Fired for being Atheist (?)

Sefirah

I had a really strange experience last week, and not sure if I should be angry, or simply laugh at the whole thing. I'm living in Israel, and recently got a job as an au-pair for an American single mom who recently moved here with her 7 year old daughter. Things were going dandy, til one day the daughter started spouting all kinds of nonsense about Noah's ark and drawing pictures etc. She started quizzing me about my religious beliefs, and I said that I didn't believe in God. When she (eventually) managed to get over the shock (her mouth literally fell open) she started asking me why and where I thought people came from and who created the world. I told her that I believed in the scientific explanation- the big bang, evolution etc, and felt that the biblical account was a little far fetched. I took the story of Noah's ark story as an example and asked her- What do you think the meat-eating animals ate while on the ark if there was only two of every animal? She gave me a pissed off look and started saying something about picking fish out of the sea, but then got distracted by the tv and that was the end of that. Or so I thought.

The next day, I got a text message from her mother saying that I "made comments to her daughter which were grossly inappropriate and completely unacceptable" and that she "didn't feel this was a good fit for a working relationship". I'm just baffled- is it that she's afraid that I would interfere with the indoctrination or her child, or allow her to see things from a different perspective? In hindsight, perhaps it wasn't my place to discuss these things to begin with with someone else's child?

Confusement...!!

Rev Hellfire

Sefirah wrote: »

In hindsight, perhaps it wasn't my place to discuss these things to begin with with someone else's child?

You think :rolleyes:

MrStuffins

Sounds like it was YOU indoctrinating a 7 year old child when you should've been playing Hungry Hungry Hippos!

MrPudding

Whilst I probably agree with most of what you said, I also think it was probably inappropriate for you to tell the child these things.

We, and that is people in general, need to be careful about how we speak to other people's children. That said, this is a very difficult area and it is hard to know what to say. I think it is best to err on the side of caution and try not to say anything too far from what the kid "believes". This is hard, as it will likely mean intentionally lying to them. Bi it seems that most parents would prefer people lying to their children than telling them something outside their worldview.

MrP

Sefirah

I didn't mean to interfere, I just don't like the thought of lying to a kid- be it mine or someone else's

Sefirah

MrStuffins wrote: »

Sounds like it was YOU indoctrinating a 7 year old child when you should've been playing Hungry Hungry Hippos!

I wasn't indoctrinating her, I was simply asking her a question and answering the ones she put to me- what she chooses to do with the answers was up to her

stargazer 68

Sefirah wrote: »

I didn't mean to interfere, I just don't like the thought of lying to a kid- be it mine or someone else's

Lying in your opinion - not hers! You werent fired for being an atheist you were fired for overstepping the mark.

MrStuffins

Sefirah wrote: »

I wasn't indoctrinating her, I was simply asking her a question and answering the ones she put to me- what she chooses to do with the answers was up to her

Perhaps, but she's a 7 year old child. Just because she asked doesn't mean you should tell her.

"Excuse me, but when my daughter asks 'Where do babies come from?' could you refrain from drawing diagrams?"

MrPudding

Sefirah wrote: »

I wasn't indoctrinating her, I was simply asking her a question and answering the ones she put to me- what she chooses to do with the answers was up to her

She is 7. She doesn't choose what to do with information.

MrP

Sefirah

Dovies wrote: »

Lying in your opinion - not hers! You werent fired for being an atheist you were fired for overstepping the mark.

What if I said I was Jewish, and believed in all their philsophies? Had I spoken about this- no bother. It's the fact that what I believe wasn't in line with theirs which was the issue

Sefirah

MrPudding wrote: »

She is 7. She doesn't choose what to do with information.

MrP

But surely she should be given the option to hear differing opinions? It feels like living in a bubble here sometimes- especially with new immigrants- they create their own little Jewish world, and anything outside of that is simply not acceptable

seamus

I can see how it would seem reasonable at the time to innocently answer the child's questions, but for a start you're in Israel, and speaking with the child is quite simply, a part of your job.

Never mix business with religion or politics. It will not end well.

The next time a child asks what your beliefs are, educate the child that is not an appropriate question to ask, as everyone's beliefs are private and personal.

My suspicion here is that even if you said, "I don't believe in God", and didn't discuss it any further, the mother would probably still have let you go out of fear that you might eat her baby. The child probably came to the mother with simple questions about the religion and rather than answer those questions, she fires you for daring to stir up questions in her brain.

3DataModem

No it was the fact that you were compromising their parenting that got you fired.

If you told her Santa wasn't real would you expect to be fired?

Bloody Nipples

It's the equivalent of telling the kid Santa doesn't exist. It's the truth, but you can't say it to someone else's kid.

Sefirah

seamus wrote: »

The next time a child asks what your beliefs are, educate the child that is not an appropriate question to ask, as everyone's beliefs are private and personal.

Possibly a good idea....!! Luckily I didn't like the job anyway, so perhaps it turned out for the best- I was working 6am-8pm 5 days a week for the equivalent of 60 euros.

Sefirah

3DataModem wrote: »

No it was the fact that you were compromising their parenting that got you fired.

If you told her Santa wasn't real would you expect to be fired?

It's Israel- if she doesn't know Santa's not real, we have a problem lol. But I see your point- I just have found that since I got here, people are so hopelessly brainwashed, and now I see this kid going down the exact same road, and it's depressing

MrStuffins

Sefirah wrote: »

But surely she should be given the option to hear differing opinions? It feels like living in a bubble here sometimes- especially with new immigrants- they create their own little Jewish world, and anything outside of that is simply not acceptable

If I had a 7 year old and the Au Pair started trying to fill her head with her own religious agenda, you can be damned sure i wouldnt be happy!

Sefirah

MrStuffins wrote: »

If I had a 7 year old and the Au Pair started trying to fill her head with her own religious agenda, you can be damned sure i wouldnt be happy!

But I'm not filling her head- I'm just telling her my point of view. The same way if I had been a Christian, I would say what I believed

MrStuffins

Sefirah wrote: »

But I'm not filling her head- I'm just telling her my point of view. The same way if I had been a Christian, I would say what I believed

But it's a 7 year old girl. It's not your place to tell the girl this stuff. it's your place to play Buckaroo!

Sefirah

MrStuffins wrote: »

But it's a 7 year old girl. It's not your place to tell the girl this stuff. it's your place to play Buckaroo!

Really wished these games were actually available here - maybe we wouldn't have wandered on to the topic of religion then!

Rev Hellfire

Sefirah wrote: »

But I'm not filling her head- I'm just telling her my point of view. The same way if I had been a Christian, I would say what I believed

The point though is that even if you had been a christian and the mother a staunch atheist, it wouldn't have been your place to go against the teachings the parents had selected for her.

fatmammycat

You were totally out of line. My best friend is quite religious and her daughter recently made her HC and was filled with religious waffle, all of which I smiled at and nodded and said 'oh really?' to. You had no right to undermine the mother or daughter's religious belief in this case.

Sefirah

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The point though is that even if you had been a christian and the mother a staunch atheist, it wouldn't have been your place to go against the teachings the parents had selected for her.

What I wonder is- is there an 'acceptable' level of discussion on this- as in, if she asked me what I believed, could I still say that I believed in no God, and leave it at that, or should the entire topic be avoided altogether?

When a child asks what santa is bringing me for christmas I don't sit there and tell them there is no santa

It was seriously not your place to be telling these things to the child, I think it would have been best if you'd changed the subject entirely somehow

Dades

A bunch of off-topic posts have been deleted.
deravarra - this isn't the place for what you started. You have been warned.

smcgiff

Nah, you clearly over stepped the mark. You have a care of duty to the parents and child.

I suspect you knew it wasn't right to try to argue your religious beliefs with a child. I agree with the parent.

Sefirah

Lesson learned...!
Thanks for your input guys! Next time I'll distract them with something shiny and move on!

tallaghtmick

wow an american jewish woman in israel over reacts to an au pair she under pays.....must......not......stereotype

Rev Hellfire

Sefirah wrote: »

What I wonder is- is there an 'acceptable' level of discussion on this- as in, if she asked me what I believed, could I still say that I believed in no God, and leave it at that, or should the entire topic be avoided altogether?

I think if the topic is in anyway contentious and you are unaware of the parents feelings it is best avoided.

deman

Sefirah wrote: »

I'm just baffled

How can you be baffled? What you did was totally irresponsible. Whether or not your points are valid is not up for discussion. Your opinions mean nothing. How dare you try to confuse a young child that people trusted you to look after.

How about we retitle the thread "Fired for mentally abusing a child!"

Sefirah

tallaghtmick wrote: »

wow an american jewish woman in israel over reacts to an au pair she under pays.....must......not......stereotype

Yeah, on a side note- the pay situation was ridiculous, and not only was the stated pay crap, but she'd only give me a fraction of it before making up some excuse about problems with ATMs and whatnot. And she never left any food in the house for her kid, so I'd have to drag her daughter out of bed to go to the shop in the morning to buy something to eat for breakfast- with my own money, of course :S

Sefirah

deman wrote: »

How can you be baffled? What you did was totally irresponsible. Whether or not your points are valid is not up for discussion. Your opinions mean nothing. How dare you try to confuse a young child that people trusted you to look after.

How about we retitle the thread "Fired for mentally abusing a child!"

Jaysus, talk about an over-reaction :S I've already admitted that it was a lesson learned, but I by no means 'mentally abused' the kid

tallaghtmick

Sefirah wrote: »

Yeah, on a side note- the pay situation was ridiculous, and not only was the stated pay crap, but she'd only give me a fraction of it before making up some excuse about problems with ATMs and whatnot. And she never left any food in the house for her kid, so I'd have to drag her daughter out of bed to go to the shop in the morning to buy something to eat for breakfast- with my own money, of course :S

get your ass back to ireland and claim the dole;)

anyway if i was in your shoes id have told the kid im god and to kill all jews in my name.....and quickly do a legger back home

deman

Sefirah wrote: »

Jaysus, talk about an over-reaction :S I've already admitted that it was a lesson learned, but I by no means 'mentally abused' the kid

So do you honestly believe that you were fired on the sole basis that you are an atheist?

Sefirah

Had I been a Jew, things would be very different. That said, I do understand that I went over the line. However, I still feel your view that I 'abused' the child is rather hysterical

magicbastarder

Sefirah wrote: »

What if I said I was Jewish, and believed in all their philsophies? Had I spoken about this- no bother. It's the fact that what I believe wasn't in line with theirs which was the issue

in future, change the subject.
the notion that you mentally abused the child did give me a chuckle, though.

The Israeli

Well, as I see it (shh, listen):
I think that there is more into it besides the story of sefirah, but if answering only on what was told, I think that they both were wrong.

The mother was clearly got drifted by her anger, as she seems like a very religious person who's concerned about her daughter's "right" education.

Did you notice how religious they were before that conversation with the child?
If yes, you shouldn't have expressed your own believes, because it's not your place.

There are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. Crossing these boundaries puts the religious parent under a heavy stress due to the important role of religion in their lives, and the knowledge that someone close sabotaging their efforts.

If this was the only reason for firing you, then your are better off without her, for the sake of both of you. She sounds like an explosive person.

btw, It's not too bad not to work during a vacation, especially when you can earn much more back at home.

Sefirah

The Israeli wrote: »

Well, as I see it (shh, listen):
I think that there is more into it besides the story of sefirah, but if answering only on what was told, I think that they both were wrong.

The mother was clearly got drifted by her anger, as she seems like a very religious person who's concerned about her daughter's "right" education.

Did you notice how religious they were before that conversation with the child?
If yes, you shouldn't have expressed your own believes, because it's not your place.

There are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. Crossing these boundaries puts the religious parent under a heavy stress due to the important role of religion in their lives, and the knowledge that someone close sabotaging their efforts.

If this was the only reason for firing you, then your are better off without her, for the sake of both of you. She sounds like an explosive person.

btw, It's not too bad not to work during a vacation, especially when you can earn much more back at home.

Thing is, they're not 'religious' - just idealistic. They don't keep kosher, attend the synagogue, keep shabbat or anything and the mother is a reform Judaism convert (so really, she shouldn't literally believe in such things as Noah's ark to begin with). And yeah, the job was no dream to begin with- the pay situation, her not leaving food for the kid- it was just depressing. And true, maybe I'm better off just getting a job back home (although I don't have a clue how I'll do it- there doesn't seem to be anything there). Apart from the money issue, I just like having something to do with my days here. I'm leaving next September, so it's a long stint

The Israeli

I must say that the girl seems pretty clever to me - to come up with an answer like that at her age. heh. I guess that most of the children at her age would just shrug their shoulders.

Basing only on your side and without hearing their side, and knowing how sensible they are about the subject, I understand that religion was not a concern in that house, therefore you didn't say anything wrong.

But nobody would know. In the future, try to avoid subjects that might arise problems. Refer to the current event as a learning experience.

Sefirah

Indeed. She also told me that she believes in fairies- perhaps I should have worked on that one instead Thanks for the advice!

robindch

Sefirah wrote: »

I wasn't indoctrinating her, I was simply asking her a question and answering the ones she put to me

As long as you said that this was your belief, rather than saying that it was a matter of fact, then -- while the mum's reaction was over the top -- I don't really see too much of a problem with it. Though I would avoid conversations like this as much as possible, particularly in places where religion is a major social problem.

If you'd said outright that the kid's views were wrong and stated your position as if it was fact, or clearly implied that the mum's position was baloney, then that certainly would have been inappropriate in the context.

Was on the receiving end of this last weekend when an elderly relative decided to discuss nothing but religion with my kid. A respectful request to avoid the topic produced an unhinged fifteen-minute rant on the theme of "You're intolerant, arrogant and narrow-minded and you will not deny me my identity!"

Sefirah

robindch wrote: »

As long as you said that this was your belief, rather than saying that it was a matter of fact, then -- while the mum's reaction was over the top -- I don't really see too much of a problem with it. Though I would avoid conversations like this as much as possible, particularly in places where religion is a major social problem.

If you'd said outright that the kid's views were wrong and stated your position as if it was fact, or clearly implied that the mum's position was baloney, then that certainly would have been inappropriate in the context.

Was on the receiving end of this last weekend when an elderly relative decided to discuss nothing but religion with my kid. A respectful request to avoid the topic produced an unhinged fifteen-minute rant on the theme of "You're intolerant, arrogant and narrow-minded and you will not deny me my identity!"

I didn't state it as fact, it was more like "this is what I believe in"- I said at the end something to the effect of lots of people having many different ideas on the subject, but it's true that it's a whole lot easier to just say nothing altogether- especially since kids tend to blurt out the most awkward stuff at very inconvenient times...! Like I was chatting to her about my boyfriend who moved to Israel at the same age alone with his mom, and said that he now lives with his mom, brother and sister- then her mom came home and she told her "Hey, mom! <my name> said that you're going to make me brothers and sisters now that we're here!" Gaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Lol- oldies can be tough to reason with. Or anyone who makes religion a part of their fundamental identity, come to that

robindch

Sefirah wrote: »

I didn't state it as fact, it was more like "this is what I believe in"- I said at the end something to the effect of lots of people having many different ideas on the subject [...]

Well, if the kid asks you a question, it's not unreasonable to answer it. At least briefly and avoiding dwelling on the topic if it's a controversial one.

Did the mum explicitly ask you not to discuss religion or science?

ShooterSF

I think it was fair for you to answer her question. I can't believe anyone would want to hide a view from their child.
Where you crossed the line was pointing out how ludicrous Noah's ark is. Best not to pick apart a child's parent's religion with the child.

Just as an aside is there anyone that thinks the OP would still have been in the wrong simply answering the child's question?

The Israeli

ShooterSF wrote: »

Just as an aside is there anyone that thinks the OP would still have been in the wrong simply answering the child's question?

It's a matter of who you are dealing with. In this case it was a child of the age of 7 with strong religious believes.
It was not wrong answering to the child about the op's own believes (though it was smarter to avoid it in the first place), but it was wrong crashing the child's believes.
If she was talking to a grown up child which wasn't under her supervision, there wouldn't have been any problem at all.

The issue here is not religion, but it is boundaries between people.
In the average case, this alone wouldn't case to firing.

ShooterSF

The Israeli wrote: »

It's a matter of who you are dealing with. In this case it was a child of the age of 7 with strong religious believes.
It was not wrong answering to the child about the op's own believes (though it was smarter to avoid it in the first place), but it was wrong crashing the child's believes.
If she was talking to a grown up child which wasn't under her supervision, there wouldn't have been any problem at all.

The issue here is not religion at all, but boundaries between people.
In the average case, this alone wouldn't case to firing.

I mostly agree though I don't think it's smarter not to answer the child. If I had a child they would by 7 know about as many beliefs as I could tell them about not just my own. The only reason for the OP to hide their belief is if the parent is warping the child's mind about atheists.
Also saying "a child of 7 with strong religious beliefs" should be accompanied by a strong shudder especially if the parents are determined to shield the child from information about other beliefs. Indoctrination at it's finest.

The Israeli

ShooterSF wrote: »

I mostly agree though I don't think it's smarter not to answer the child. If I had a child they would by 7 know about as many beliefs as I could tell them about not just my own. The only reason for the OP to hide their belief is if the parent is warping the child's mind about atheists.
Also saying "a child of 7 with strong religious beliefs" should be accompanied by a strong shudder especially if the parents are determined to shield the child from information about other beliefs. Indoctrination at it's finest.

I agree with you that there are better ways to raise a child, but OP was an au-pair, and it wasn't of her job.

nozzferrahhtoo

I am curious if those who think the OP did the wrong thing are of the opinion this is a fixed rule… in that you do not interfere with what parents wants to teach a child on any level… or whether there is a continuum…. In that do they feel there are some ideas that if discovered inside the head of a 7 year old are perfectly ok to challenge and show are wrong and / or dangerous.

If the latter then how does one move on that continuum. Where or how does one identify the line (or what criteria must be used) in a given situation to decide which way is right and which is wrong?

whydoibother?

Sefirah wrote: »

But surely she should be given the option to hear differing opinions? It feels like living in a bubble here sometimes- especially with new immigrants- they create their own little Jewish world, and anything outside of that is simply not acceptable

That's her parents decision.

sink

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am curious if those who think the OP did the wrong thing are of the opinion this is a fixed rule… in that you do not interfere with what parents wants to teach a child on any level… or whether there is a continuum…. In that do they feel there are some ideas that if discovered inside the head of a 7 year old are perfectly ok to challenge and show are wrong and / or dangerous.

If the latter then how does one move on that continuum. Where or how does one identify the line (or what criteria must be used) in a given situation to decide which way is right and which is wrong?

It depends or your role, if you are appointed as a caregiver in the case of the OP, then you should pretty much follow the letter of what the parents want, within reason. If you are just an acquaintance and you are asked a direct question by a child, then it is up to you to answer it as you please.

mikhail

It's interesting to read this thread in the light of the recent debate on religious education in schools.

It's utterly obvious from the replies here that the vast majority of atheists here (who, one might imagine are self-selected to be among the more vocal atheists) firmly believe that parents have a right to control their children's religious education.

I had already suspected as much, but it does give the lie to the oft-insisted idea that as proponents of secular education we want to interfere with that right.