Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

L.Jenkins · 24-06-2011 10:58PM

Ficheall wrote: »

So what we take from this is that when we kill someone who trespasses on our property, instead of informing the guards, we instead dispose of the body?

I thought the law here in Ireland now stated that you could kill someone in defense of your own life, but with out malicious intent or going over board, i.e. stabbing or shooting them multiple times.

galwayrush · 24-06-2011 11:12PM

Ficheall wrote: »

So what we take from this is that when we kill someone who trespasses on our property, instead of informing the guards, we instead dispose of the body?

Where i live , no point trying to call the Gardai to try and protect me and my family, it would take them an hour to get here.

Manic Moran · 24-06-2011 11:16PM

Ficheall wrote: »

So what we take from this is that when we kill someone who trespasses on our property, instead of informing the guards, we instead dispose of the body?

The Three Ss. Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

NTM

amacachi · 24-06-2011 11:19PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think it is important to differentiate the types of people who might break into a home;

Again that's easier said than done. We were burgled about 5 or 6 years ago, found out later that the guy we know did it routinely carried a handgun. Some junky tried getting in a couple of months ago and wasn't long leaving once disturbed. Had it been the other way around things may have been very different.

mcmoustache · 24-06-2011 11:25PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think it is important to differentiate the types of people who might break into a home;

In mine own area we have had cases where the thieves have been no more than young teenagers after cash and nothing else. The homeowners were not in any danger and the thieves scarpered as soon as they realised there were people in the house.

In such cases I think using physical violence would not be remotely necessary. These thieves are practically children and are not out to hurt anyone.

At the other end of the scale you have what we call Tiger Kidnappers, who hold people captive at knife/gunpoint and in these types of cases I do think you should be able to defend yourself.

I do not believe we should be allowed to kill intruders indiscriminatly. Teenagers after cash are in a completely different league to armed gangs to be fair.

The problem is that in the cold dark of night, a home-owner doesn't know who's making those noises in their house. Burglars don't chat when they're on a job so there is no way to know what kind of person has intruded into your house.

With so little information, you need to make assumptions, otherwise you'll be paralyzed by indecision. Assuming that it's just a bunch of kids, could get you killed and would be stupid. The safest assumption to make is that the burglars are dangerous and act accordingly. It might result in the death of a burglar but the death of a family member or yourself would be worse.

It's a bit off-topic but the chances of a burglary being the first or last crime for a perpetrator are vanishingly small. If you willingly let a burglar get away with the crime you are an accessory to the next burglary that they commit. Arresting, crippling or killing a burglar prevents that from happening. As long as it's done lawfully, I won't lose much sleep over it.

L.Jenkins · 24-06-2011 11:28PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Three Ss. Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

NTM

Don't forget the bag of lime and if the blood stains are a bit too much, Amonia does the trick sorting that out. Creates unuseable evidence

mcmoustache · 24-06-2011 11:34PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I am aware of that.

But that does not mean we should assume every teenage thief who breaks into a home is doing so with the express purpose of torturing the occupants, most would not even in consider it I would imagine.

You should assume that. Like driving, you should assume that other vehicles are likely to do something stupid. Why take the chance? Their lives are their responsibility, not yours. There is a high price for you if you assume that they are harmless and it subsequently turns out that they are not.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Obviously in the above case, of course you can defend yourself. But if you disturb a young lad/girl who is only after your cash and they run I see no reason to go after them.

1. To recover your property.

2. To arrest (you can arrest a burglar, 5+ year sentence and all that) the perps to prevent them from going after and possibly killing your neighbour and also to put them in jail and out of commission for a while.

and 3. To let them know that a crazy person lives in your house who won't just let them run away with a bag of swag.

mcmoustache · 24-06-2011 11:45PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Now im not saying that a bunch of opertunistic unarmed junkies should be killed trying to rob my tv , but they should be physically deterred , on the other hand If somebody shows up to my house with a weapon capable of killing me and is attempting to use it to harm or kill me then I should be , within full agreement of the law , allowed to kill that person, even if it means following them off my property with a weapon

I would qualify that with "..if they have my property or pose a later threat".

Don't get me wrong, I have hurleys in every room and, more importantly, know how to swing for the head in a confined space, but I wouldn't chase after a burglar to teach them a lesson.

Greentopia · 24-06-2011 11:46PM

Mistyeyes321 wrote: »

Yeah it could be my death it could also be my death if I run & hide in a bedroom or run out of the house the very same could apply!

It could but the level of risk is not the same to your person if you run or hide that if you confront a (perhaps armed) burglar.

Of course there will be always the violent criminals who are not content with stealing and will injure or kill an occupant just for the hell of it if they're in the house at the time, but that's not what happens in most house robberies.
They just want to get in, rob the place, and leave without being disturbed or caught. It's happened to a friend of mine several times in the past few years here in Arklow. They just wanted her jewellry and DVD player and the teenagers who did it bought drink/drugs with their haul. Luckily she was never home when they broke in.

The only way it would definitely be more dangerous to flee your house is if you knew the intruder had accomplices waiting for him outside the front/back door, or if the thief gave chase after you out of your home wielding a knife or something!

If you lock yourself in the bedroom you'll be able to call the Guards (providing your phone is with you) and the intruder would have to break down the bedroom door to get in, so you could either get out your bedroom window if you're on the ground floor like I am, or be ready to attack or clobber the intruder with whatever weapon you have to hand in your bedroom when he enters.

Either way you'd be at more of an advantage than confronting someone who may be armed and dangerous-unless as I say you know for certain you'd have physical advantage, training over him.
The advice the Guards give is the same btw-run or hide if you can and call the Guards.

Just to illustrate my point, although circumstances are a little different:
A local shopkeeper here in Arklow, lovely guy, family man and former neighbour of mine was stabbed through the heart and killed last year when he confronted a guy who came in to rob his shop.

He'd been robbed several times before so I could understand his anger and frustration but the point is if he hadn't confronted him John Deasy would still be alive today. The guy who did it was caught btw and got mandatory life sentence plus 6 years for robbery. Irish Times article about it.

No point being a dead hero.

Drake66 · 24-06-2011 11:46PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

From the tactical perspective, there is much to be said for launching the attack as opposed to waiting to see what develops. Even if the skill levels of the two are entirely the same, the psychological effect cannot be overstated. For example, most military bayonet charges were won or lost before the two sides ever made contact, there's a reason the 'war cry' was commonly used. If you have the initiative, and you are psychologically upsetting (Sorry, small 5' ladies, it won't work as well for you), it may well be safer for you to engage at a time and place of your chosing rather than waiting for the engagement to happen on the other guy's terms. For example, if you have a blind corner at the top of the staircase, it may well be worth taking the chance and knocking them back down the stairs as soon as they make it to the top, as opposed to hiding in the bathroom and hoping they don't see you. They will have all the time it takes to come back up the stairs again (probably in some pain) to consider if they really want to deal with whoever just knocked them down, and the act of knocking an unexpecting person down the stairs is such that it doesn't take much strength or skill. Staircases and doorways make wonderful defensive positions, we call them 'Fatal Funnels' in the Army.

NTM

Pretty poor chance that an ordinary joe soap would have the clarity of mind to execute something like that in practice. Most people's dials are tuned to flight rather than fight; it would be more likely that an individual would secure their loved ones, lock themselves in a room if possible and let the intruder have what he wants.

Ficheall · 24-06-2011 11:52PM

If I did decide to go for the flight option, I'd go up and hide in the attic and bring the ladders and phone up with me. They'd have a job getting to me then. Though, of course, all my stuff would be stolen, and I'd probably have to move out afterwards, as I wouldn't feel comfortable living in the house any more. It's not just the items stolen that one loses when one's property is invaded.

mcmoustache · 24-06-2011 11:53PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Most probably would not. The problem is that you have no way of knowing ahead of time if you are dealing with the 'most', or the 'few', and you are under no particular moral obligation to put yourself at any risk for their benefit pending that determination.

Spot on. You just can't make those kinds of judgements. You probably won't see anyone or hear them talk to each other.

Manic Moran wrote: »

From the tactical perspective, there is much to be said for launching the attack as opposed to waiting to see what develops. Even if the skill levels of the two are entirely the same, the psychological effect cannot be overstated. For example, most military bayonet charges were won or lost before the two sides ever made contact, there's a reason the 'war cry' was commonly used. If you have the initiative, and you are psychologically upsetting (Sorry, small 5' ladies, it won't work as well for you), it may well be safer for you to engage at a time and place of your chosing rather than waiting for the engagement to happen on the other guy's terms. For example, if you have a blind corner at the top of the staircase, it may well be worth taking the chance and knocking them back down the stairs as soon as they make it to the top, as opposed to hiding in the bathroom and hoping they don't see you. They will have all the time it takes to come back up the stairs again (probably in some pain) to consider if they really want to deal with whoever just knocked them down, and the act of knocking an unexpecting person down the stairs is such that it doesn't take much strength or skill. Staircases and doorways make wonderful defensive positions, we call them 'Fatal Funnels' in the Army.

NTM

Just like the movie 300

. It's true though. You can't get surrounded at the top of the stairs. You could probably make 3 fall down simply by knocking the first guy.

It's always good to hear the opinions of a trained professional here.
Thank you.

mcmoustache · 24-06-2011 11:59PM

Drake66 wrote: »

Pretty poor chance that an ordinary joe soap would have the clarity of mind to execute something like that in practice. Most people's dials are tuned to flight rather than fight; it would be more likely that an individual would secure their loved ones, lock themselves in a room if possible and let the intruder have what he wants.

You're fairly correct but I think that anyone who played competitive sports such as soccer/football/hurling/rugby or fighting sports would have the balls, for want of another word, to put up a good fight. Take a look at what happened the burglars who targeted Duncan Ferguson - he was mad though.

Drake66 · 25-06-2011 12:07AM

mcmoustache wrote: »

You're fairly correct but I think that anyone who played competitive sports such as soccer/football/hurling/rugby or fighting sports would have the balls, for want of another word, to put up a good fight. Take a look at what happened the burglars who targeted Duncan Ferguson - he was mad though.

Duncan Ferguson's dial was certainly set far to the fight option. He isn't someone you want to mess with! I know everyone thinks they are steven seagal on the internet, however the reality is far different when it comes to confrontations in a unknown circumstance. The old chestnut about the martial arts teacher turning up for his class with a black eye is pretty relevant; "how did you get the black eye mate? Oh I got mugged last night".

Richard Pryor said it best: Why get killed when you can run.

Mistyeyes321 · 25-06-2011 12:22AM

Just been announced on the Radio the guy who was arrested has been released on Bail..:)

Greentopia · 25-06-2011 12:26AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I honestly believe if somebody is posing a direct physical threat to my person or my property that at that moment I should be allowed to go as far as I need to to ensure that that person both stops being a threat then and cannot attempt it again.

Now im not saying that a bunch of opertunistic unarmed junkies should be killed trying to rob my tv , but they should be physically deterred , on the other hand If somebody shows up to my house with a weapon capable of killing me and is attempting to use it to harm or kill me then I should be , within full agreement of the law , allowed to kill that person, even if it means following them off my property with a weapon

Thank's for clarifying. The law would see nothing wrong in what you're saying there except for the 'following them off my property with a weapon' bit if you've already overpowered them with your weapon or whatever and they are fleeing.
Going after them with the express intent to kill them goes beyond the 'reasonable force' clause and would leave yourself open to criminal and/or civil charges being brought against you, but I guess you know that and would just take your chances with the law as Nally did.

I don't think it's the route we should be going down in this country. It's a slippery slope argument and would allow anyone to feel vindicated by law to think it's ok to kill any armed or unarmed burglar and pretty soon someone would feel justified in killing that unarmed junkie burglar who only wants to nick someones telly because they also broke into their house. It would lead to vigilante style violence.
That has no place in a civilised society as far as I'm concerned.

mcmoustache · 25-06-2011 12:28AM

Drake66 wrote: »

Richard Pryor said it best: Why get killed when you can run.

When you can run. But often you can't. I'd always go for the "run" option myself when I can but if you have a family to protect, that isn't always an option. Again, you don't know if they just want some jewellery or whether they want to take your family hostage while you empty your savings. I know that it sounds extreme but there's just no way to know.

As Manic Moran suggested, the top of the stairs make a good place for standing your ground and it's also a place where you can reasonably argue that you were only defending yourself should it get to court.

Greentopia · 25-06-2011 12:41AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Three Ss. Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

NTM

:eek:
Dear god. So much gung-ho machismo in this thread.
The way some of you are talking about what you'd do to intruders you'd swear half of you are trained Navy Seals or Gurkhas who'd have no problem taking on and overpowering burglars in your home :rolleyes:

You mentioned "in the army" Manic Moran so if you're in the U.S. army you may well have the training and skills to do so but the ordinary joes here? not so much.

Mistyeyes321 · 25-06-2011 12:45AM

Greentopia wrote: »

It could but the level of risk is not the same to your person if you run or hide that if you confront a (perhaps armed) burglar.

Of course there will be always the violent criminals who are not content with stealing and will injure or kill an occupant just for the hell of it if they're in the house at the time, but that's not what happens in most house robberies.
They just want to get in, rob the place, and leave without being disturbed or caught. It's happened to a friend of mine several times in the past few years here in Arklow. They just wanted her jewellry and DVD player and the teenagers who did it bought drink/drugs with their haul. Luckily she was never home when they broke in.

The only way it would definitely be more dangerous to flee your house is if you knew the intruder had accomplices waiting for him outside the front/back door, or if the thief gave chase after you out of your home wielding a knife or something!

If you lock yourself in the bedroom you'll be able to call the Guards (providing your phone is with you) and the intruder would have to break down the bedroom door to get in, so you could either get out your bedroom window if you're on the ground floor like I am, or be ready to attack or clobber the intruder with whatever weapon you have to hand in your bedroom when he enters.

Either way you'd be at more of an advantage than confronting someone who may be armed and dangerous-unless as I say you know for certain you'd have physical advantage, training over him.
The advice the Guards give is the same btw-run or hide if you can and call the Guards.

Just to illustrate my point, although circumstances are a little different:
A local shopkeeper here in Arklow, lovely guy, family man and former neighbour of mine was stabbed through the heart and killed last year when he confronted a guy who came in to rob his shop.

He'd been robbed several times before so I could understand his anger and frustration but the point is if he hadn't confronted him John Deasy would still be alive today. The guy who did it was caught btw and got mandatory life sentence plus 6 years for robbery. Irish Times article about it.

No point being a dead hero.

Great post, I do get what your saying & maybe as a women this would be my best option that is thinking rationally though!. I just know I wouldn't think rationally in this situation, My instict would be to Protect my Family full stop! I wasn't joking regarding the Tae Boxer btw I don't have any qualification's in this but I did train with a world champion Tae boxer for many years, I now train with his Son only once a week now due to age etc etc... Shop keeper Poor guy worked all his life has it all taken away from him & his poor Family! it's just not right!:( So the Scrote still got a Life & this poor bloke is dead because this Scrote wanted what was rightfully his! No sentence would ever make this right imho! I know what I would do!

Manic Moran · 25-06-2011 01:11AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Three Ss. Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

NTM

:eek:
Dear god. So much gung-ho machismo in this thread.
The way some of you are talking about what you'd do to intruders you'd swear half of you are trained Navy Seals or Gurkhas who'd have no problem taking on and overpowering burglars in your home :rolleyes:

Don't worry. It's a running gag in some places, I doubt people would truly advocate such a course of action against people. It more usually applies to that cat from three doors down which keeps digging up and eating your plants...

You mentioned "in the army" Manic Moran so if you're in the U.S. army you may well have the training and skills to do so but the ordinary joes here? not so much.

The skill set required is quite within the grasp of anyone who has taken two minutes to consider what he might do if a burglar happened. I'm trained on forced entry into an unknown situation as part of a four man stack against multiple, well armed defenders, which is a level of training not particularly required by a homeowner. The homeowner has most of the tactical advantages to begin with. He knows the layout of the house in the dark, he knows where to find objects close at hand to be used as a weapon, he will usually have the initiative, and he knows that he has the legal right to forcibly end the violation of his dwelling. Plus the burglar is as likely to be trained in unarmed combat as you are. (Though a good plan should assume he's better than you) And if, as I said, he has taken five minutes one day to just consider "what would happen if," then he has a serious advantage because unlike the burglar, he does not need to come up with a plan on the fly and under stress.

If you choose to be passive, then most of the benefits of your advantages are wasted. And, if you attack, then the fight or flight response is made by the burglar, not you.

NTM

Greentopia · 25-06-2011 01:31AM

Mistyeyes321 wrote: »

Great post, I do get what your saying & maybe as a women this would be my best option that is thinking rationally though!. I just know I wouldn't think rationally in this situation, My instict would be to Protect my Family full stop! I wasn't joking regarding the Tae Boxer btw I don't have any qualification's in this but I did train with a world champion Tae boxer for many years, I now train with his Son only once a week now due to age etc etc... Shop keeper Poor guy worked all his life has it all taken away from him & his poor Family! it's just not right!:( So the Scrote still got a Life & this poor bloke is dead because this Scrote wanted what was rightfully his! No sentence would ever make this right imho! I know what I would do!

I know it's easy to say here and now 'I'd do this, or that' but in the heat of the moment I'm not sure if I'd think rationally either, I'm just hoping I wouldn't freeze with terror and could act in the best way possible to ensure my safety.

Your training would probably give you some advantage but the problem is you don't know who you're coming up against in a situation like that or what they're capable of. Hopefully you'll never have to find out.

I do understand wanting to protect your family and the 'my home is my castle' idea, that's natural. I can only speak from my own point of view as a woman living alone.
We can all only do what we feel is best for us and ours within the boundaries of the law.

Yeah poor John. I was in tears when I heard. The scum that killed him left two young girls without a father.

I agree even life in prison doesn't seem like punishment enough but at least some justice has been done. No punishment will bring John back but at least that guy is safely locked away and he has to live with what he did for the rest of his life.

Mistyeyes321 · 25-06-2011 01:53AM

Greentopia wrote: »

I know it's easy to say here and now 'I'd do this, or that' but in the heat of the moment I'm not sure if I'd think rationally either, I'm just hoping I wouldn't freeze with terror and could act in the best way possible to ensure my safety.

Your training would probably give you some advantage but the problem is you don't know who you're coming up against in a situation like that or what they're capable of. Hopefully you'll never have to find out.

I do understand wanting to protect your family and the 'my home is my castle' idea, that's natural. I can only speak from my own point of view as a woman living alone.
We can all only do what we feel is best for us and ours within the boundaries of the law.

Yeah poor John. I was in tears when I heard. The scum that killed him left two young girls without a father.
I agree even life in prison doesn't seem like punishment enough but at least some justice has been done. No punishment will bring John back but at least that guy is safely locked away and he has to live with what he did for the rest of his life.

I know I wouldn't know what they was capable of another reason I couldn't take the chance of them hurting my Family!
The same could also be said they wouldn't know what I was capable off too. So that could work in my favour & of course as another poster said I would have the Advantage of it being my Home so I would know where everything is...I'm sure most people have something upstair's incase someone break's into their home I do it's not a Gun LOL...Must be abit scary being alone at times? We have a Neighbour who is in ill health & alone next to us I always tell her just bang on the wall if you need us anytime. In your case I Might Run too tbh....Stay safe..:)

Greentopia · 25-06-2011 01:57AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Don't worry. It's a running gag in some places, I doubt people would truly advocate such a course of action against people. It more usually applies to that cat from three doors down which keeps digging up and eating your plants...

Ah, right. I would hope not.

Poor kitteh, only wants some noms

:D
<---cat lover.

Manic Moran wrote: »

The skill set required is quite within the grasp of anyone who has taken two minutes to consider what he might do if a burglar happened. I'm trained on forced entry into an unknown situation as part of a four man stack against multiple, well armed defenders, which is a level of training not particularly required by a homeowner. The homeowner has most of the tactical advantages to begin with. He knows the layout of the house in the dark, he knows where to find objects close at hand to be used as a weapon, he will usually have the initiative, and he knows that he has the legal right to forcibly end the violation of his dwelling. Plus the burglar is as likely to be trained in unarmed combat as you are. (Though a good plan should assume he's better than you) And if, as I said, he has taken five minutes one day to just consider "what would happen if," then he has a serious advantage because unlike the burglar, he does not need to come up with a plan on the fly and under stress.

If you choose to be passive, then most of the benefits of your advantages are wasted. And, if you attack, then the fight or flight response is made by the burglar, not you.

NTM

Interesting, thank you. Never thought about it really before this thread but you're right of course, better to consider that "what if" and have some plan at least. Those few seconds or minutes not panicking and wondering what to do could make all the difference to the outcome of such an event in terms of my safety and well being should something like that ever happen.

Greentopia · 25-06-2011 02:11AM

Mistyeyes321 wrote: »

Must be abit scary being alone at times? We have a Neighbour who is in ill health & alone next to us I always tell her just bang on the wall if you need us anytime. In your case I Might Run too tbh....Stay safe..:)

Thank's.
I don't feel scared tbh. I live in an apartment complex behind a security gate with coded entry and CCTV, surrounded on all sides by neighbours so that helps

Scumbags in this town don't tend to venture down where I'm living anyway thankfully and long may that last.
My Mum lives on her own too (in another town) but she has good neighbours too and a personal alarm. Nice of you to think of your own neighbour. It means a lot to an older person to know there's someone there who looks out for them and cares.

Mistyeyes321 · 25-06-2011 03:11AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Thank's.
I don't feel scared tbh. I live in an apartment complex behind a security gate with coded entry and CCTV, surrounded on all sides by neighbours so that helps
Scumbags in this town don't tend to venture down where I'm living anyway thankfully and long may that last.
My Mum lives on her own too (in another town) but she has good neighbours too and a personal alarm. Nice of you to think of your own neighbour. It means a lot to an older person to know there's someone there who looks out for them and cares.

I know she's a lovely Lady her children have grown & mainly moved away now, One had to move for work...I know she misses her so much...I have CCTV & Monitored alarm & have pointed one of the camera's onto her front door & another on her back door! Every little bit helps! You take care & stay safe...:)

giles lynchwood · 25-06-2011 04:48AM

Hardened criminal's were once petty criminal's(if there is such a thing),they all start somewhere,head them off at the pass,i say.

Two month's ago in the Waterford circuit court the father of a boy up on burglery charge's,stated under oath that local drug dealer's had threatened to burn down their house over a 3000 euro debt owed by his son,he reported this to local Gardai and they advised him to pay up because they (garda) could not prevent this happening,so if local law enforcement cannot protect your home that leaves only one person ,you and the level used is up to you.

openside50 · 25-06-2011 10:53AM

awful position to be in - I was the victim of a burglary once where I was woken by my wife because of a noise she heard and went downstairs to see what was what when I heard it too - terrifying situation

I can categorically state that I would have been capable of anything even though this incident didnt lead to me physically confrontiong them, not because Im a hero but because I was bricking it and my reactions would have been extreme out of mere terror, the nearest I got btw was seeing one of their arses dissapearing out of my front room window that they had jemmied open

police were fantatsic by the way, there within about two minutes

AckwelFoley · 25-06-2011 11:07AM

someone breaks into my home.

I will kill them

JohnMarston · 27-06-2011 10:29AM

Tbh i hate the thought of hiding from someone who is intruding in my house. I have throwing knives and i know how to use them

CardBordWindow · 27-06-2011 10:50AM

JohnMarston wrote: »

Tbh i hate the thought of hiding from someone who is intruding in my house. I have throwing knives and i know how to use them

But how are you gonna get the intruders to play Modern Warfare with you?

Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

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