Who Else Finds Patriotism Pathetic?

UsernameInUse

I find patriotism a mental disease.

To actually believe in dying for a piece of land that you happened to be born by random circumstances is beyond me. I have no attachment to the person living down the road, across the city or from the other side of the country simply because their Irish. I'm an individual, my love doesn't exist for this country and it's people, but rather for other specific individuals regardless of whatever part of the world they happen to come from. I would never fight for this country and I never stand for the national anthem, nor do I get all choked up about folklore songs and miniature flags. I see people that recognise this as subconsciously accepting an idea of "us and them", as in, understanding that we are different some how. But the one that really irks me is that racist patriot - you know, "too much immigrants" and all that....
What exactly are these people trying to protect? Countries are man-made; their existence was not written in the stars so to speak. And, most crucially, they have only been around for a few thousand years, if that. It just goes to show the infancy of our species.

This usually leads those ignorant enough to believe that we are at war with certain other nations when in actual fact, the media does little to make clear that only a handful of men have committed an atrocity. So the next time you pick up a paper or hear that "America has gone to war with ________". Instead, say to yourself, "one part of the world has sent 20,000 other people from that part of the world to kill other people in a different part of the world". Wasn't it Oscar Wilde that said "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious".

And so, when I hear this "better deal for Ireland from the E.U", I just have to chuckle. I am not against Europe in the sense that we are in an economic downturn. Instead, I am against the E.U for what it is in general. I am a believer in freedom, but that not only extends to the people born of this island, but for all who wish to come and live it here with us.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dunno if I'd say paethetic, but certainly massive overrated.

I've always wondered how people can call religious believers "weak" or "deluded" and then go and put their faith in a nationality. Same thing.

LenaClaire

I think Sir Walter Scott summed it up best...

BREATHES there the man with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
'This is my own, my native land!'
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burn'd
As home his footsteps he hath turn'd
From wandering on a foreign strand?
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour'd, and unsung.

BrerWolf

Me!

Patriotism is just daft.
I'm from here, so here is great!
they're not from here so they're not as good as us!


nonesense

kfallon

Proud to be Irish, love my country, love the people, yes I'm a Patriot.

Thanks!

Rothmans

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I find patriotism a mental disease.

To actually believe in dying for a piece of land that you happened to be born by random circumstances is beyond me. I have no attachment to the person living down the road, across the city or from the other side of the country simply because their Irish. I'm an individual, my love doesn't exist for this country and it's people, but rather for other specific individuals regardless of whatever part of the world they happen to come from. I would never fight for this country and I never stand for the national anthem, nor do I get all choked up about folklore songs and miniature flags. I see people that recognise this as subconsciously accepting an idea of "us and them", as in, understanding that we are different some how. But the one that really irks me is that racist patriot - you know, "too much immigrants" and all that....
What exactly are these people trying to protect? Countries are man-made; their existence was not written in the stars so to speak. And, most crucially, they have only been around for a few thousand years, if that. It just goes to show the infancy of our species.

This usually leads those ignorant enough to believe that we are at war with certain other nations when in actual fact, the media does little to make clear that only a handful of men have committed an atrocity. So the next time you pick up a paper or hear that "America has gone to war with ________". Instead, say to yourself, "one part of the world has sent 20,000 other people from that part of the world to kill other people in a different part of the world". Wasn't it Oscar Wilde that said "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious".

And so, when I hear this "better deal for Ireland from the E.U", I just have to chuckle. I am not against Europe in the sense that we are in an economic downturn. Instead, I am against the E.U for what it is in general. I am a believer in freedom, but that not only extends to the people born of this island, but for all who wish to come and live it here with us.

Well then aren't you lucky that there are people who have fought and died for your country and your freedom.

Dravokivich

What's wrong with being patronising?

ShamoBuc

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I find patriotism a mental disease.

If you say so.

jimthemental

OP I disagree with almost everything you said. Also not standing for your national anthem sickens me, you have to be proud of where you come from, no matter where that is. It's about the culture and history not the land but hey, your opinions obviously differ wildly from mine so we'll leave it at that.

Logical Fallacy

Rothmans wrote: »

Well then aren't you lucky that there are people who have fought and died for your country and your freedom.

Pretty much.

OP, you can happily sit there with your opinion simply because you have never been required to have any other. You live in an independent democracy which, while inept, is not evil. Nor are you living under the thumb, jurisdiction or cruelty of a foreign invader.

As such, it's important to caveat the stance you are taking with the disclaimer that it is an easy one to take, as none other is currently required of you.

wild_cat

Rothmans wrote: »

Well then aren't you lucky that there are people who have fought and died for your country and your freedom.

And look at the lovely country we have today folks!

I do agree that people should group to denounce evil and hatred. But when evil and hatred spurs due to the flag you march under...

well then it can get fecked.

Wolfe Tone

I find this kind of ingratitude towards those who have fought and died for Irelands freedom, and the slagging off of people who love their country, pretty annoying tbh

Spread

So, the OP would capitulate in all circumstances. Hmmmmmm!

NothingMan

Dravokivich wrote: »

What's wrong with being patronising?

Aww, look at little Drav trying to keep up with the big boys. :P

jimthemental

wild_cat wrote: »

And look at the lovely country we have today folks!

I do agree that people should group to denounce evil and hatred. But when evil and hatred spurs due to the flag you march under...

well then it can get fecked.

No. In that case you become a patriot by trying to remove that kind of stain from the flag and promoting what you believe to be right.

checkyabadself

" I am neither Greek, nor Athenian, I am a citizen of this world." -Socrates.

Patriotism will die out eventually, the majority of people in the world don't wish to fight other peoples wars over imaginary lines on the map. It served a purpose for a while but its pretty redundant in todays globalised world.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Rothmans wrote: »

Well then aren't you lucky that there are people who have fought and died for your country and your freedom.

Now this is that bit I have issue with: in what way do I have freedom that I would not have had 1916 never occured? What would I be able to do that I can't now as an individual?

Freedom is a euphamism for "someone else's control".

Rothmans

wild_cat wrote: »

And look at the lovely country we have today folks!

I do agree that people should group to denounce evil and hatred. But when evil and hatred spurs due to the flag you march under...

well then it can get fecked.

And those who created the mess this country (ie previous governments and unsrcupulous bankers) is in now do not represent what Ireland stands for.

As Mark Twain once said -

''Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it''

Wolfe Tone

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Now this is that bit I have issue with: in what way do I have freedom that I would not have had 1916 never occured? What would I be able to do that I can't now as an individual?

Freedom is a euphamism for "someone else's control".

If the vision of the 1916 rebels had have been adhered to and implemented by the freestate, ideals of equality etc The people of the day would certainly have had more freedoms. Instead we had the political elite and the RCC holding us down... But even that was better than being under the oppressive British who refused to recognize the democratic rights of the Irish, and generally treated us as second class citizens, they couldn't give a fcuk.

Jaden

Rothmans wrote: »

Well then aren't you lucky that there are people who have fought and died for your country and your freedom.

They fought and died for the freedom of others not to have to stand for the national anthem.

“Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” - George Bernard Shaw.

Mark200

jimthemental wrote: »

you have to be proud of where you come from, no matter where that is.

Is that not a bit silly? Why be so proud and respectful of Ireland when you know full well that you'd be just as proud of any other country if you happened to have been born there? Why should you be proud to be from Iran if you disagree with what the whole country stands for. Why be proud to be from North Korea if you hate everything that happens there? Where you're born is an accident of birth so its ridiculous to expect people to be unquestionably proud of that accident.

ejmaztec

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Now this is that bit I have issue with: in what way do I have freedom that I would not have had 1916 never occured? What would I be able to do that I can't now as an individual?

Freedom is a euphamism for "someone else's control".

**** running the country before independence and **** running it since. The flag changed though.

Hank Scorpio

Who else finds patrionising patriotism pathetic?
(triple P = bonus points)

Rothmans

Jaden wrote: »

They fought and died for the freedom of others not to have to stand for the national anthem.

“Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” - George Bernard Shaw.

''1.devotion to one's own country and concern for its defence
2.a devoted love, support, and defense of one’s country; national loyalty''

-the dictionary.

My name is URL

Does not standing for the national anthem mean you're unpatriotic?

I'm patriotic in the sense that I want the country in which I live to prosper.. that's about as patriotic as I feel anybody needs to be.

Spread

checkyabadself wrote: »

" I am neither Greek, nor Athenian, I am a citizen of this world." -Socrates.

.................................................................................. QUOTE]

"But if you are Greek, young and good looking watch your tail". - Norris

jimthemental

Mark200 wrote: »

Is that not a bit silly? Why be so proud and respectful of Ireland when you know full well that you'd be just as proud of any other country if you happened to have been born there? Why should you be proud to be from Iran if you disagree with what the whole country stands for. Why be proud to be from North Korea if you hate everything that happens there? Where you're born is an accident of birth so its ridiculous to expect people to be unquestionably proud of that accident.

I would be proud if I was from those places despite not agreeing with how they are run. It's about respecting the culture and people that shaped you. At the moment I can say that I'm proud to be Irish while not necessarily proud of the way the country is or how we have acted over the past few years. You can't just knock patriotism with a blunt instrument as if it is religious extremism.

Marty McFly

I for one am extremely proud to be Irish, and it has nothing to do with wars or fighting over land. Im proud of our culture and the fact a country of our size has had a big impact all over the world.

Like it or not op the country in which you grow up does have a big influence on the way you are today you can deny it all you want but thats fact.
as for not standing for the national anthem that sickens me, I dont just stand for the Irish national anthem id stand for all national anthems its a mark of respect.

i.e this when Ireland played France the French loved the Irish fans for this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7frOs1pQkQ

Mark200

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Now this is that bit I have issue with: in what way do I have freedom that I would not have had 1916 never occured? What would I be able to do that I can't now as an individual?

Freedom is a euphamism for "someone else's control".

If the vision of the 1916 rebels had have been adhered to and implemented by the freestate, ideals of equality etc The people of the day would certainly have had more freedoms. Instead we had the political elite and the RCC holding us down...

Our 'founders' were more than happy to get into bed with the church.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If the vision of the 1916 rebels had have been adhered to and implemented by the freestate, ideals of equality etc The people of the day would certainly have had more freedoms. Instead we had the political elite and the RCC holding us down... But even that was better than being under the oppressive British who refused to recognize the democratic rights of the Irish, and generally treated us as second class citizens, they couldn't give a fcuk.

Reads liike you copied and paste it from somewhere.

But it was my point: we were simply controlled by a different group of people. I don't think either the Church or our own politicians ever recognised us as equals.

If the Brittish were still in rule, do you think they would still be oppressive? How so?

checkyabadself

jimthemental wrote: »

Also not standing for your national anthem sickens me, you have to be proud of where you come from, no matter where that is.

freedom, eh?

UsernameInUse

Rothmans wrote: »

Well then aren't you lucky that there are people who have fought and died for your country and your freedom.

Not at all.

If you sincerely believe that those men and women died for what we have now become, then you're not well versed on the subject. Michael Collins fought against everything we see today. We have merely substituted one bureaucracy for another, except this time it's somehow acceptable that they are "our" bureaucrats.

Captain Darling

Dravokivich wrote: »

What's wrong with being patronising?

Arent you great having your own little opinions? Fair play to you, good man.

Rothmans

jimthemental wrote: »

I would be proud if I was from those places despite not agreeing with how they are run. It's about respecting the culture and people that shaped you. At the moment I can say that I'm proud to be Irish while not necessarily proud of the way the country is or how we have acted over the past few years. You can't just knock patriotism with a blunt instrument as if it is religious extremism.

Exactly, like how many people in oppressive Middle Eastern/North African countries are rising up against their oppressors there. It is the rebels who are the patriots as they want to remove undemocratic dictators.

Jaden

So Patriotism is the love of democracy now?

Ellis Dee

It all depends how you define patriotism, what you understand by it, what you think it stands for rather than being against something.:)

You could say the same thing about democracy; after all, virtually every country in the world, even the most egregiously despotic ones, call themselves "democratic", which must surely be one of the most elastic of concepts ever created.:rolleyes:

If, however, patriotism means you respect or at least tolerate most of the values of the nation-state in which you grew up, even if you would like to constructively change some of them, and you wish well for it and your fellow-citizens, what could possibly be wrong with that? Patriotism is not weakened by looking outwards and respecting others; on the contrary, it is probably strengthened, because you become more motivated to improve your own community using ideas that you have learned and consider positive and useful.

Naturally, patriotism can evolve over time and one's primary attachment can gradually shift to a different (usually larger, but possibly also smaller) unit, but this is generally a rather slow process.:)

starviewadams

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

I for one am extremely proud to be Irish, and it has nothing to do with wars or fighting over land. Im proud of our culture and the fact a country of our size has had a big impact all over the world.

Like it or not op the country in which you grow up does have a big influence on the way you are today you can deny it all you want but thats fact.
as for not standing for the national anthem that sickens me, I dont just stand for the Irish national anthem id stand for all national anthems its a mark of respect.

i.e this when Ireland played France the French loved the Irish fans for this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7frOs1pQkQ

Proud of a bunch of drunk lads shouting?

Logical Fallacy

Jaden wrote: »

So Patriotism is the love of democracy now?

Not really, but an argument could be made that living in a democracy would lead to a more lax view of the importance of patriotic feelings.

Look at the Arab Summer. I reckon people involved in protests and bringing down tyrant rulers feel pretty patriotic, and their actions are taken in the hope of a better future for them, their families and their country.

On the other hand, i reckon memebers of defence forces feel pretty patriotic for fighting for what they see as the rightful ruler of their country.

Patriotism is not, like most things in life, a black and white issue.

jimthemental

checkyabadself wrote: »

freedom, eh?

Fine replace it with "should"

Doubt it'll make you feel any less anal though.

Aldebaran

I'm not a patriot until I hear people of other nationalities giving out about Ireland.

dark crystal

Isn't patriotism just a form of tribalism - something which has been a part of all cultures since time immemorial?

Surely It is just human nature to want to belong and have a common identity and therefore to defend that identity if threatened by another tribe.

Not saying patriotism is always good or right (especially when used to undermine or overpower another 'tribe'), but patriotism, when taken at it's purest level, can be very good for the human spirit.

I wouldn't call general patriotism pathetic at all.

Marty McFly

starviewadams wrote: »

Proud of a bunch of drunk lads shouting?

Just aswell the French didnt have the same sceptical view you have of it then isnt it, because I was over there and it was said to me a number of times by French people how much they appreciated the Irish fans attempts to sing there national anthem.:rolleyes:

--Kaiser--

The last refuge of the scoundrel

mcmoustache

I'm ok with middle-class patriotism but I can't stand the lower-class patriotism that borders on sectarianism. Give me Michael D Higgins over a Celtic fan any day.

As for the anthem.... it needs to be changed. No way am I ever going to sing "We are Fianna Fáil....". I'd sooner sing the original English version but I don't know the words and I'm not too keen on that one either. It just sounds so 1940's. It basically says "We are great at fighting and one day we'll get those British bast*rds with our noisy guns". F*ck that! I write accounting software and the most fighting I'll be doing will be in CoD.

Instead, they should change it so that the gist is "Sure, we're small and we're pretty average but our football team punches above its weight and our economy is more agile than the big countries. We export smart people. We can't defend ourselves but that's OK. The Brits and Yanks will save us in return for unrestricted use of our country. We don't have our own language anymore because our ancestors didn't give a shít. Our leaders are a bunch of self-serving gombeens and we think we deserve lifestyles that we can't afford. But still, we're proud.".

Seriously, though, we should have one with similar lyrics to Spain's. Their lyrics, when translated to English, sound like the sanest national anthem in the world.

sdanseo

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I find patriotism a mental disease.

To actually believe in dying for a piece of land that you happened to be born by random circumstances is beyond me. I have no attachment to the person living down the road, across the city or from the other side of the country simply because their Irish. I'm an individual, my love doesn't exist for this country and it's people, but rather for other specific individuals regardless of whatever part of the world they happen to come from. I would never fight for this country and I never stand for the national anthem, nor do I get all choked up about folklore songs and miniature flags. I see people that recognise this as subconsciously accepting an idea of "us and them", as in, understanding that we are different some how. But the one that really irks me is that racist patriot - you know, "too much immigrants" and all that....
What exactly are these people trying to protect? Countries are man-made; their existence was not written in the stars so to speak. And, most crucially, they have only been around for a few thousand years, if that. It just goes to show the infancy of our species.

This usually leads those ignorant enough to believe that we are at war with certain other nations when in actual fact, the media does little to make clear that only a handful of men have committed an atrocity. So the next time you pick up a paper or hear that "America has gone to war with ________". Instead, say to yourself, "one part of the world has sent 20,000 other people from that part of the world to kill other people in a different part of the world". Wasn't it Oscar Wilde that said "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious".

And so, when I hear this "better deal for Ireland from the E.U", I just have to chuckle. I am not against Europe in the sense that we are in an economic downturn. Instead, I am against the E.U for what it is in general. I am a believer in freedom, but that not only extends to the people born of this island, but for all who wish to come and live it here with us.

Get out.

ColeTrain

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Dunno if I'd say paethetic, but certainly massive overrated.

I've always wondered how people can call religious believers "weak" or "deluded" and then go and put their faith in a nationality. Same thing.

It's not the same thing at all. Even the most hardened patriot doesn't put their faith in a country.

Angeles

Everyone in the world is patriotic when the circumstances arise, sure you can be all fancy and say patriotism is a load of ****e and that your way more intelligent to go with that malarkey and i'd be inclined to agree!

However, the moment someone threatens the home i grew up in and the family i care deeply for, by means of threatening the country we live in?
Will suddenly and very swiftly find a large patriotic pitch fork shoved up their arse!

Dyr

BrerWolf wrote: »

Me!

Patriotism is just daft.
I'm from here, so here is great!
they're not from here so they're not as good as us!


nonesense

It certainly is nonsense because thats not what patriotsim is at all

ColeTrain

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm ok with middle-class patriotism but I can't stand the lower-class patriotism that borders on sectarianism. Give me Michael D Higgins over a Celtic fan any day.

Celtic are a football club, what do you know about the average supporters views on patriotism?

mcmoustache wrote: »

As for the anthem.... it needs to be changed. No way am I ever going to sing "We are Fianna Fáil....". I'd sooner sing the original English version but I don't know the words and I'm not too keen on that one either. It just sounds so 1940's. It basically says "We are great at fighting and one day we'll get those British bast*rds with our noisy guns". F*ck that! I write accounting software and the most fighting I'll be doing will be in CoD.

Instead, they should change it so that the gist is "Sure, we're small and we're pretty average but our football team punches above its weight and our economy is more agile than the big countries. We export smart people. We can't defend ourselves but that's OK. The Brits and Yanks will save us in return for unrestricted use of our country. We don't have our own language anymore because our ancestors didn't give a shít. Our leaders are a bunch of self-serving gombeens and we think we deserve lifestyles that we can't afford. But still, we're proud.".

Seriously, though, we should have one with similar lyrics to Spain's. Their lyrics, when translated to English, sound like the sanest national anthem in the world.

National anthems shouldn't change. It's part of our history. What next? Change the flag because people don't like green.

pbowenroe

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm ok with middle-class patriotism but I can't stand the lower-class patriotism that borders on sectarianism. Give me Michael D Higgins over a Celtic fan any day.

:rolleyes:

Hannibal Smith

Being proud of your Country, in my opinion, is like being proud of who you are, why should you be proud of who you are just because you're an individual person?

I love being Irish, I love our culture, our humour, our heritage. I can't understand why you wouldn't be proud of your country