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Should religion be taught in schools?

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    #512
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    dvpower wrote: »
    Because there isn't a practical choice at the moment.

    Yes, there is. Such a person should not be allowed to teach Catholic children. Just a a Nazi should not be allowed to teach Jewish children.


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    #513
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    crucamim wrote: »
    What could be wrong with that? I hope that the Catholic bishops will drive a very hard bargain before any schools owned by the Catholic church are transferred to the State or any other body. I hope that the will insist on terms at least as strong as those suggested by yourself. Catholics have a right to be Catholics. Catholics have a right to have their children educated in a Catholic environment - with no anti-Catholics in the school.

    Given that your definition of "Anti-Catholic" seems to be someone who critiques your own exact view of Catholicism I can't help but point out that that actually include Catholics as well. Constructive criticism in any organisation should be welcome, not shunned.


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    #514
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    crucamim wrote: »
    Yes, there is. Such a person should not be allowed to teach Catholic children. Just a a Nazi should not be allowed to teach Jewish children.

    Ah. They're not that bad.


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    #515
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    crucamim wrote: »
    We Catholics have a right to live without having our church described as a "vile organisation".
    crucamim wrote: »
    Catholics have a right to have their children educated in a Catholic environment - with no anti-Catholics in the school.

    Who's been dishing out new rights?


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    #516
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Knight who says Meh wrote: »
    In answer to the question, how about:
    Because the vile organisation which assumes it has the right to educate our kids and have their twisted fairy tales taught to the self same kids are refusing, as of today, to pay their compensation for the kids they beat and buggered their way through several generations of thus putting further strain upon these kids and their future kids through more punishing budget cuts and taxation.

    Just a thought.....

    What is it with boards.ie and assuming that the Roman Catholic Church is the only form of religion in the State?


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    #517
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    philologos wrote: »
    What is it with boards.ie and assuming that the Roman Catholic Church is the only form of religion in the State?

    Last time I checked you believed in almost the exact same fairy tales.:pac:


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    #518
    daveharnett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    First of all, I voted no - publicly funds should not be used to indoctrinate children. That being said, I have some bones to pick here.
    Tehachapi wrote: »
    Does this start in childhood? I went to a catholic school and was taught all the christian bullsh1t, for example - you can't tell children in 1 class "Jesus walked on water" then in the next class teach them the scientific properties of water and expect them to understand it properly.
    Have you thought about the physics of Santa? Children aren't stupid, they learn to doublethink pretty early. A little cognitive dissonance won't break their little brains.
    Tehachapi wrote: »
    Others will argue that they should be taught about all faiths like is being done for junior cert religion now, but again I find this nonsensical. If I make up a religion tomorrow, praising leprechaun ghosts- should that be taught about too? Where do you draw the line?
    If necroleprechaunism gains a billion followers (yep, there's my line), then children would do well to be aware of the basic beliefs, customs and whatnot. Necroleprechaunites are people too, and little Johnny needn't be afraid of them.


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    #519
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Last time I checked you believed in almost the exact same fairy tales.:pac:

    I couldn't care less as to whether or not you think my belief is a fairytale or not :pac:

    The repeated conflation of religion and Catholicism, or Christianity and Catholicism is quite astounding.


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    #520
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    philologos wrote: »
    I couldn't care less as to whether or not you think my belief is a fairytale or not :pac:

    The repeated conflation of religion and Catholicism, or Christianity and Catholicism is quite astounding.

    Well you don't take the fairy tales literally and I also regard Aesop's fables as fairy tales so don't take it in too negative a light.:)

    But Catholicism is the one true Christianity. :pac:
    (The rest are just false religions.)


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    #521
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    daveharnett wrote: »
    If necroleprechaunism gains a billion followers ...
    But what will the nonnecroleprechaunists do?;)


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    #522
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Well you don't take the fairy tales literally and I also regard Aesop's fables as fairy tales so don't take it in too negative a light.:)

    I clearly disagree with your assumption that my beliefs are fairy tales anyway Malty_T! As for literally, nobody takes the Bible entirely literally because if you did you would miss most of what it's trying to say. :pac:

    I could claim that your atheism was essentially a fairy tale but I won't :p

    But seriously, the sooner people leave nonsense such as FSM, fairy tales and all the rest out the closer we'll be to having a decent discussion about faith.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    But Catholicism is the one true Christianity. :pac:

    Apparently.


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    #523
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    While I agree that the fairy tale argument isn't constructive I do think its argument has some merits but are ultimately best left at the door. I've yet to see a religious person demonstrate how their stories are any different from fairy tales but alas suggesting they should is usually deemed an insult or something. Oh and as for the idea of atheism being a fairytale well atheism is only one sentence "I don't believe in God" not a story.

    Oh and I know some Christians who embrace the FSM idea because it's a brilliant counterpoint to having to teach ID shyte.


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    #524
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    philologos wrote: »
    I clearly disagree with your assumption that my beliefs are fairy tales anyway Malty_T!

    How will you prove the assumption wrong? :pac:


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    #525
    Knight who says Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 464 ✭✭Knight who says Meh


    crucamim wrote: »
    We Catholics have a right to live without having our church described as a "vile organisation". Why should any Catholic allow his children to be taught by a person who regards the Catholic Church as a "vile organisation"?

    So. You have the right to live without having your organisation which protected its child raping members being described as vile.
    You have the right to live without having your organisation which would have me pay for their crimes in tax being described as vile.
    The pro water lobby have the right to live without water being described as wet.:rolleyes:


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    #526
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    mgmt: absolute proof or disproof doesn't exist. The only way anyone atheists included can argue this is to present why they think their position is more likely. I don't really bother with people barking "Prove it" because the request is fundamentally unreasonable given the nature of the question.


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    #527
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    philologos wrote: »
    mgmt: absolute proof or disproof doesn't exist. The only way anyone atheists included can argue this is to present why they think their position is more likely. I don't really bother with people barking "Prove it" because the request is fundamentally unreasonable given the nature of the question.

    It is a reasonable question though. A student moves from a science class into a religion class. They go from a subject of proofs and experiments to back up claims to a subject that relies on faith. It just dosn't make sense.


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    #528
    Downlinz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    How gullible do you think children are exactly? They teach kids not to drink, swear or smoke too and very few will. They'll all try it nonetheless.

    I'd say far more of peoples religious backgrounds come from the parents and community they're raised in. I didn't bat an eyelid because we had a religion class, I just dozed off because it didn't interest me. Having parents who go to mass every week, a community built around mass being a significant part of the week and being in a society that marks every significant part of life with a religious cermonary those are the kind of things that made me feel like religion must be important


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    #529
    flutterflye
    Registered Users Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    Just thinking there.

    I want the catholic church the fcuk out of Irish schools as much as everyone else.

    But if the state takes control of them all, or at least 50% as was proposed, what does that mean for our economy? (If anything)


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    #530
    Knight who says Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 464 ✭✭Knight who says Meh


    philologos wrote: »
    What is it with boards.ie and assuming that the Roman Catholic Church is the only form of religion in the State?

    Perhaps Im just slightly more concerned with the one which is allowed run the majority of the nations schools without actually paying for them whilst systematically buggering its way through the users of the schools.
    When this applies to scientology and the Hari Chrisnas I'll adjust my focus


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    #531
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    mgmt: Given the nature of the question, it isn't really. God is ultimately unverifiable. The best we can do is the following:
    If you are an theist of any form: Why do you believe it is more likely than not that God exists?
    If you are an atheist of any form: Why do you think it is less likely that God exists?

    Anything else is really impossible.


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    #532
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    mgmt wrote: »
    It is a reasonable question though. A student moves from a science class into a religion class. They go from a subject of proofs and experiments to back up claims to a subject that relies on faith. It just dosn't make sense.
    There is no such thing as absolute proof in science. Only evidence.

    As an aside, this year I had a religion class scheduled before a Chemistry class. I got an A1 in my Chemistry mock and I'm pretty sure I managed the same in the actual exam. Perhaps I'm just immune to confusion or something...


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    #533
    Knight who says Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 464 ✭✭Knight who says Meh


    flutterflye wrote: »
    Just thinking there.

    I want the catholic church the fcuk out of Irish schools as much as everyone else.

    But if the state takes control of them all, or at least 50% as was proposed, what does that mean for our economy? (If anything)

    Not a lot really as the state still pays for the schools. If we can just get the vile gits to pay for what they did, which seems unlikely, we could save a fortune. But with the Catholic Church apologists which abound around these here parts they will get away with it.


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    #534
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I see the assumption that science somehow is the only legitimate means of enquiry has seeped into the thread.


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    #535
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    philologos wrote: »
    mgmt: Given the nature of the question, it isn't really. God is ultimately unverifiable. The best we can do is the following:
    If you are an theist of any form: Why do you believe it is more likely than not that God exists?
    If you are an atheist of any form: Why do you think it is less likely that God exists?

    Anything else is really impossible.

    That is quite simply pathetic.

    Also, what other means of inquiry do you purpose that might be superior to skepticism?


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    #536
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,968 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Downlinz wrote: »
    How gullible do you think children are exactly? They teach kids not to drink, swear or smoke too and very few will. They'll all try it nonetheless.
    Depends on the age of the kid and the message. If you read a report like this one about Sunday Schools in the USA, you'll see that the people running the schools were very aware of what they were doing. They tailored their religious messages to kids at different ages and levels of impressionability, and I have no reason to believe it's any less sophisticated today.

    You have very young kids hitting seven (the "age of reason" they called it), so you had to get them before that using emotional tactics. You couldn't argue them in to belief, you had to make it "safe" and "friendly". ("Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so" ...)

    Then there's a different form of impressionability in teenagers, the kind that makes smoking and drinking look attractive - so Sunday School designers learned to tap in to that e.g. making a "big boys" Bible study class that appealed to the adult in them. Peer pressure, reverse psychology, you name it - if there's a trick that can be played on a young person, it's been used to push religion on to them shamelessly. Get 'em while they're young, is the message.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #537
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    There is no such thing as absolute proof in science. Only evidence.

    As an aside, this year I had a religion class scheduled before a Chemistry class. I got an A1 in my mock and I'm pretty sure I managed the same in the actual exam. Perhaps I'm just immune to confusion or something...

    Fantastic! An A1 in religion!! Now what use is that to anyone? Especially to the taxpayer who funded your education.


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    #538
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    mgmt wrote: »
    Fantastic! An A1 in religion!! Now what use is that to anyone? Especially to the taxpayer who funded your education.
    Chemistry actually... I didn't do LC Religion.


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    #539
    Knight who says Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 464 ✭✭Knight who says Meh


    mgmt wrote: »
    Fantastic! An A1 in religion!! Now what use is that to anyone? Especially to the taxpayer who funded your education.

    Creative writing?
    Fantasy Fiction?


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    #540
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    mgmt wrote: »
    Fantastic! An A1 in religion!! Now what use is that to anyone? Especially to the taxpayer who funded your education.

    uhh I think s/he meant Chemistry.
    (Nothing personal party but I hope you're a she for demographic and science uptake reasons.)


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    #541
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Malty_T wrote: »
    uhh I think s/he meant Chemistry.
    (Nothing personal party but I hope you're a she for demographic and science uptake reasons.)
    You'd be right. I'm a he btw...

    As a matter of fact, more females do Chemistry and Biology than than do males. Slightly more males get A1s in both subjects but not by any huge margin.

    http://www.examinations.ie/statistics/statistics_2010/gender_ard_2010_excluding_less_than_10.pdf


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