Fired for being Atheist (?)

mikhail

Sefirah wrote: »

One thing I don't understand in this thread is the association being made between telling a child Santa isn't real, and telling a child that they themselves don't believe in God. At least (in the vast majority of cases) the idea of Santa is a force for good, which brings joy to a child's life, and which eventually ends later in their childhood. I would argue that religion is not a force for good, as it imposes a sense of fear in a child from a young age, fosters intolerance and is a lie which permeates their life. I just don't see the connection between the two

crucamim

Common sense is not very common. And that applies to members of the teachng profession.

This thread is an excellent argument for Jews having Jewish schools, Catholics having Catholic schools, Muslims having Muslim schools, secularists have secular schools etc, etc.

The OP was not fired for being an atheist. She was fired for inappropriate conduct.

The Israeli

Sefirah wrote: »

One thing I don't understand in this thread is the association being made between telling a child Santa isn't real, and telling a child that they themselves don't believe in God. At least (in the vast majority of cases) the idea of Santa is a force for good, which brings joy to a child's life, and which eventually ends later in their childhood. I would argue that religion is not a force for good, as it imposes a sense of fear in a child from a young age, fosters intolerance and is a lie which permeates their life. I just don't see the connection between the two

Well, you shouldn't tell a young child that Santa isn't real, if she loves Santa
Both atheists and believers grown ups know that Santa isn't real. However, they disagree on the existence of God.
Therefore.. If it's not your child and the mom trusts her child in your hands for a day, and you see that the child carries controversial ideas that are probably of her parents, you know not to discuss it with her.

The vaugeness is my point exactly. Simply drawing the line through what is legal and what is not I think is not good enough. It is a simple answer, yes, and perfectly workable in a good number of situations, but I think it is too simple an answer to be serviceable when moving on such a continuum such as this.

It very depends on the situation. In this situation specifically, she should have been more careful. After all, it's her job. If you are ready to break social codes - you have to be ready for the consequences.
I think that the OP wasn't aware that she was breaking any social code.

I am not sure that this was just an excuse to sack her, simply because we can't know for sure. Maybe the mother was a bit wacky, and instead of just summing her up for a talk, she decided to fire. But as I know how these situations roll, I agree that there must be more to it..

Sefirah

The Israeli wrote: »

Well, you shouldn't tell a young child that Santa isn't real, if she loves Santa

What if she's afraid that if she isn't good, then 'Santa' will send her to hell? And what if an older person believes in Santa and does wacky stuff because of it- do you tell?

People are concerned here about what a parent is telling their child, but if you have problems then the parent is the first port of call, not the child.
Particularly if you've been brought into the home as a caregiver

mikhail

crucamim wrote: »

Common sense is not very common. And that applies to members of the teachng profession.

This thread is an excellent argument for Jews having Jewish schools, Catholics having Catholic schools, Muslims having Muslim schools, secularists have secular schools etc, etc.

The OP was not fired for being an atheist. She was fired for inappropriate conduct.

Teachers have extensive training. Au-pairs do not.

The Israeli

Sefirah wrote: »

What if she's afraid that if she isn't good, then 'Santa' will send her to hell?

Ask her why does she think so. If she says that it's what her parents told her, you can talk to her parents about that. "bluewolf" is right.
After they explain that to you, you should decide if it's legal and not harming.
Probably it's their way of educating the child to behave well.
If you go against the parents in trivial matters (and against people in general) you will cause yourself unnecessary problems.

And what if an older person believes in Santa and does wacky stuff because of it?

If it's wacky - against the law, report to the police / social authorities.
If it's just weird and unacceptable, think if an optional confrontation with the parent worth it.
Maybe it is. But know, that if you lose the job, you lose a future influence on the child too.

mewso

crucamim wrote: »

Common sense is not very common. And that applies to members of the teachng profession.

This thread is an excellent argument for Jews having Jewish schools, Catholics having Catholic schools, Muslims having Muslim schools, secularists have secular schools etc, etc.

The OP was not fired for being an atheist. She was fired for inappropriate conduct.

Yes indeed. Keep all those anti-catholic teachers out of catholic schools. Anyone like the posters here who obviously want to corrupt catholic children. Oh wait...

strobe

crucamim wrote: »

Common sense is not very common. And that applies to members of the teachng profession.

This thread is an excellent argument for Jews having Jewish schools, Catholics having Catholic schools, Muslims having Muslim schools, secularists have secular schools etc, etc.

No it's not an excellent argument for anything other than au-pairs deferring to parents when they are unsure of something involving the children.

You Crucamin, are just an unapologetic bigot of the worst possible kind. Now a Mod may call me up on that for being personal abuse but I'd contend that if I can show you being clearly bigoted, which would be simple, considering your posts in politics, AH and elsewhere, then it is merely a statement of fact.

The world would be a better place if people like you were removed from it.

mewso

strobe wrote: »

The world would be a better place if people like you were removed from it.

Ah now steady on. Plenty of uses for brick walls.

tallaghtmick

^^^^just noticed mewso is an unreal mod:pac: ok ok back to topic....theres no santa claus:(

recedite

Sefirah wrote: »

I just have found that since I got here, people are so hopelessly brainwashed, and now I see this kid going down the exact same road, and it's depressing

Things have sure changed since January when you were all newly jewed up and loved all things Israeli including the IDF.......

Sefirah wrote:

My situation is that I'm converting to Judaism....

You'd be really surprised- for the 'Holy Land' I found it to be very secular, and the vast majority of Israelis are 'hilonim' and don't practice religion at all. I'd say about 95% if my Israeli friends fell into this category.........

Obviously not every single person will be shomer shabbat and keep kosher, but why can't they be allowed the opportunity to do so? Especially as a convert, I intend to keep all of the following, and this is made extremely difficult in Ireland....

not that there's anything wrong with changing your mind as new facts come to light, I make a point of doing that all the time myself (and hopefully that little jewish kid will do the same in time)

miss no stars

I worked in the states with kids. It's a religious country and most people could be expected to be aware of that. When a kid ever asked me anything religious, I'd firstly ask them why they wanted to know. I found that was a good (yet subtle) way of making them think about the relevance of the question. Did it really matter what my personal beliefs are? If they were just curious I'd tell them that I don't follow any set of beliefs as laid down by organized religion, but I admire and respect people who have religion as part of their lives. I also talk about how I've benefitted so much from meeting people from different faiths and backgrounds and that I've learnt a lot from them. None of that is untrue and I would guess it true of most people. Then, before kiddo can dwell on it, ask about their beliefs and be very positive about them. "oh wow! That's really interesting! It seems like your faith is really important to you, you seem to know a lot about it. Do you study the bible/torrah?"

It doesn't take a lot of cop on to realize that israel is a religious place and that an American living in Israel probably wants to raise their child in Judaism. It's not your place to question or undermine this, no matter how absurd it seems to you.

Questions around children can be answered honestly while tactfully. You seem to acknowledge that you crossed a line so I won't labour that point. I would suggest that you appologise to the mother. Tell her that you were caught slightly off-guard by the question and meant no harm, but that you completely understand her position. In hindsight you realise that your comments were out of line and you wanted to offer her your unconditional apology, as you adore the daughter and wouldn't like to leave things on bad terms with them.

You might even be able to get a decent reference from her.

pH

Leaving aside the strange Catholicism -> Judaism -> Atheism thing mentioned a few posts above, I really feel that those agreeing with the mother and telling the OP she got what she deserved and next time to STFU are way out of line.

Say I posted the following:

I had a really strange experience last week, and not sure if I should be angry, or simply laugh at the whole thing. We recently got an Israeli au-pair for our 7 year old daughter. Things were going dandy, til one day my daughter told the au-pair she didn't believe in God and quizzed the au-pair about her religious beliefs. The au-pair told my daughter that she believed in God. (As a properly indoctrinated atheist) My daughter was (obviously) shocked by this. When she (eventually) managed to get over the shock (her mouth literally fell open) she started asking the au-pair about her religious beliefs, where she thought people came from and who created the world. The au-pair then explained the basics of Judaism to her, and her beliefs about creationism, the book of Genesis, Adam and Eve and Noah, being a literal account of early human history,

SO I FIRED THE BITCH.

I reckon the same posters telling the OP that she crossed a line etc. would not agree with my actions, and would be saying exactly the same things to me.

miss no stars

pH wrote: »

Leaving aside the strange Catholicism -> Judaism -> Atheism thing mentioned a few posts above, I really feel that those agreeing with the mother and telling the OP she got what she deserved and next time to STFU are way out of line.

Say I posted the following:

I had a really strange experience last week, and not sure if I should be angry, or simply laugh at the whole thing. We recently got an Israeli au-pair for our 7 year old daughter. Things were going dandy, til one day my daughter told the au-pair she didn't believe in God and quizzed the au-pair about her religious beliefs. The au-pair told my daughter that she believed in God. (As a properly indoctrinated atheist) My daughter was (obviously) shocked by this. When she (eventually) managed to get over the shock (her mouth literally fell open) she started asking the au-pair about her religious beliefs, where she thought people came from and who created the world. The au-pair then explained the basics of Judaism to her, and her beliefs about creationism, the book of Genesis, Adam and Eve and Noah, being a literal account of early human history,

SO I FIRED THE BITCH.

I reckon the same posters telling the OP that she crossed a line etc. would not agree with my actions, and would be saying exactly the same things to me.

The difference between your version and what we've been told happened is that the OP pretty much ridiculed the kid's beliefs. THAT is what's so out of line tbh. It's basically trying to undermine what the kid's mother told her and replace it with the OPs version. Or to at least actively seek to create doubt in the child's mind. And if the roles were switched around as you indicated, with the addition that the au pere tried to grill my child on what she sees as the flaws in her beliefs (or lack thereof) to try and get her to consider Judaism as an alternative to atheism (ie to try and influence her), then I would STILL think the au pere had crossed a line. I wouldn't see it as unreasonable to not want someone around the child who had actively sought to undermine what a parent has taught them. What would it be next time???

The issue isn't that the OP was honest about her beliefs, it's that she tried to pick holes in what a 7 YEAR OLD believes, which was actively intended (or at least appeared to be intended) to undermine what the child had been taught so far under the guidance of her mother. If you can't see what's so wrong about that, I hope you don't have access to other people's kids.

pH

miss no stars wrote: »

The difference between your version and what we've been told happened is that the OP pretty much ridiculed the kid's beliefs. THAT is what's so out of line tbh.

Mine is pretty much word for word the original, can you point out the ridicule in the OP which is not included in mine?

Mine includes a religious person telling a child that the child's beliefs are wrong, that God exists, and that she believes in the literal truth of Genesis.

I'm genuinely interested in were you find the ridicule in the OP that's not in mine.

robindch

miss no stars wrote: »

the OP pretty much ridiculed the kid's beliefs. THAT is what's so out of line tbh.

If it's true, then it certainly is way out of line, but I don't believe that's what happened -- I got the impression that it was done respectfully, and without trying to undermine the parents, or ridicule their beliefs.

Sefirah?

kippy

Sefirah wrote: »

I didn't mean to interfere, I just don't like the thought of lying to a kid- be it mine or someone else's

Okay, this is completely the wrong context but:
Would you lie to a kid if they asked you about Santa, The Tooth Fairy, The Boogyman etc.........
Also, I don't think you were fired for your beliefs or lack of them, specificilly.

sink

pH wrote: »

I reckon the same posters telling the OP that she crossed a line etc. would not agree with my actions, and would be saying exactly the same things to me.

She was employed by the parents in a private capacity to do a job to their specifications, she failed to do that. I may disagree with their beliefs and what they may or may not teach their child but that is not my decision to make, I can no more force them to hire someone who goes against their wishes than they can force me to hire an outspoken Zionist to look after my kids.

It's not a matter of what I think is right for their kids, it's a matter of parents prerogative.

Dades

pH wrote: »

Leaving aside the strange Catholicism -> Judaism -> Atheism thing mentioned a few posts above, I really feel that those agreeing with the mother and telling the OP she got what she deserved and next time to STFU are way out of line.

Say I posted the following:

I reckon the same posters telling the OP that she crossed a line etc. would not agree with my actions, and would be saying exactly the same things to me.

There's a difference between explaining a different belief and undermining an existing one.

The OPs discussion with the child unfortunately could be perceived to be the latter, following the Noah's ark conversation.

miss no stars

pH wrote: »

miss no stars wrote: »

The difference between your version and what we've been told happened is that the OP pretty much ridiculed the kid's beliefs. THAT is what's so out of line tbh.

Mine is pretty much word for word the original, can you point out the ridicule in the OP which is not included in mine?

Mine includes a religious person telling a child that the child's beliefs are wrong, that God exists, and that she believes in the literal truth of Genesis.

I'm genuinely interested in were you find the ridicule in the OP that's not in mine.

The OP told the kid she believed the biblical version far fetched and tried to pick holes in the story of noah's ark. That might be ok if you were dealing with a teenager who is better able to assimilate and dissect other viewpoints, but you're dealing with a young child here. Most 7 year olds look up to and want to impress the adults in their life. A response like the OP's could be quite upsetting to a kid - they could end up worrying that a person they like will go to hell and also worry that a person they look up to thinks they're stupid. Obviously the kid was upset as it was playing on her mind enough that she mentioned afterwards to the mother. The boundaries of what constitutes ridicule change when you're dealing with kids in a mentor-child type relationship. Any disagreement has to be carefully phrased so the kid doesn't feel like the person thinks that they're silly. Picking holes in what a kid believes is ridiculing their beliefs. They aren't old enough to have purely intellectual debate. They WILL take it personally.

miss no stars

Forgot to mention, the above is just dealing with how it is ridicule, never mind how out of line it is to undermine what a parent teaches a child to, in their eyes, look after a child's spiritual well being.

pH

kippy wrote: »

Okay, this is completely the wrong context but:
Would you lie to a kid if they asked you about Santa, The Tooth Fairy, The Boogyman etc.........
Also, I don't think you were fired for your beliefs or lack of them, specificilly.

So you're saying the au pair should have lied to the kid right? In the same way as the au pair doesn't believe in Santa, she'd lie to the kid and tell her Santa exists, she should also lie to the kid and tell her God exists?

Would you expect a Christian or Muslim to do the same. Has an atheist parent the right to expect a Christian/Muslim au pair to lie to the child about her (the au pair's) beliefs? I.e. if the atheist child asks the au pair about God, then the au pair must lie and tell the kid that she doesn't believe in God?

Malari

pH wrote: »

So you're saying the au pair should have lied to the kid right? In the same way as the au pair doesn't believe in Santa, she'd lie to the kid and tell her Santa exists, she should also lie to the kid and tell her God exists?

Would you expect a Christian or Muslim to do the same. Has an atheist parent the right to expect a Christian/Muslim au pair to lie to the child about her (the au pair's) beliefs? I.e. if the atheist child asks the au pair about God, then the au pair must lie and tell the kid that she doesn't believe in God?

Parents must spend half their lives lying to kids!
- there are no sweets left
- I have no more money to buy you that toy
- I'm going to eat your dinner if you don't

If the au pair was asked about sex do you think the au pair should have given the full run down about her preferences to the child? Come on!

You don't have to lie to avoid telling the truth.

kippy

pH wrote: »

So you're saying the au pair should have lied to the kid right? In the same way as the au pair doesn't believe in Santa, she'd lie to the kid and tell her Santa exists, she should also lie to the kid and tell her God exists?

Would you expect a Christian or Muslim to do the same. Has an atheist parent the right to expect a Christian/Muslim au pair to lie to the child about her (the au pair's) beliefs? I.e. if the atheist child asks the au pair about God, then the au pair must lie and tell the kid that she doesn't believe in God?

The OP believes it's not right to lie to kids, I was making the point that parents and guardians lie to kids all the time.
There were other ways to avoid answering the direct question the child asked without bring completly honest with the child and opening up some issues for the parents to address and the OP made no attempt to do this.

The post from Malari probably said it better than I could have.

pH

Malari wrote: »

Parents must spend half their lives lying to kids!
- there are no sweets left
- I have no more money to buy you that toy
- I'm going to eat your dinner if you don't

If the au pair was asked about sex do you think the au pair should have given the full run down about her preferences to the child? Come on!

You don't have to lie to avoid telling the truth.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, are you saying that you'd expect a Christian or Muslim au pair to lie about their beliefs or "avoid telling the truth" to the child that they believed in God?

Dades wrote:

There's a difference between explaining a different belief and undermining an existing one.

Surely if beliefs are contradictory, explaining one undermines the other.

I mean some posters above (and yourself?) seem to be saying that telling the child you don't believe in God is fine, but having the temerity to spend 30 seconds pointing out the obvious flaws in reading Noah's story (hardly really a foundational piece of doctrine even in Judaism) in a literal way is the problem?

Anyway, I think the juxtaposition of this thread (5 minutes of 1 child hearing an opposing view), parents rights etc = au paired Fired versus threads about children getting state sponsored religious indoctrination every school day for 14 years of their lives is quite surreal.

mikemac

seamus wrote: »

Never mix business with religion or politics. It will not end well.

I've read the thread but this is what I wanted to say

Nothing good comes from it.

Sefirah wrote: »

Possibly a good idea....!! Luckily I didn't like the job anyway, so perhaps it turned out for the best- I was working 6am-8pm 5 days a week for the equivalent of 60 euros.

A Jew tight with money? :eek:

kippy

pH wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're saying here, are you saying that you'd expect a Christian or Muslim au pair to lie about their beliefs or "avoid telling the truth" to the child that they believed in God?



Surely if beliefs are contradictory, explaining one undermines the other.

I mean some posters above (and yourself?) seem to be saying that telling the child you don't believe in God is fine, but having the temerity to spend 30 seconds pointing out the obvious flaws in reading Noah's story (hardly really a foundational piece of doctrine even in Judaism) in a literal way is the problem?

Anyway, I think the juxtaposition of this thread (5 minutes of 1 child hearing an opposing view), parents rights etc = au paired Fired versus threads about children getting state sponsored religious indoctrination every school day for 14 years of their lives is quite surreal.

I think you need to step back for a second and take off the glasses of your religion or lack thereof.
As a parent, I would like whoever looks after my child to maintain the status quo - it is not their place to make extra work for me and if the attitude of the person looking after my child is "Children shouldnt be told lies", I'd be fairly worried about them and how they would "manage" my child.

The simple fact of the matter is, the OP could have sidestepped the questions very easily, but chose not to.

Malari

pH wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're saying here, are you saying that you'd expect a Christian or Muslim au pair to lie about their beliefs or "avoid telling the truth" to the child that they believed in God?

I'd expect a person of any religion or none to respect the views of the child's parents when I was specifically charged to be a guardian for that child. Sure you can accept that saying something along the lines of "god is a personal thing to everyone and sometimes people don't want to talk about it."

pH wrote: »

Surely if beliefs are contradictory, explaining one undermines the other.

Certainly not. You can remain agnostic on the position. :cool:

pH wrote: »

I mean some posters above (and yourself?) seem to be saying that telling the child you don't believe in God is fine, but having the temerity to spend 30 seconds pointing out the obvious flaws in reading Noah's story (hardly really a foundational piece of doctrine even in Judaism) in a literal way is the problem?

Yes it is. I'm surprised you don't see the difference. What if the child asked something about the parents and if you were friends or if you liked them? You gonna be honest with that too, or are you going to make a politically prudent decision to decline to answer, while giving the impression you have actually answered.

pH wrote: »

Anyway, I think the juxtaposition of this thread (5 minutes of 1 child hearing an opposing view), parents rights etc = au paired Fired versus threads about children getting state sponsored religious indoctrination every school day for 14 years of their lives is quite surreal.

Look, I actually think being fired for this is a little extreme. I don't believe there is an au pair in history who had to be taken aside and told "actually, we'd prefer you don't do X, Y, Z with our child." It's the parent's perogative, however, as with state sponsored religious eductaion in school. People who want Catholic control eased in schools are not about to suggest they can affect what happens to the child's indoctrination in the hands of their parents outside of school.

Oh, and I say all the above despite NOT being a parent and never wanting kids.

ShooterSF

The sad thing in all this is that society has still not made progress towards the idea that indoctrinating your child as a parent is not good parenting. I don't mean raising the kid as jewish but seemingly shielding it from the real world and it's many other beliefs in an effort to bias it's already vulnerable decision making.

I don't think any legal ramifications could (or should) ever be created but if I was in the OP's position I would see it as the mental version of smoking around your kid or feeding them nothing but fast food and would have quit before my lip started to bleed from my teeth diggin into it. If not I would have given the parent a good earful (away from the child).

I say that while still agreeing that the OP did make a mistake in handling the situation.