Who Else Finds Patriotism Pathetic?

UsernameInUse · 05-07-2011 02:47PM

Rothmans wrote: »

Well then aren't you lucky that there are people who have fought and died for your country and your freedom.

Not at all.

If you sincerely believe that those men and women died for what we have now become, then you're not well versed on the subject. Michael Collins fought against everything we see today. We have merely substituted one bureaucracy for another, except this time it's somehow acceptable that they are "our" bureaucrats.

Captain Darling · 05-07-2011 02:48PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

What's wrong with being patronising?

Arent you great having your own little opinions? Fair play to you, good man.

Rothmans · 05-07-2011 02:48PM

jimthemental wrote: »

I would be proud if I was from those places despite not agreeing with how they are run. It's about respecting the culture and people that shaped you. At the moment I can say that I'm proud to be Irish while not necessarily proud of the way the country is or how we have acted over the past few years. You can't just knock patriotism with a blunt instrument as if it is religious extremism.

Exactly, like how many people in oppressive Middle Eastern/North African countries are rising up against their oppressors there. It is the rebels who are the patriots as they want to remove undemocratic dictators.

Jaden · 05-07-2011 02:50PM

So Patriotism is the love of democracy now?

Ellis Dee · 05-07-2011 02:52PM

It all depends how you define patriotism, what you understand by it, what you think it stands for rather than being against something.:)

You could say the same thing about democracy; after all, virtually every country in the world, even the most egregiously despotic ones, call themselves "democratic", which must surely be one of the most elastic of concepts ever created.:rolleyes:

If, however, patriotism means you respect or at least tolerate most of the values of the nation-state in which you grew up, even if you would like to constructively change some of them, and you wish well for it and your fellow-citizens, what could possibly be wrong with that? Patriotism is not weakened by looking outwards and respecting others; on the contrary, it is probably strengthened, because you become more motivated to improve your own community using ideas that you have learned and consider positive and useful.

Naturally, patriotism can evolve over time and one's primary attachment can gradually shift to a different (usually larger, but possibly also smaller) unit, but this is generally a rather slow process.:)

starviewadams · 05-07-2011 02:53PM

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

I for one am extremely proud to be Irish, and it has nothing to do with wars or fighting over land. Im proud of our culture and the fact a country of our size has had a big impact all over the world.

Like it or not op the country in which you grow up does have a big influence on the way you are today you can deny it all you want but thats fact.
as for not standing for the national anthem that sickens me, I dont just stand for the Irish national anthem id stand for all national anthems its a mark of respect.

i.e this when Ireland played France the French loved the Irish fans for this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7frOs1pQkQ

Proud of a bunch of drunk lads shouting?

Logical Fallacy · 05-07-2011 02:56PM

Jaden wrote: »

So Patriotism is the love of democracy now?

Not really, but an argument could be made that living in a democracy would lead to a more lax view of the importance of patriotic feelings.

Look at the Arab Summer. I reckon people involved in protests and bringing down tyrant rulers feel pretty patriotic, and their actions are taken in the hope of a better future for them, their families and their country.

On the other hand, i reckon memebers of defence forces feel pretty patriotic for fighting for what they see as the rightful ruler of their country.

Patriotism is not, like most things in life, a black and white issue.

jimthemental · 05-07-2011 02:56PM

checkyabadself wrote: »

freedom, eh?

Fine replace it with "should"

Doubt it'll make you feel any less anal though.

Aldebaran · 05-07-2011 02:58PM

I'm not a patriot until I hear people of other nationalities giving out about Ireland.

dark crystal · 05-07-2011 02:58PM

Isn't patriotism just a form of tribalism - something which has been a part of all cultures since time immemorial?

Surely It is just human nature to want to belong and have a common identity and therefore to defend that identity if threatened by another tribe.

Not saying patriotism is always good or right (especially when used to undermine or overpower another 'tribe'), but patriotism, when taken at it's purest level, can be very good for the human spirit.

I wouldn't call general patriotism pathetic at all.

Marty McFly · 05-07-2011 03:01PM

starviewadams wrote: »

Proud of a bunch of drunk lads shouting?

Just aswell the French didnt have the same sceptical view you have of it then isnt it, because I was over there and it was said to me a number of times by French people how much they appreciated the Irish fans attempts to sing there national anthem.:rolleyes:

--Kaiser-- · 05-07-2011 03:12PM

The last refuge of the scoundrel

mcmoustache · 05-07-2011 03:16PM

I'm ok with middle-class patriotism but I can't stand the lower-class patriotism that borders on sectarianism. Give me Michael D Higgins over a Celtic fan any day.

As for the anthem.... it needs to be changed. No way am I ever going to sing "We are Fianna Fáil....". I'd sooner sing the original English version but I don't know the words and I'm not too keen on that one either. It just sounds so 1940's. It basically says "We are great at fighting and one day we'll get those British bast*rds with our noisy guns". F*ck that! I write accounting software and the most fighting I'll be doing will be in CoD.

Instead, they should change it so that the gist is "Sure, we're small and we're pretty average but our football team punches above its weight and our economy is more agile than the big countries. We export smart people. We can't defend ourselves but that's OK. The Brits and Yanks will save us in return for unrestricted use of our country. We don't have our own language anymore because our ancestors didn't give a shít. Our leaders are a bunch of self-serving gombeens and we think we deserve lifestyles that we can't afford. But still, we're proud.".

Seriously, though, we should have one with similar lyrics to Spain's. Their lyrics, when translated to English, sound like the sanest national anthem in the world.

sdanseo · 05-07-2011 03:20PM

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I find patriotism a mental disease.

To actually believe in dying for a piece of land that you happened to be born by random circumstances is beyond me. I have no attachment to the person living down the road, across the city or from the other side of the country simply because their Irish. I'm an individual, my love doesn't exist for this country and it's people, but rather for other specific individuals regardless of whatever part of the world they happen to come from. I would never fight for this country and I never stand for the national anthem, nor do I get all choked up about folklore songs and miniature flags. I see people that recognise this as subconsciously accepting an idea of "us and them", as in, understanding that we are different some how. But the one that really irks me is that racist patriot - you know, "too much immigrants" and all that....
What exactly are these people trying to protect? Countries are man-made; their existence was not written in the stars so to speak. And, most crucially, they have only been around for a few thousand years, if that. It just goes to show the infancy of our species.

This usually leads those ignorant enough to believe that we are at war with certain other nations when in actual fact, the media does little to make clear that only a handful of men have committed an atrocity. So the next time you pick up a paper or hear that "America has gone to war with ________". Instead, say to yourself, "one part of the world has sent 20,000 other people from that part of the world to kill other people in a different part of the world". Wasn't it Oscar Wilde that said "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious".

And so, when I hear this "better deal for Ireland from the E.U", I just have to chuckle. I am not against Europe in the sense that we are in an economic downturn. Instead, I am against the E.U for what it is in general. I am a believer in freedom, but that not only extends to the people born of this island, but for all who wish to come and live it here with us.

Get out.

ColeTrain · 05-07-2011 03:20PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Dunno if I'd say paethetic, but certainly massive overrated.

I've always wondered how people can call religious believers "weak" or "deluded" and then go and put their faith in a nationality. Same thing.

It's not the same thing at all. Even the most hardened patriot doesn't put their faith in a country.

Angeles · 05-07-2011 03:24PM

Everyone in the world is patriotic when the circumstances arise, sure you can be all fancy and say patriotism is a load of ****e and that your way more intelligent to go with that malarkey and i'd be inclined to agree!

However, the moment someone threatens the home i grew up in and the family i care deeply for, by means of threatening the country we live in?
Will suddenly and very swiftly find a large patriotic pitch fork shoved up their arse!

Dyr · 05-07-2011 03:28PM

BrerWolf wrote: »

Me!

Patriotism is just daft.
I'm from here, so here is great!
they're not from here so they're not as good as us!

nonesense

It certainly is nonsense because thats not what patriotsim is at all

ColeTrain · 05-07-2011 03:28PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm ok with middle-class patriotism but I can't stand the lower-class patriotism that borders on sectarianism. Give me Michael D Higgins over a Celtic fan any day.

Celtic are a football club, what do you know about the average supporters views on patriotism?

mcmoustache wrote: »

As for the anthem.... it needs to be changed. No way am I ever going to sing "We are Fianna Fáil....". I'd sooner sing the original English version but I don't know the words and I'm not too keen on that one either. It just sounds so 1940's. It basically says "We are great at fighting and one day we'll get those British bast*rds with our noisy guns". F*ck that! I write accounting software and the most fighting I'll be doing will be in CoD.

Instead, they should change it so that the gist is "Sure, we're small and we're pretty average but our football team punches above its weight and our economy is more agile than the big countries. We export smart people. We can't defend ourselves but that's OK. The Brits and Yanks will save us in return for unrestricted use of our country. We don't have our own language anymore because our ancestors didn't give a shít. Our leaders are a bunch of self-serving gombeens and we think we deserve lifestyles that we can't afford. But still, we're proud.".

Seriously, though, we should have one with similar lyrics to Spain's. Their lyrics, when translated to English, sound like the sanest national anthem in the world.

National anthems shouldn't change. It's part of our history. What next? Change the flag because people don't like green.

pbowenroe · 05-07-2011 03:30PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm ok with middle-class patriotism but I can't stand the lower-class patriotism that borders on sectarianism. Give me Michael D Higgins over a Celtic fan any day.

:rolleyes:

Hannibal Smith · 05-07-2011 03:32PM

Being proud of your Country, in my opinion, is like being proud of who you are, why should you be proud of who you are just because you're an individual person?

I love being Irish, I love our culture, our humour, our heritage. I can't understand why you wouldn't be proud of your country

mcmoustache · 05-07-2011 03:38PM

ColeTrain wrote: »

Celtic are a football club, what do you know about the average supporters views on patriotism?

Take a trip up to the Player's Lounge for an evening with The Druids and take a look around you. You know what I'm talking about.

ColeTrain wrote: »

National anthems shouldn't change. It's part of our history. What next? Change the flag because people don't like green.

Why did we change ours then? You think "A Soldier's Song" existed since the beginning of time? Anthems change all the time. You just haven't been around long enough to witness it.

listermint · 05-07-2011 03:41PM

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Not at all.

If you sincerely believe that those men and women died for what we have now become, then you're not well versed on the subject. Michael Collins fought against everything we see today. We have merely substituted one bureaucracy for another, except this time it's somehow acceptable that they are "our" bureaucrats.

The fact that you have the freedom to post your nonsense is a freedom you should be greatful for in itself. You would have another attitude if you were lets say in North Korea or Sudan or Somalia or Libya or ..... the list is endless.

You have a very special gift. Freedom and you should be greatful for that. Because better people than you have fought and died for it. Your attitude stinks of lazyness.

All this talk of everyone in the world is one and the world is globalised is a complete fallacy like it or loath it there are people out there that will murder you and your family just for being white / black / western / green purple. The world is a hard place and youve managed to be born into an incredibly nice corner of it. So for that sir 'Cop on'

Until the oil runs out and greed has been banished from the Human pyshicy there will be need for people to lay their lives down for others.

mcmoustache · 05-07-2011 03:43PM

pbowenroe wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Very good. Now look to your right.... there are more. Try some :mad: or maybe

. If you combine them you can get some really funky emotions such as

:mad::D:eek:.

Then when you're comfortable with them, try that thing with the funny symbols on it in front of you. If you press any symbol, it will appear on the screen. You can combine them into words too which make for a great way to express your views.

Go on. Try it.

SharpshooterTom · 05-07-2011 03:44PM

Patrioitism's no more than a crappy man made concept, just like religion. Other animals/species don't know when they're on Ireland or England, it's merely an artificial creation created by the human race.

Why not have a one world government, or larger regions like an EU superstate? It would certainly eliminate patriotism.

jimthemental · 05-07-2011 03:46PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

Very good. Now look to your right.... there are more. Try some :mad: or maybe . If you combine them you can get some really funky emotions such as :mad::D:eek:.

Then when you're comfortable with them, try that thing with the funny symbols on it in front of you. If you press any symbol, it will appear on the screen. You can combine them into words too which make for a great way to express your views.

Go on. Try it.

Patronising down to a fine art there. Well done.

Chuck Stone · 05-07-2011 03:47PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If the Brittish were still in rule, do you think they would still be oppressive? How so?

Useless conjecture is useless.

We are where we are, going forward, at the end of the day.

People don't so much fight and die for their country as they do to remove an oppressive administration from their geographic region.

Patriotism can be used for a good reason (unite people under a common goal to remove an distasteful or oppressive regime).

Misplaced 'patriotism' can also be used to oppress a population (Turning private debts into national ones) 'Ireland' is in debt to the tune of bla bla bla.

I like being Irish and I like my fellow Irishmen (and women, easy now).
What does that mean?

Fucked if I know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

05-07-2011 03:48PM

Ireland is trying to consume its young just look at the "internship" thread

I dont know how you could feel patriotic about a country that advertises toilet cleaning as an "internship"

Witchie · 05-07-2011 03:49PM

I agree with the op. I consider myself a human and that's the only race I give a feck about. I am proud of some of my fellow country men and women but less so of those who have killed allegedly in my name. I am also proud of people from other countries who have inspired me with their achievements. I prefer ballet to Irish dancing, I prefer football to gaelic, I would rather speak French than Irish and I prefer to eat rice to spuds. They are all things that make me me and I don't give a flying f bout the fact that I was born in fermanagh and people call me a west brit, I am me and I think patriotism is a waste of time.

Hannibal Smith · 05-07-2011 03:54PM

Gnobe wrote: »

Patrioitism's no more than a crappy man made concept, just like religion. Other animals/species don't know when they're on Ireland or England, it's merely an artificial creation created by the human race.

Why not have a one world government, or larger regions like an EU superstate? It would certainly eliminate patriotism.

Oh my days

An animal may not know what Country it's living in, but they sure know about territory. One male lion encroaching on another male lion's territory better be willing to get it's claws out

How on earth would creating a world government eliminate patriotism? How could you possibly govern the entire world?

Hannibal Smith · 05-07-2011 03:55PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

how did you do that :eek:

Who Else Finds Patriotism Pathetic?

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