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Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,242 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    this story is shameful













    he should have killed all 4 of them


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rubik.


    The Uk Government produced a leaflet in 2005 - "Householders and the use of force agains intruders.

    What is 'reasonable force' and does the law protect you?

    Anyone can use 'reasonable force' to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent a crime. You are not expected to make fine judgements over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in self-defence. This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon.
    As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence.

    What if you chase intruders as they run off?

    This situation is different as you are no longer acting in self-defence and so the same degree of force may not be reasonable. However, you are still allowed to use reasonable force to recover your property and make a citizen's arrest. You should consider your own safety and, for example, whether the police have been called. A rugby tackle or a single blow would probably be reasonable. Acting out of malice and revenge with the intent of inflicting punishment through injury or death would not.

    Will the police believe the intruder rather than you?

    The police weigh all the facts when investigating an incident. This includes the fact that the intruder caused the situation to arise in the first place. The police have a duty to investigate incidents involving a death or injury. Things are not always as they seem - for example, on occasions people pretend a burglary has taken place to cover up other crimes, such as a fight between drug dealers.

    Do you have to wait to be attacked?

    You do not have to wait to be attacked before defending yourself if you are in your own home and in fear for yourself or others. In those circumstances the law does not require you to wait to be attacked before using defensive force yourself.

    What if the intruder dies?

    If you have acted in reasonable self-defence, as described above, and the intruder dies, you will still have acted lawfully. Indeed, there have been several such cases where the householder has not been prosecuted.
    However, if, for example:
    • having knocked someone unconscious, you then decided to further hurt or kill them to punish them
    or
    • you know of an intended intruder and set a trap to hurt or to kill them rather than involve the police
    then you would be acting with very excessive and gratuitous force and could be prosecuted.

    How would the police and CPS handle the investigation?

    In considering these cases Chief Constables and Director of Public Prosecutions (Head of the CPS) are determined that they must be investigated and reviewed as quickly and as sympathetically as possible. In some cases, for instance where the facts are very clear, or where less serious injuries are involved, the investigation will be concluded very quickly, without any real need for arrest. In more complicated cases, such as where a death or serious injury occurs, more detailed enquiries will be necessary. The police may need to conduct a forensic examination and/or obtain your account of events.
    To ensure such cases are dealt with as swiftly and sympathetically as possible, the police and CPS take special measures, namely:
    • an experienced investigator will oversee the case
    and
    • if it goes as far as CPS considering the evidence, the case will be prioritised to ensure a senior lawyer makes a quick decision
    It is a fact that very few householders have ever been prosecuted for actions resulting from the use of force against intruders.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Riskymove wrote: »
    someone was arrested on "suspicion of murder" so its a little bit further along than that

    we do not have the automatic right to kill people, even those that are commiting a crime

    More's the pity. As someone already said - one less to worry about in Salford.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,242 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Raiser wrote: »
    At least we know that in Ireland you can follow an attempted Burglar out of your House and down the way while shooting them in the back multiple times and still walk free......
    if only
    Riskymove wrote: »
    someone was arrested on "suspicion of murder" so its a little bit further along than that

    we do not have the automatic right to kill people, even those that are commiting a crime

    and thats one of the saddest things about our society today , if we did - it wouldnt be a murder rampage, crime rates would just be lower, criminals dont feel threatened by our justice system , everyone feels threatened by a 12 gauge


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭Greentopia


    if only

    So you're ok with people taking the law into their own hands and turning vigilante? You'd be judge, jury and executioner on anyone attempting to burgle your house and think it's ok to follow them outside and shoot them in the back?
    Is that really what's you're saying?!

    And you think it's "sad" that we don't have automatic right to kill people who are committing a crime? seriously? :eek:


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  • Posts: 6,321 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Greentopia wrote: »
    So you're ok with people taking the law into their own hands and turning vigilante? You'd be judge, jury and executioner on anyone attempting to burgle your house and think it's ok to follow them outside and shoot them in the back?
    Is that really what's you're saying?!

    And you think it's "sad" that we don't have automatic right to kill people who are committing a crime? seriously? :eek:

    Bit of a jump from vigilantism to defending your home. I wouldnt be a vigilante, but I would fight to the death to protect my family and home.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I think it is important to differentiate the types of people who might break into a home;

    In mine own area we have had cases where the thieves have been no more than young teenagers after cash and nothing else. The homeowners were not in any danger and the thieves scarpered as soon as they realised there were people in the house.

    In such cases I think using physical violence would not be remotely necessary. These thieves are practically children and are not out to hurt anyone.

    At the other end of the scale you have what we call Tiger Kidnappers, who hold people captive at knife/gunpoint and in these types of cases I do think you should be able to defend yourself.

    I do not believe we should be allowed to kill intruders indiscriminatly. Teenagers after cash are in a completely different league to armed gangs to be fair.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    People have every right to protect themselfs & their Family, If someone break's into my home you better believe I will fight to the death. Sound's extreme maybe but being faced with four guy's ballied up what other choice is there. Do we instead say Ohh Hello Want A CuP OF Tea while you rob me blind!! Why do some people still try & make excuses up for these Scrot's!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭Greentopia


    Jake1 wrote: »
    Bit of a jump from vigilantism to defending your home. I wouldnt be a vigilante, but I would fight to the death to protect my family and home.

    The definition includes "a self-appointed doer of justice" as well as a volunteer committee set up to suppress and punish crime, according to Merriam-Webster. That was the definition I was applying to him. He advocates taking the law into his own hands and going way beyond what the law currently allows.


  • Posts: 6,321 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think it is important to differentiate the types of people who might break into a home;

    In mine own area we have had cases where the thieves have been no more than young teenagers after cash and nothing else. The homeowners were not in any danger and the thieves scarpered as soon as they realised there were people in the house.

    In such cases I think using physical violence would not be remotely necessary. These thieves are practically children and are not out to hurt anyone.

    At the other end of the scale you have what we call Tiger Kidnappers, who hold people captive at knife/gunpoint and in these types of cases I do think you should be able to defend yourself.

    I do not believe we should be allowed to kill intruders indiscriminatly. Teenagers after cash are in a completely different league to armed gangs to be fair.


    No offence Audrey, but teenagers can be capable of despicable crimes too while breaking and entering,
    check out this story.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/teenagers-jailed-for-disgusting-torture-of-family-678845.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Jake1 wrote: »
    No offence Audrey, but teenagers can be capable of despicable crimes too while breaking and entering,
    check out this story.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/teenagers-jailed-for-disgusting-torture-of-family-678845.html

    I am aware of that.

    But that does not mean we should assume every teenage thief who breaks into a home is doing so with the express purpose of torturing the occupants, most would not even in consider it I would imagine.

    Obviously in the above case, of course you can defend yourself. But if you disturb a young lad/girl who is only after your cash and they run I see no reason to go after them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭Greentopia


    People have every right to protect themselfs & their Family, If someone break's into my home you better believe I will fight to the death. Sound's extreme maybe but being faced with four guy's ballied up what other choice is there. Do we instead say Ohh Hello Want A CuP OF Tea while you rob me blind!! Why do some people still try & make excuses up for these Scrot's!

    Only problem is it could be your death if you confront an intruder(s) armed with a weapon if you had the option to leave the house or lock yourself in your bedroom and call the Guards instead. Unless you're a martial arts edit-with weapons training!-expert of course!

    And you're presenting a false dichotomy with the 'do we offer them a cup of tea' or else 'fight to the death' statement. There are usually other more reasonable options, as I've already stated.
    The only way a 'fight to the death' scenario would be the reasonable and within the law is if you or your loved ones were being physically attacked by them and you were fighting for your/their life.

    We're allowed to use "reasonable force" to protect ourselves, no more.

    And I'm not making up any excuses for scrotes. Anyone who breaks into someones house should be punished by law and given a custodial sentence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    I am aware of that.

    But that does not mean we should assume every teenage thief who breaks into a home is doing so with the express purpose of torturing the occupants, most would not even in consider it I would imagine.

    Obviously in the above case, of course you can defend yourself. But if you disturb a young lad/girl who is only after your cash and they run I see no reason to go after them.
    Hi Audrey,:D The thing is if we found ourselfs in this situation it's quite clear what the intention is of the person/person's breaking into your home....To take what is rightfully your's I don't care if its for Money or anything else..If faced with someone like this you will react to this situation straight away, There wouldn't be any time to decide what kind of Thief they are! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 260 ✭✭sparks24


    thank god he used a knife at least then you don't have to reload!

    hope the fecker burns


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Hi Audrey,:D The thing is if we found ourselfs in this situation it's quite clear what the intention is of the person/person's breaking into your home....To take what is rightfully your's I don't care if its for Money or anything else..If faced with someone like this you will react to this situation straight away, There wouldn't be any time to decide what kind of Thief they are! :)

    Of course you would react, no doubt about it. But does that reaction really have to be killing the intruder on the spot? What if the intruder is unarmed? Do you still kill him/her? Turning yourself into a criminal in the process?

    I'm sorry but to me no criminal is worth going to prison over.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    Greentopia wrote: »
    Only problem is it could be your death if you confront an intruder(s) armed with a weapon if you had the option to leave the house or lock yourself in your bedroom and call the Guards instead. Unless you're a martial arts expert of course!

    And you're presenting a false dichotomy with the 'do we offer them a cup of tea' or else 'fight to the death' statement. There are usually other more reasonable options, as I've already stated.
    The only way a 'fight to the death' scenario would be the reasonable and within the law is if you or your loved ones were being physically attacked by them and you were fighting for your/their life.

    We're allowed to use "reasonable force" to protect ourselves, no more.

    And I'm not making up any excuses for scrotes. Anyone who breaks into someones house should be punished by law and given a custodial sentence.
    Well i'm no expert in Martial Art's although I have trained with a world class Tae boxer for a few years...Yeah it could be my death it could also be my death if I run & hide in a bedroom or run out of the house the very same could apply! So I would have to wait until one of my loved ones or myself was attacked before I retaliate?! Reasonable someone coming into my home to steal or worse & i'm supposed to be reasonable?! I don't think so, The minute these scrot's dedide to try & steal anything from my home I will fight them all the way no question in my mind I would defend what is mine! I don't care what the Law say's is reasonable they won't be there facing these scrot's with me so it would be down to me to do what I needed too..:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    Of course you would react, no doubt about it. But does that reaction really have to be killing the intruder on the spot? What if the intruder is unarmed? Do you still kill him/her? Turning yourself into a criminal in the process?

    I'm sorry but to me no criminal is worth going to prison over.
    Yeah I know what your saying but like I said we wouldn't know if they was armed or not, I'm not taking no chances with my family Audrey no way no how.!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Yeah I know what your saying but like I said we wouldn't know if they was armed or not, I'm not taking no chances with my family Audrey no way no how.!

    Nor would I Misty.

    But I equally would not presume to automatically have the right to kill another person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    Nor would I Misty.

    But I equally would not presume to automatically have the right to kill another person.
    Thing is I would defend myself & family & would do whatever that took to keep them safe! I haven't created this situation these people have! They have come into my home the place I feel safe, The place my children feel safe & just because they want a fix isn't my problem, They are responsible for their own action's! If it came to it I would do them before they got a chance to do harm to mine!.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Thing is I would defend myself & family & would do whatever that took to keep them safe! I haven't created this situation these people have! They have come into my home the place I feel safe, The place my children feel safe & just because they want a fix isn't my problem, They are responsible for their own action's! If it came to it I would do them before they got a chance to do harm to mine!.

    Like I said so would, if I thought my family was in serious danger.

    But I'm not going to blow away kids only after cash or the guy with nothing but his hand through my window either.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,816 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Our homes are suppost to be a place where our families should be able to feel safe at all times, i have no sympathy for any uninvited scumbag that enters anyones home and compromises that sense of security.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Dead burglar ?

    my heart bleeds...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    Like I said so would, if I thought my family was in serious danger.

    But I'm not going to blow away kids only after cash or the guy with nothing but his hand through my window either.
    How would you know your Family was in danger?! Anyone coming into my home without permission is a intruder I haven't got time to asses or even ask them are you armed? I have to assume the worst!


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,242 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Getting arrested for murdering one burglar, feck it, I would have done them all at that rate. The real question is, if you were going to get arrested for murder, even with the make my day law here in Ireland after Nally, how would ye kill them?

    If my family were under threat, I think a nice blade of some sort would do the trick. Make anyone else nervous of trying to rob me again when I get released.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭giles lynchwood


    hondasam wrote: »
    you would think his friends would have taken him to a hospital and not dumped him in the street.

    There is probably more to this story.
    Honour among thieve's is a myth.
    A couple of year's ago fox news played a 911 recording from somewhere in Texas and it went like this.
    Operator, Hello 911 how may i help you.
    Caller,i have just seen 2 men enter my neighbour's house through the front window,gives address.
    Operator,Sir a patrol car has been despatched and will be there in 3 min,can you describe the men.
    Caller,wait one of them has climbed back out the window,they got my neighbour's tv,i am going out.At this point you hear the phone being put down
    Operator,sir stay inside, a patrol car has been despatched and will be there in one minute,sir,sir,sir stay inside please,sir,sir,do not go outside,i repeat do not go outside,sir.
    BANG,BANG,you can clearly hear a shotgun being discharged twice in the backround .
    Bottom line he shot and killed the two intruder's,on his neighbour's front lawn,he was arrested and charged with murder,brought to trial aqquited and praised by the Judge.

    You Decide
    Me i think he did the right thing.

    A man's home is his castle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,242 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Greentopia wrote: »
    So you're ok with people taking the law into their own hands and turning vigilante? You'd be judge, jury and executioner on anyone attempting to burgle your house and think it's ok to follow them outside and shoot them in the back?
    Is that really what's you're saying?!

    And you think it's "sad" that we don't have automatic right to kill people who are committing a crime? seriously? :eek:

    I honestly believe if somebody is posing a direct physical threat to my person or my property that at that moment I should be allowed to go as far as I need to to ensure that that person both stops being a threat then and cannot attempt it again.

    Now im not saying that a bunch of opertunistic unarmed junkies should be killed trying to rob my tv , but they should be physically deterred , on the other hand If somebody shows up to my house with a weapon capable of killing me and is attempting to use it to harm or kill me then I should be , within full agreement of the law , allowed to kill that person, even if it means following them off my property with a weapon


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 31,696 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I said earlier in the thread that the four men breaking into a house at night were taking a chance and if the householder felt threatened then he was entitled to defend his home and family.

    However I do not feel that shooting people outside a neighbour's house as they make off with the television is reasonable. There were way too many possibilities of being wrong about what they were doing, and they were not threatening anyone. Let the police take care of it, get the license number of the car, take a photograph, but shooting under those circumstances is not appropriate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 804 ✭✭✭round tower huntsman


    if you break into someones house you leave your human rights at the door. if you want enter a mans family home to rob him you should have no legal protection,your fair game.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,900 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Bottom line he shot and killed the two intruder's,on his neighbour's front lawn,he was arrested and charged with murder,brought to trial aqquited and praised by the Judge.

    You're thinking of Joe Horn. They were on his lawn when they were shot. He was never charged or brought to trial as the Grand Jury decided not to indict.
    But that does not mean we should assume every teenage thief who breaks into a home is doing so with the express purpose of torturing the occupants, most would not even in consider it I would imagine.

    Most probably would not. The problem is that you have no way of knowing ahead of time if you are dealing with the 'most', or the 'few', and you are under no particular moral obligation to put yourself at any risk for their benefit pending that determination.
    Well i'm no expert in Martial Art's although I have trained with a world class Tae boxer for a few years...Yeah it could be my death it could also be my death if I run & hide in a bedroom or run out of the house the very same could apply! So I would have to wait until one of my loved ones or myself was attacked before I retaliate?!

    From the tactical perspective, there is much to be said for launching the attack as opposed to waiting to see what develops. Even if the skill levels of the two are entirely the same, the psychological effect cannot be overstated. For example, most military bayonet charges were won or lost before the two sides ever made contact, there's a reason the 'war cry' was commonly used. If you have the initiative, and you are psychologically upsetting (Sorry, small 5' ladies, it won't work as well for you), it may well be safer for you to engage at a time and place of your chosing rather than waiting for the engagement to happen on the other guy's terms. For example, if you have a blind corner at the top of the staircase, it may well be worth taking the chance and knocking them back down the stairs as soon as they make it to the top, as opposed to hiding in the bathroom and hoping they don't see you. They will have all the time it takes to come back up the stairs again (probably in some pain) to consider if they really want to deal with whoever just knocked them down, and the act of knocking an unexpecting person down the stairs is such that it doesn't take much strength or skill. Staircases and doorways make wonderful defensive positions, we call them 'Fatal Funnels' in the Army.

    NTM


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    So what we take from this is that when we kill someone who trespasses on our property, instead of informing the guards, we instead dispose of the body?


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