coming back to life, devils, flying horses, pillars of salt etc.

    Do I have to respect this hogwash? I'm sorry I don't.

    I respect human beings but I cannot respect beliefs such as the above.


  • #107
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ironingbored wrote: »
    the mantra that people's beliefs should always be respected troubles me.
    The only people saying that tend to be people with untenable beliefs.


  • #108
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    ironingbored wrote: »

    So, you advocate schools based on sectarian divisions.

    I most certainly do. Schools should reflect the society which they serve.


  • #109
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    ironingbored wrote: »


    In relation to the OP, she crossed the line by commenting on the ridiculousness of the Noah's Ark story. Having said that, the mantra that people's beliefs should always be respected troubles me.

    If someone's beliefs are at odds with reality, do I have to respect that? This tiptoeing around religious beliefs really irks me. Burning bushes, wafers becoming someone's flesh, wine turning into blood, coming back to life, devils, flying horses, pillars of salt etc.

    Do I have to respect this hogwash? I'm sorry I don't.

    I respect human beings but I cannot respect beliefs such as the above.

    If you cannot respect another person's culture, you should not be allowed to have power over that person's children.


  • #110
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    crucamim wrote: »
    Perhaps you might want to read about Alison McKeown and Thomas McDonald.

    I googled the names. Is this it? Doesn't say anything about what school he attended. Are you saying he attended a secular school?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eEnfs0WuOY


  • #111
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    recedite wrote: »
    I googled the names. Is this it? Doesn't say anything about what school he attended. Are you saying he attended a secular school?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eEnfs0WuOY

    He was a student at North Belfast's only integrated secondary school.


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  • #112
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    recedite wrote: »
    I googled the names. Is this it? Doesn't say anything about what school he attended. Are you saying he attended a secular school?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eEnfs0WuOY

    I am not sure that I understand what you mean by "a secular school".


  • #113
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    crucamim wrote: »
    He was a student at North Belfast's only integrated secondary school.

    So?


  • #114
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    So?

    His integrated education had obviously not persuaded him to refrain from throwing bricks at Catholics.


  • #115
    Yahew
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    mikhail wrote: »
    It's interesting to read this thread in the light of the recent debate on religious education in schools.

    It's utterly obvious from the replies here that the vast majority of atheists here (who, one might imagine are self-selected to be among the more vocal atheists) firmly believe that parents have a right to control their children's religious education.

    I had already suspected as much, but it does give the lie to the oft-insisted idea that as proponents of secular education we want to interfere with that right.
    crucamim wrote: »
    His integrated education had obviously not persuaded him to refrain from throwing bricks at Catholics.

    The interesting thing about this thread is just how inconsistent the modern atheist is. One minute religion is a form of child abuse, and the next we can't have au pairs interfering with this "abuse" of children. In certain circumstances it's obvious that parents should have no control over how their children are instructed religiously ( i.e. in schools, private or public, or in home schooling) and in certain circumstances they have absolute rights to have their children schooled religiously and someone acting in locus parentis ( an au-pair) can't interfere. Further, since nobody is opposed to the OP being fired, they accept that certain employers can religiously discriminate.

    Consistency please.


  • #116
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,186 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    crucamim wrote: »
    His integrated education had obviously not persuaded him to refrain from throwing bricks at Catholics.

    So your point is if a catholic goes to a secular school it won't affect their catholicism. Well thats good news. A testament to the power of bigotry in locations other than schools.


  • #117
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    crucamim wrote: »
    His integrated education had obviously not persuaded him to refrain from throwing bricks at Catholics.

    You expect all the problems of sectarianism to be solved in a generation?


  • #118
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    I can see no evidence that the OP was dismissed for being an atheist. He/She was dismissed for inappropriate conduct.


  • #119
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    mikhail wrote:
    It's interesting to read this thread in the light of the recent debate on religious education in schools.

    It's utterly obvious from the replies here that the vast majority of atheists here (who, one might imagine are self-selected to be among the more vocal atheists) firmly believe that parents have a right to control their children's religious education.

    I had already suspected as much, but it does give the lie to the oft-insisted idea that as proponents of secular education we want to interfere with that right.

    Grrrr.

    I have no problem with parents influencing their children's religious education that takes place in their own homes outside of the state funded schools.

    Grrr, says I.

    That is directed to you too Yahweh and your "consistency please" comment... My thoughts on religious discrimination in employment here, as previously posted on the Middle Earth forum.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70309130&postcount=75
    That is a very self centred view and also demonstrates an extremely discriminatory stance similar to the one you are saying Catholics are a victim of.

    Muslims know it is wrong to eat pork. They know this because the prophet Mohammed, their god Allah and their holy book teaches this.

    Their point is that a Muslim is perfectly entitled to be a chef or butcher and should not in any way be pressured or sacked because they won't engage in or enable the moral depravity of going against the word of Allah and eating unclean beasts. That is the crux of the matter and it is really not open to further debate.

    You appear to be complaining that dispensations are being made for everyone but Catholics (which I disagree with entirely and you have yet to provide evidence for) but that rather than wanting it be a situation where everyone is treated equally, dispensations should be made for Catholics on the grounds of their religious beliefs but not for anyone else, such as the Muslim chef. Or the Jew who won't work Saturdays. Or the Baha'i barman who refuses to serve alcohol.

    Do you think a restaurant should be forced to hire a waiter who due to their faith won't serve alcohol on a case of conscientious objection? Do you think if someone was employed by a restaurant and then after a week of working there the manager found out they were only willing to serve soft drinks and were refusing to serve the customers who requested an alcoholic drink one, the manager should be incapable of firing them on this ground?

    If I was to seek a job as an exterminator and in the interviews were to say "I'll exterminate anything but rats, they are sacred to me. I believe they house the souls of my people who have died and to kill them would be evil personified" do you believe I would be hired? If a pest control company refused to hire me on these grounds do you think I would have a case that I was being unfairly discriminated against? Should the employer be forced to hire me and then hire in another guy on day work whenever a rat job came in? Would he be wrong to sack me or ask me to leave if I didn't mention that I would not kill rats in the interview but then once the first rat job came up I refused to do it? (Not rhetorical question.)


  • #120
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    crucamim wrote: »
    His integrated education had obviously not persuaded him to refrain from throwing bricks at Catholics.

    crucamim are you sure it was the boy who was enrolled in the integrated school?

    Another google search throws up this;
    The Protestant teenager was knocked from his bicycle by a Catholic woman after he stoned her car at a sectarian flashpoint. The woman, a mother-of-five, was taking children to an integrated school when he threw a half-brick which struck the car windscreen. The woman drove after him, the car throwing the teenager in the air. She was found guilty of manslaughter by reason of provocation.
    source; http://www.ciarancummings.com/Belfast-Telegraph-06-12-04.html

    Its not impossible, but it would be some coincidence if she was driving her kids to the same school that he was mitching from.

    It seems to be as much a tragic case of road rage as anything sectarian, at least on her part.

    BTW I loved the music on that loyalist video, what did you think of it (the music)? :D


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  • #121
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    recedite wrote: »

    crucamim are you sure it was the boy who was enrolled in the integrated school? :D

    Yes.

    Alison McKeown's children were not attending that integrated secondary school or any other secondary school. They were all too young for secondary school.

    I do not think that young Mr McDonald was mitching from school. The attack on Alison McKeown took place after school hours.


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