Who Else Finds Patriotism Pathetic?

ColeTrain · 05-07-2011 03:55PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

Take a trip up to the Player's Lounge for an evening with The Druids and take a look around you. You know what I'm talking about.

Listing a pub in Dublin really proves your point brilliantly. A lot of Celtic fans are Republican minded but the club is open to all and has fans from different backgrounds.

Why mention Celtic at all?

mcmoustache wrote: »

Why did we change ours then? You think "A Soldier's Song" existed since the beginning of time? Anthems change all the time. You just haven't been around long enough to witness it.

No, I never said it existed since the beginning of time. Thankfully it won't be changed.

Gnobe wrote: »

Patrioitism's no more than a crappy man made concept, just like religion. Other animals/species don't know when they're on Ireland or England, it's merely an artificial creation created by the human race.

Why not have a one world government, or larger regions like an EU superstate? It would certainly eliminate patriotism.

You can't be serious ?

dsmythy · 05-07-2011 03:55PM

Gnobe wrote: »

Patrioitism's no more than a crappy man made concept, just like religion. Other animals/species don't know when they're on Ireland or England, it's merely an artificial creation created by the human race.

Why not have a one world government, or larger regions like an EU superstate? It would certainly eliminate patriotism.

It would alright. A few bullets in the head from a superstate will sort out Patriotism.

Fratton Fred · 05-07-2011 03:59PM

Rothmans wrote: »

Well then aren't you lucky that there are people who have fought and died for your country and your freedom.

Freedom from what?

Are you implying the OP would have less freedom today if those people had not died?

Fratton Fred · 05-07-2011 04:03PM

Patriotism isn't pathetic, there is nothing wrong with loving your country.

What is wrong is denying someone else's right to love their country.

Calling someone else's country **** does not make your's better.

listermint · 05-07-2011 04:04PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Freedom from what?

Are you implying the OP would have less freedom today if those people had not died?

Frankly yes, And whos talking about Ireland. Lets use World War II for example. forget Irish nationality and lets say 'Nations' .

Everyone would be under german rule with the crazed geographical greed of one deranged ruler, if not for young men and women laying down their lives for others. Too many posters going around with Rose tinted glasses. Its all great when we can sit back in our free country with our lazyboy on our laptop.

Most here im sure would have a different attitude if they were born into poverty in some down trodden hell hole.

mcmoustache · 05-07-2011 04:06PM

Gnobe wrote: »

Patrioitism's no more than a crappy man made concept, just like religion. Other animals/species don't know when they're on Ireland or England, it's merely an artificial creation created by the human race.

Why not have a one world government, or larger regions like an EU superstate? It would certainly eliminate patriotism.

That's a bit like saying that having one giant county would get rid of county supporters. I don't think that would be the case. For example, people have loyalties which resemble patriotism towards their schools, parishes, towns, counties, provinces and even coastal direction. This sort of patriotic emotion exists on lots of levels.

There's the example of a female scientist. Among other people, she is a scientist. Among scientists, she is a female. In my case, to a south american, I'm a european. To a european, I'm an Irishman. To an Irishman, I'm a Galway man. To a Galway man, I'm a Connemara Gaeilgeoir and so on. We have all these identities and as I said, they are quite arbitrary. No matter how you define states, people are always going to have these mixed identities.

Nation states tend to do a better job of instilling patriotic fervour through control of the educational system and often the media. The EU or a world government would need to have their own anthem, sports teams, sports opposition, educational system and media if they wanted to remove nationalistic patriotism. I still don't think that it would work though.

Rothmans · 05-07-2011 04:08PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Freedom from what?

Are you implying the OP would have less freedom today if those people had not died?

Yes, if nobody strives for freedom, it won't just happen. All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing . . . .

Bloody Nipples · 05-07-2011 04:08PM

The issue in Ireland is that there's patriotism and there's republicanism and part of the problem is that republicans don't view people as patriots unless they are also republicans.

In the US people manage to be enthusiastically patriotic to a nation that was established in 1776, why shouldn't I be patriotic to a nation established in 1921 (or 1948 if you want to get technical). I'm not too pushed about NI, the majority of it's population want to be separate and as that has no effect on me, I'm perfectly fine with it.

So, I love Ireland. I think we've a beautiful country, I think the Irish people are some of the greatest smart-alecs on Earth, we've a rich, interesting cultural history, great sportsmen and women and as an Irishman, I can't even conceptualize being from elsewhere.

I hate hearing shíte spoken about the country on the basis of the current recession and the politicos that caused it. The country is so much more than that.

SharpshooterTom · 05-07-2011 04:14PM

ColeTrain wrote: »

You can't be serious ?

Of course....I reiterate my point, the concept of nation states is no more than an artificial human creation to justify pointless tribalism, I find as I go abroad that we as humans have more in common than we think we do and we should acknowledge that, rather than focus on the differences.

Rothmans · 05-07-2011 04:17PM

Gnobe wrote: »

Of course....I reiterate my point, the concept of nation states is no more than an artificial human creation to justify pointless tribalism, I find as I go abroad that we as humans have more in common than we think we do and we should acknowledge that, rather than focus on the differences.

You do realise that wild animals have territories too, and they fight and kill each other over their territory. So your argument,I'm afraid, is bull.

EuropeanSon · 05-07-2011 04:18PM

listermint wrote: »

Frankly yes, And whos talking about Ireland. Lets use World War II for example. forget Irish nationality and lets say 'Nations' .

Everyone would be under german rule with the crazed geographical greed of one deranged ruler, if not for young men and women laying down their lives for others. Too many posters going around with Rose tinted glasses. Its all great when we can sit back in our free country with our lazyboy on our laptop.

Most here im sure would have a different attitude if they were born into poverty in some down trodden hell hole.

Exactly. Not for their country, but for other people and the freedom and rights of other people. Nothing to do with patriotism, at least not necessarily.

Loving rights, loving other people, caring about making the world a better place is fine. Patriotism, on the other hand, is what the Fascists were motivated by (or used to motivate their populations) in that war you mentioned.

SharpshooterTom · 05-07-2011 04:21PM

Rothmans wrote: »

You do realise that wild animals have territories too, and they fight and kill each other over their territory. So your argument,I'm afraid, is bull.

I acknowledge that it's part of human nature, but that doesn't make it right.

Racism, stealing and commiting murder too are all part of human nature, doesn't make that right either??

Rothmans · 05-07-2011 04:22PM

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Exactly. Not for their country, but for other people and the freedom and rights of other people. Nothing to do with patriotism, at least not necessarily.

Loving rights, loving other people, caring about making the world a better place is fine. Patriotism, on the other hand, is what the Fascists were motivated by (or used to motivate their populations) in that war you mentioned.

But patriotism is the love of your nation, not necesarrily the physical soil of the country.
Btw a nation is defined as ''A large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory'', so patriotism does encompass standing up for other peoples' rights.

TwoShedsJackson · 05-07-2011 04:23PM

listermint wrote: »

Until the oil runs out and greed has been banished from the Human pyshicy there will be need for people to lay their lives down for others.

The human what now?

Rothmans · 05-07-2011 04:24PM

Gnobe wrote: »

I acknowledge that it's part of human nature, but that doesn't make it right.

Racism, stealing and commiting murder too are all part of human nature, doesn't make that right either??

Nature is nature. Animals kill other animals. Big animals kill smaller animals. Thats just the way it is. If you can't accept that then I see no point in debating this with you.
This seems a bit OT to me though anyway.

Da Shins Kelly · 05-07-2011 04:24PM

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country's culture or history. Patriotism can be taken too far, but I don't think it's right to claim that all patriots are idiots, or whatever. Playing GAA, doing Irish dancing, studying Irish literature, history or language can all be considered forms of patriotism. I've no problem with that. I'll stand for the national anthem (what exactly is the harm in that?), I'll speak Irish, I'll watch hurling, I'll read James Joyce, and I'm proud of it. So what? If my country came under siege tomorrow, I'd do anything I could to help stop it. Patriotism is not the belief that your country is best because you were born in it, it's just the belief that your people (your ancestors and children) were and are capable of great things and deserve the best. What's wrong with that?

On a side note, I love seeing people quoting "intellectuals", as if that somehow makes their points more valid.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-07-2011 04:26PM

ColeTrain wrote: »

It's not the same thing at all. Even the most hardened patriot doesn't put their faith in a country.

Possibly not faith par se, but my point is unquestioning loyalty through an accident of birth. It#s like sayign being born a catholic means you should always be rpoud to be a catholic.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Useless conjecture is useless.

We are where we are, going forward, at the end of the day.

People don't so much fight and die for their country as they do to remove an oppressive administration from their geographic region.

Patriotism can be used for a good reason (unite people under a common goal to remove an distasteful or oppressive regime).

Misplaced 'patriotism' can also be used to oppress a population (Turning private debts into national ones) 'Ireland' is in debt to the tune of bla bla bla.

I like being Irish and I like my fellow Irishmen (and women, easy now).
What does that mean?

Fucked if I know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Usless conjecture is not useless when taken in contact. Wolfe Tone (the poster) brought up the point of freedom from the British, I asked what the diffrence would be and put forward the idea that there would be little difference to everyday freedoms.

And yes - how do you get the smiley face thing in the middle??!

listermint wrote: »

Frankly yes, And whos talking about Ireland. Lets use World War II for example. forget Irish nationality and lets say 'Nations' .

Everyone would be under german rule with the crazed geographical greed of one deranged ruler, if not for young men and women laying down their lives for others. Too many posters going around with Rose tinted glasses. Its all great when we can sit back in our free country with our lazyboy on our laptop.

Most here im sure would have a different attitude if they were born into poverty in some down trodden hell hole.

If I remember correctly, it ws a patriot who started that whole shebang...?

dsmythy · 05-07-2011 04:27PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If I remember correctly, it ws a patriot who started that whole shebang...?

And other patriots who put an end to it.

EuropeanSon · 05-07-2011 04:28PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country's culture or history. Patriotism can be taken too far, but I don't think it's right to claim that all patriots are idiots, or whatever. Playing GAA, doing Irish dancing, studying Irish literature, history or language can all be considered forms of patriotism. I've no problem with that. I'll stand for the national anthem (what exactly is the harm in that?), I'll speak Irish, I'll watch hurling, I'll read James Joyce, and I'm proud of it. So what? If my country came under siege tomorrow, I'd do anything I could to help stop it. Patriotism is not the belief that your country is best because you were born in it, it's just the belief that your people (your ancestors and children) were and are capable of great things and deserve the best. What's wrong with that?

On a side note, I love seeing people quoting "intellectuals", as if that somehow makes their points more valid.

I don't. I think it's annoying and a sign that either they can't think for themselves or are afraid to explicitly attach themselves to an opinion and so find somebody else's to present as their contribution, all the while thinking that they are being 'profound' somehow.

EuropeanSon · 05-07-2011 04:30PM

dsmythy wrote: »

And other patriots who put an end to it.

Nope. People who didn't want that patriot to implement his plans were the ones who put an end to it. That has nothing to do with being patriotic themselves, at least not necessarily.

mcmoustache · 05-07-2011 04:30PM

ColeTrain wrote: »

Listing a pub in Dublin really proves your point brilliantly. A lot of Celtic fans are Republican minded but the club is open to all and has fans from different backgrounds.

Why mention Celtic at all?

They are a useful generalisation to demonstrate the type of ill-informed patriotism that we all know exists. They're an average football team at best, yet they have a large following here among the lower classes. I know that middle classes support them too but I was just using them as an example. I could have said, people with "Tiocfaigh ár lá" (often misspelt) tattooed on their arms. You know exactly what brand of patriotism I was on about.

ColeTrain wrote: »

No, I never said it existed since the beginning of time. Thankfully it won't be changed.

If this United Ireland project works out, I guarantee that it will be one of the concessions made to unionists.

dpe · 05-07-2011 04:30PM

Gnobe wrote: »

Of course....I reiterate my point, the concept of nation states is no more than an artificial human creation to justify pointless tribalism, I find as I go abroad that we as humans have more in common than we think we do and we should acknowledge that, rather than focus on the differences.

You've got it wrong; the pointless tribalism is a side-effect of the nation-state, not its justification. There are two justifications for the nation-state; economics and culture. In the past, geography=culture (pretty much), now that link is being broken, and eventually the physical nation-state will go with it.

"Irishness" will probably survive (because its a strong culture with a distinctive identity, that's already proven itself to be resiliant outside its host), but it will be more like a club/collective/corporation than a country; physical borders will be irrelevant, in the same way the workplace as a physical place you go to is becoming irrelevant. You might still be "patriotic" (because its human nature to identify with the collective) but it will be to an idea rather than a place.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-07-2011 04:33PM

dsmythy wrote: »

And other patriots who put an end to it.

Well if hadn't been for patriotism in the first place they wouldn't have had to now, would they?

Rothmans · 05-07-2011 04:34PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If I remember correctly, it ws a patriot who started that whole shebang...?

I'd find it quite troubling if anyone were to regard Hitler's actions as patriotic :eek:

Hannibal Smith · 05-07-2011 04:34PM

Gnobe wrote: »

Of course....I reiterate my point, the concept of nation states is no more than an artificial human creation to justify pointless tribalism, I find as I go abroad that we as humans have more in common than we think we do and we should acknowledge that, rather than focus on the differences.

Creating states and boundaries is a civilised way of dealing with territorialism. It's an animal instinct to protect and guard your territory, so instead of marking it out by peeing around a tree, we set up borders.

Da Shins Kelly · 05-07-2011 04:34PM

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I don't. I think it's annoying and a sign that either they can't think for themselves or are afraid to explicitly attach themselves to an opinion and so find somebody else's to present as their contribution, all the while thinking that they are being 'profound' somehow.

I was being sarcastic, but I agree with you.

jimthemental · 05-07-2011 04:35PM

To not subscribe to some form of patriotism (as in trying to make your country better) is surely apathetic. I'm not sure how any progress would come about if we gave up any patriotic drive. We would have no leadership whatsoever, which before anyone gets smart is far worse than bad leadership.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-07-2011 04:35PM

Rothmans wrote: »

I'd find it quite troubling if anyone were to regard Hitler's actions as patriotic :eek:

Yeah... he wasn't that passionate about Germany in all fairness..

jimthemental · 05-07-2011 04:37PM

Rothmans wrote: »

I'd find it quite troubling if anyone were to regard Hitler's actions as patriotic :eek:

In fairness at the start they were patriotic from his point of view. Patriotism is like a shovel, you can build foundations on it or you can bash someone over the head with it but it still has value.

EuropeanSon · 05-07-2011 04:37PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I was being sarcastic, but I agree with you.

Damn the lack of a sarcasm font!:o

Who Else Finds Patriotism Pathetic?

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