Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

Ficheall

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13885457

Apologies if this is already up somewhere, but I can't see it...

A burglar has been stabbed to death and the householder arrested on suspicion of murder after an attempted break-in at his house in Salford.
Four masked men attempted to get into a house in Ethel Avenue before midnight on Wednesday.
The stabbed man, 26, is believed to have been carried away by the other intruders as they fled, before being dumped in a street in Pendlebury.
Peter Flanagan, 57, son Neil, 29, and his son's girlfriend are being held.
The men and the 21-year-old woman are being questioned on suspicion of murder.
A 999 call was made from the house, during which the caller said four masked men were trying to break in.
Prime minister's vow Police said the stabbed man was found on Hospital Road and died a short time later.
Ch Supt Kevin Mulligan, who heads Greater Manchester Police's Salford division, said the man suffered "at least one stab wound" during an altercation in the house involving at least one person from the address and four people breaking in.
He said he could not comment further on the injuries or the cause of death until a post-mortem examination had been carried out.
He also refused to comment on whether the weapon had been taken into the property by the intruder or if it belonged to the householder.
The three people with the stabbed man at the time of the incident have yet to be traced, Mr Mulligan said. He urged them, or anyone who knows of their whereabouts, to contact Greater Manchester Police.
Prime Minister David Cameron this week vowed to bring in stronger measures to protect homeowners defending their property.
He said: "We will put beyond doubt that homeowners and small shopkeepers who use reasonable force to defend themselves or their properties will not be prosecuted."
When asked about whether householders should be able to defend themselves, Mr Mulligan said: "Within the existing legal framework, you can use reasonable force to protect yourself - the emphasis on reasonable."
"I don't see it as my position to speculate on possible legislation in the future," he added.
He urged people who thought they were being burgled to contact police.
Police have put up a 100m cordon around the terraced house in Pendlebury, which backs on to open scrubland.
Mr Mulligan said: "I can reassure the community that we will thoroughly investigate what happened last night and do not believe that members of the public are at risk.
"I would urge anyone who knows something to speak to officers from the major incident team and anyone else who has other concerns can speak to my officers, who will be providing an increased presence to provide the community with reassurance."

The householder should be given a medal.

Mint Sauce

They probably have to arrest in all cases, after all, someone was murdered.

After all the facts have been established s/he would either be released without charge, ie, they used reasonable force to protect them selfs/family, no further action taken. Or if more than reasonable force is is used, ie, if they stabbed them more times than was nesseseary, or excessivly, then charge and possible prosecutuion.

The Aussie

Where is the punch line to the joke???

Leeg17

The Aussie wrote: »

Where is the punch line to the joke???

Knife no idea.

kingtut

The Aussie wrote: »

Where is the punch line to the joke???

Where does it state that it is a joke

ballsymchugh

irish-stew wrote: »

They probably have to arrest in all cases, after all, someone was murdered.

After all the facts have been established s/he would either be released without charge, ie, they used reasonable force to protect them selfs/family, no further action taken. Or if more than reasonable force is is used, ie, if they stabbed them more times than was nesseseary, or excessivly, then charge and possible prosecutuion.

someone was killed. whether or not they were murdered has to be figured out.

hondasam

you would think his friends would have taken him to a hospital and not dumped him in the street.

There is probably more to this story.

Riskymove

ballsymchugh wrote: »

someone was killed. whether or not they were murdered has to be figured out.

someone was arrested on "suspicion of murder" so its a little bit further along than that

we do not have the automatic right to kill people, even those that are commiting a crime

Ficheall

irish-stew wrote: »

They probably have to arrest in all cases, after all, someone was murdered.

After all the facts have been established s/he would either be released without charge, ie, they used reasonable force to protect them selfs/family, no further action taken. Or if more than reasonable force is is used, ie, if they stabbed them more times than was nesseseary, or excessivly, then charge and possible prosecutuion.

Fair point, but I still don't know if it's the message to be sending out.
If you kill someone who breaks into your house, you will be arrested. If you break into someone's house along with three other men, the law's got your back.

JONJO THE MISER

Great news, if some skanger pond life tries to break into someones house, they deserve everything they get, tis a petty they didnt kill the other 3.

The Aussie

kingtut wrote: »

Where does it state that it is a joke

Four Burglers enter, Three Burglars Leave...

sollar

One less scumbag in salford

ballsymchugh

Riskymove wrote: »

someone was arrested on "suspicion of murder" so its a little bit further along than that

we do not have the automatic right to kill people, even those that are commiting a crime

true, but the right to self defense is important too. if some fella breaks into my home, goes to attack me and i stab him in the leg, that'd be self defense. if he's on blood thinning meds and bleeds to death down the road, does that make me guilty of murder??

The King of Moo

It's interesting that the police spokesman made a point of the dead man receiving "at least one" stab wound, suggesting that there may be more wounds than would constitute reasonable force.
If they stabbed him once or twice to incapacitate him, I don't think they should be prosecuted.
But if they stabbed him many times, they should be convicted. If a guy's been stabbed once or twice I'd imagine he wouldn't be much more of a threat, and there'd be no need to keep stabbing. And while I sympathise with people who suffer a break-in, burglary doesn't equate with murder.
However if it does turn out to be murder, I think they should get a reduced sentence given the circumstances.

looksee

I hope the arrest is a technicality. Four people break in - thats not an impulse action of someone after a few drinks or on drugs, that is a deliberately planned action and going in mob handed implies that they are prepared to defend themselves. They were up against an older man - who may or may not have been fit, a woman and a presumably fit young fellow. In those circumstances if I got a chance to discourage them I would not be working out where I could stab them to cause disablement but not death.

Unless there is something we are not being told, four people breaking into a house at night have no excuses - if they didn't want to be in danger they should not have been there.

TheZohanS

Four masked intruders?! You couldn't really argue against reasonable force being used if that's the case.

If he didn't incapacitate the intruder the intruder may have gotten up and caused the homeowner serious injury or death.

Ficheall

The King of Moo wrote: »

If a guy's been stabbed once or twice I'd imagine he wouldn't be much more of a threat, and there'd be no need to keep stabbing.

Only if you do a good job of stabbing him.

hondasam

hondasam wrote: »

you would think his friends would have taken him to a hospital and not dumped him in the street.

There is probably more to this story.

Probably afraid of questions and having to admit they were trying to rob a place

"what happened to your friend"
"he eh fell on a knife, repeatedly" "police!!!!"

polyfusion

The King of Moo wrote: »

It's interesting that the police spokesman made a point of the dead man receiving "at least one" stab wound, suggesting that there may be more wounds than would constitute reasonable force.
If they stabbed him once or twice to incapacitate him, I don't think they should be prosecuted.
But if they stabbed him many times, they should be convicted. If a guy's been stabbed once or twice I'd imagine he wouldn't be much more of a threat, and there'd be no need to keep stabbing. And while I sympathise with people who suffer a break-in, burglary doesn't equate with murder.
However if it does turn out to be murder, I think they should get a reduced sentence given the circumstances.

Unless any of us have been in that situation, I don't think we can imagine we'd know "when" is the time to stop using a knife when the welfare of your family or yourself are at risk.

Wibbs

looksee wrote: »

In those circumstances if I got a chance to discourage them I would not be working out where I could stab them to cause disablement but not death.

Exactly. Oft espoused by some among the more handwringing end of the liberal classes is the theory you can pick and chose how to defend yourself. You can't. When a knife or gun is involved the expectation is serious injury or death. That's what weapons do. Plus the chance that one stab wound will incapacitate an individual is unlikely too, unless you hit an artery in the neck for example. It depends on so many factors. A small stab wound to the belly for example could well leave an individual capable of causing further injury to you. Indeed in the heat of the moment he may not even notice until afterward. Hell people have taken small bore pistol strikes and kept going.

Unless there is something we are not being told, four people breaking into a house at night have no excuses - if they didn't want to be in danger they should not have been there.

+1 this was a clear home invasion unless other evidence is forthcoming. I know if I was faced with that and if I had the chance and the weapon, I'd not be striking to seriously inconvenience, but to incapacitate. If that resulted in an aggressors death at my hands, then so be it. And no that's not the keyboard talking. I've been in the position once before where I feared for my life and scrawny though I am the red mist descended.

hondasam

I think Four masked men attempting to rob a house is a bit odd unless the house is out of the ordinary with very rich people living there.
Maybe the masked men were looking for someone in the house.

SEPT 23 1989

I would say he got a round of applause in the station

hondasam

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I would say he got a round of applause in the station

why would you think that.

Lustrum

Has John Nally moved to England by any chance??

EL_Loco

that's a sell up and move job, you'd be always waiting for the other 3 to return for revenge.

sounds like he did all he had to, let them retreat, didn't follow up with attacking them.

The Aussie

EL_Loco wrote: »

you'd be always waiting for the other 3 to return for revenge.

By the way they ran the first time round, i dont think they will be back for seconds...

Ficheall

Lustrum wrote: »

Has John Nally moved to England by any chance??

Nope, he's still knocking around - and understandably constantly worried about retribution. The Gardai haven't even given him back his gun.
There's even a facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=134692763233785 , which, poorly written and justified though it may be, nevertheless carries a reasonable message.

ball

If it was self defense, as in, he was protecting his own life by stabbing the burglar, then fair enough, he did the right thing.
If he stabbed him out rage when he saw the guy looking through his things, then it's murder.

Just because the burglar was committing a crime, doesn't mean the householder can kill him and walk away without any punishment.

Soups123

fair play to him, only did what most would

Riskymove

ballsymchugh wrote: »

true, but the right to self defense is important too. if some fella breaks into my home, goes to attack me and i stab him in the leg, that'd be self defense. if he's on blood thinning meds and bleeds to death down the road, does that make me guilty of murder??

well I did say "automatic" right

what if you stabbed him once and then he tried to run away but you went after him and kept stabbing all the way down the street??

amacachi

Just because someone's been arrested on suspicion of murder doesn't mean there's been a murder. UK system is different to ours.

Hopefully he walks out anyway. Will there be B+E charges for the other 3?

Dacelonid

Riskymove wrote: »

someone was arrested on "suspicion of murder" so its a little bit further along than that

we do not have the automatic right to kill people, even those that are commiting a crime

True enough, but the other side to that coin is, those who are commiting a crime should not expect to be protected by the law

AudreyHepburn

I am all for protecting yourself and your property, but equally I don't believe in killing indiscriminatly either.

If the intruder does not actually threaten you with violence I see no reason to attack him.

If you are threatened I feel you should try to subdue the intruder without killing him/her if you can help it.

amacachi

ball wrote: »

If it was self defense, as in, he was protecting his own life by stabbing the burglar, then fair enough, he did the right thing.
If he stabbed him out rage when he saw the guy looking through his things, then it's murder.

I disagree as it happens and I'm sure some others do.

Ficheall

ball wrote: »

If it was self defense, as in, he was protecting his own life by stabbing the burglar, then fair enough, he did the right thing.

Suppose your son and his gf are staying in your house, and four masked men break into your home, ostensibly to rob some stuff.
What would you do in the situation? Just curious...

ball wrote: »

If he stabbed him out rage when he saw the guy looking through his things, then it's murder.

Not manslaughter?

ball wrote: »

Just because the burglar was committing a crime, doesn't mean the householder can kill him and walk away without any punishment.

You think it's fairer that the burglar walks away with some swag but no punishment? Because that's what would happen, more thank likely. Assuming the householder is lucky enough not to be killed.

mikom

Lustrum wrote: »

Has John Nally moved to England by any chance??

Padraig.
You know, the lad who looks like Tom baker............... http://www.doctorwho1.com/pics_pictures/doctor_who_tom_baker.jpg

mconigol

Well I don't know about you guys but I tend to walk around my house blindfolded randomly swinging a carving knife around when I'm bored so I could see how this might happen....accidentally of course!

amacachi

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you are threatened I feel you should try to subdue the intruder without killing him/her if you can help it.

So simple isn't it?

Ficheall

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I am all for protecting yourself and your property, but equally I don't believe in killing indiscriminatly either.

It's not indiscriminate, ffs.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you are threatened I feel you should try to subdue the intruder without killing him/her if you can help it.

How would you go about subduing four masked men who broke into your house then?

polyfusion

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If the intruder does not actually threaten you with violence I see no reason to attack him.

I can just imagine the Two Ronnies doing a sketch of this.

seanybiker

Would it not be manslaughter at most since he didnt stay in his house with intent for someone to break in and kill them.


he should get a blue peter badge and a cape.

amacachi

Ficheall wrote: »

Suppose your son and his gf are staying in your house, and four masked men break into your home, ostensibly to rob some stuff.
What would you do in the situation? Just curious...

Obviously what you do is you restrain them until the cops come without hurting them in any way. Very simple.

AudreyHepburn

amacachi wrote: »

So simple isn't it?

There is no need to be dismissive.

Ficheall wrote: »

It's not indiscriminate, ffs.


How would you go about subduing four masked men who broke into your house then?

We don't know what it was to be fair.

I was making the point that we don't, and shouldn't, automatically have the right to kill intruders.

If you have to subdue some-one why not knock them, shoot them in a limb etc. I don't believe you should kill unless it is a you or them situation.

amacachi

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

There is no need to be dismissive.

In this case yes, there is.

mconigol

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I am all for protecting yourself and your property, but equally I don't believe in killing indiscriminatly either.

If the intruder does not actually threaten you with violence I see no reason to attack him.

If you are threatened I feel you should try to subdue the intruder without killing him/her if you can help it.

So it's fine with you for somebody to walk in off the street and make off with all your stuff as long as they don't threaten you? What's your address by the way..?!

The act of someone breaking into your house alone is enough to indicate a potential threat.

amacachi

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you have to subdue some-one why not knock them, shoot them in a limb etc. I don't believe you should kill unless it is a you or them situation.

Knock them? What does that mean? Shoot them in a limb so they bleed out? With the type of people who break into houses the only way you know you're safe is when they stop moving.

YFlyer

Ficheall wrote: »

Nope, he's still knocking around - and understandably constantly worried about retribution. The Gardai haven't even given him back his gun.
There's even a facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=134692763233785 , which, poorly written and justified though it may be, nevertheless carries a reasonable message.

That facebook page does not help his cause at all.

The King of Moo

polyfusion wrote: »

Unless any of us have been in that situation, I don't think we can imagine we'd know "when" is the time to stop using a knife when the welfare of your family or yourself are at risk.

That's true, though in some cases the intruder may be clearly incapacitated after a stab or two and if he died from that I don't think the homeowners should be prosecuted.
And our emotions would certainly get the better of us, so it's difficult to determine reasonable force, taking into account the mental state of the person being burgled at that moment. Someone certainly could get carried away and stab someone a number of times without thinking of the consequences, while others might know exactly what they're doing, especially after a number of strikes.
That's why in some ways I'd be more understanding of someone shooting an intruder than someone stabbing an intruder multiple times. An one-off shot, even if it's lethal, might be a more unconscious action than stabbing someone repeatedly (just want to point out that I'm not saying that's definitely what happened in this case). Stabbing is also more tactile and immediate than shooting someone which makes it less difficult to be aware of what you're doing and its effects than when you shoot someone in a moment panic or adrenaline.
I don't know, cases like this always make me conflicted. I understand defending your own home, but sometimes the reaction might be excessive, and the end result of very liberal legislation in favour of homeowners could be a dog-eat-dog world. Determining reasonable force while also accounting for the owner's mental state is the way to go, but it's very difficult to do.

AudreyHepburn

amacachi wrote: »

Knock them? What does that mean? Shoot them in a limb so they bleed out? With the type of people who break into houses the only way you know you're safe is when they stop moving.

Knock them out I meant, as I think you know.

I agree you stop them moving BUT that does not equal killing them in my book.

amacachi

The King of Moo wrote: »

That's true, though in some cases the intruder may be clearly incapacitated after a stab or two and if he died from that I don't think the homeowners should be prosecuted.

If you stab someone until they're incapacitated there's not many ways to do that that wouldn't involve them bleeding out in minutes or cutting their tendons etc.

amacachi

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Knock them out I meant, as I think you know.

I agree you stop them moving BUT that does not equal killing them in my book.

Again, it's very easy isn't it?