Why have children now got so many conditions ?

flutterflye · 20-06-2011 08:20PM

I blame American psychiatry.
They are way way too quick to diagnose over there.
Every second person over there has some sort of condition, disorder, or mental illness.

I know for a fact that this is not the case here - The complete opposite infact.
They are very stingey in giving an official clinical diagnosis here.

The most common route is to use a multi-disciplinary team from varying professions in the assessment process.
It is an ongoing process, which can take up to a year before a diagnosis is given.

A year of all sorts of different physical tests, cognitive tests, emotional tests, medical tests, questionnaires, observations in various settings, detailed history note taking, dietary alterations, behaviour monitoring and modification techniques, meetings and discussions with the patient, family members, teacher, doctor etc...

Throughout this process, parents go to parenting classes run by the clinic, as well as group conferences, weekly/bi-weekly 'homework' around managing different areas of difficulties in the home or with the child, and many many one to one sessions with a member of the team, who give support and practical advise.

Concurrently, the child attends social groups set up by the clinic, one to one with different team members, classes with team members and parents, and weekly/bi-weekly homework regarding behaviour or problem areas.

And when it is mutually concluded that the child does infact fall under a particular spectrum, and/or has specific comorbidities, they are likely to word reports with great caution.
I have heard of a ridiculous amount of reports being phrased in such a way that they go above and beyond to avoid definitive statements such as 'Tom has autism", instead using phrases such as "Tom has traits of autism" - When in fact, they themselves are decidedly certain that Tom has autism.

Anyway, I actually am in awe of the amount of people who believe that to diagnose a condition or disorder, all that psychiatrists do is to tick off a check list of symptoms!

So many impassioned, self righteous and judgmental viewpoints, all devoid of substance, evidence, experience, or knowledge.
The ignorance is actually comical!

Chuchoter · 20-06-2011 09:10PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Have you ever been to a psychologist?

Because if you have you went to a **** one.

Yes, but not for a learning disability. And if she was accepted as qualified by whoever it is that manages these things, I maintain my doubts.

cassid · 20-06-2011 11:59PM

I have a child with a “disorder”. He is very polite, very well behaved, caring, intelligent, not a great eater but when he does eat it’s healthy & nutritious, so not all children who have a disorder fit the stereo type that some posters refer to in earlier posts.
My son has always been under the care of a multi disciplinary team. He was born very preterm, suffered a serious bleed on the brain, that resolved then he caught an infection in his brain when he was only weeks old, that left him with epilepsy. It’s a combination of all of the above that has lead to his diagnoses, but it took several months of observation from different teams under the supervision of his consultant paediatrician who has looked all his life, well he is only 4.:D
It’s imperative for my son to get his diagnoses so he can get access to the necessary therapies he needs. He does not know he has a disorder and I won’t be telling him for a long time nor will I allow it to excuse bad behaviour. My life has changed since having him, we attend hospital every week for different therapies and we have to do a lot of OT & Physio at home as well as specific programmes. I don’t see him as this disorder, I don’t label him, but its part of who he is. I am just happy he did not died when younger and survived and he is getting the support and care he needs so he can live a happy “normal” life.

NIMAN · 21-06-2011 03:56AM

MrsD007 wrote: »

As someone who has worked on a voluntary basis with children with autism, Aspergers and ADHD, I find it very hard to believe that the OP has any real understanding of the conditions he has referred to, if he did he would realise how truly disgusting it is to describe a child with special needs as being "useless, plain bad, stupid or evil". I doubt OP that you would use these terms to describe a child with Downs Syndrome. Just because a disability isn't obvious from the outside, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I feel part of the problem in this country is that some ignorant people use labels incorrectly and inappropriately, we all have heard people in supermarkets describing a child has having ADHD because they have a tantrum and people saying they suffer from depression when they are just a bit down.

OP, I feel your description of children with special needs is very upsetting and insulting to the many parents and carers who spend their lives looking after children with some serious challenges.

Downs was not mentioned, or even considered, as being the same as some of the other conditions I had in mind when starting this thread.

I did not use the term 'special needs' as it is normally associated with a certain type of illness here in Ireland, and imho did not apply to the 'conditions' I had in mind.

Did you watch the piece from RTE Player that initiated this thread? The guy to me has nothing wrong with him, he is probably just overly shy. Thats why he finds it hard to mix with people, make new friends etc. He doesn't have to have a disease, shyness is the answer. I knew plenty of children like that growing up, and know some adults like that too even now. If you know a grown man in his 40s who lives with his parents, has never dated anyone, doesn't go to clubs or pubs, sits at home watching DVDs or reading, does that person have Aspergers or are they just shy and introverted? This is the whole point to my initial question. For me the guy in the clip is like this, sweet FA wrong with him.

flutterflye · 21-06-2011 04:59AM

NIMAN wrote: »

Downs was not mentioned, or even considered, as being the same as some of the other conditions I had in mind when starting this thread.

I did not use the term 'special needs' as it is normally associated with a certain type of illness here in Ireland, and imho did not apply to the 'conditions' I had in mind.

Did you watch the piece from RTE Player that initiated this thread? The guy to me has nothing wrong with him, he is probably just overly shy. Thats why he finds it hard to mix with people, make new friends etc. He doesn't have to have a disease, shyness is the answer. I knew plenty of children like that growing up, and know some adults like that too even now. If you know a grown man in his 40s who lives with his parents, has never dated anyone, doesn't go to clubs or pubs, sits at home watching DVDs or reading, does that person have Aspergers or are they just shy and introverted? This is the whole point to my initial question. For me the guy in the clip is like this, sweet FA wrong with him.

Aspergers is not a disease.

Instead of basing your opinion on a short clip on RTE player, you could perhaps study the matter in greater depth, considering research, and opposing viewpoints with a more open mind?

You simply cannot base such a controversial argument on a potentially emotive issue, on ideas that have magicked inside your head from watching one short clip on the internet!

Oh and, Aspergers has nothing whatsoever to do with shyness!

Go read a book or two before coming back!

guitarzero · 21-06-2011 05:16AM

I'm gonna guess cuz the world we live in is so fúcked up.

Twee. · 21-06-2011 05:20AM

Wow, I hope none of the "non-believers" on this thread ever have kids with genuine ADD or ADHD.

Kids with ADD and ADHD don't want to be "bold". They can't help themselves. As I've mentioned before my mother was heavily involved with a support group that helped parents with ADD/ADHD/Tourettes. Parents who didn't know what to do, who needed to vent, who needed advice. The phone line was open every day, she often talked for hours with the same people, letting them know it was going to be ok. This is going back 17 years, so it's not like these conditions are new.

Two members of my family had varying degrees of the conditions I mentioned above. One is now in college, with an A grade average, the other has a Ordinary and Bachelors degree under his belt, fluent in Spanish and works for a new media company. They had supportive parents who helped them get through school and college, and they, as extremely smart individuals who needed some guidance, are achieving their potential.

As I said, I hope none of the non believers have kids with ADD/ADHD. Poor kids.

Soswozere · 21-06-2011 06:02AM

Those people here who think learning disabilities are excuses for laziness and bad behaviour are very fortunate to be so naive that they cannot imagine the suffering of others. I haven't read such pathetic, feeble-minded, weak arguments since reading Mein Kampf.
I admire those others that try to reason with such ignorance. To make such accusations about learning disabilities would suggest that these people have no experience of dealing with the sufferers, who dearly want to learn how to learn, how to get on with life as easily as we do.

iamwhoiam · 21-06-2011 07:52AM

Twee. wrote: »

Wow, I hope none of the "non-believers" on this thread ever have kids with genuine ADD or ADHD.

Kids with ADD and ADHD don't want to be "bold". They can't help themselves. As I've mentioned before my mother was heavily involved with a support group that helped parents with ADD/ADHD/Tourettes. Parents who didn't know what to do, who needed to vent, who needed advice. The phone line was open every day, she often talked for hours with the same people, letting them know it was going to be ok. This is going back 17 years, so it's not like these conditions are new.

Two members of my family had varying degrees of the conditions I mentioned above. One is now in college, with an A grade average, the other has a Ordinary and Bachelors degree under his belt, fluent in Spanish and works for a new media company. They had supportive parents who helped them get through school and college, and they, as extremely smart individuals who needed some guidance, are achieving their potential.

As I said, I hope none of the non believers have kids with ADD/ADHD. Poor kids.

I think it very fair for some posters to doubt some cases .Of course there are very genuine cases and of course there are many who find it a struggle .But there are also kids who simply need good parenting and a bit of discipline and in fact these kids are diluting the available help for those who need it . There are kids in every class in every school who take up so much resources becasue the parents simply havent done their job properly .These resources could be channeled to those genuine kids who need it ,

Android 666 · 21-06-2011 09:18AM

NIMAN wrote: »

Did you watch the piece from RTE Player that initiated this thread? The guy to me has nothing wrong with him, he is probably just overly shy. Thats why he finds it hard to mix with people, make new friends etc. He doesn't have to have a disease, shyness is the answer. I knew plenty of children like that growing up, and know some adults like that too even now. If you know a grown man in his 40s who lives with his parents, has never dated anyone, doesn't go to clubs or pubs, sits at home watching DVDs or reading, does that person have Aspergers or are they just shy and introverted? This is the whole point to my initial question. For me the guy in the clip is like this, sweet FA wrong with him.

You're basing your diagnosis of that fellow on a two minute clip of him on a programme aimed at children. You've no idea what he is like in terms of his day to day interaction with people or on what end of the spectrum he is in terms of his aspergers. Sure he's reading comic books nothing wrong with him a good ride wouldn't sort out, right?

It is crazy to base an argument about the credibility of conditions and learning disorders based on a kids tv show giving a very scant overview of a person who has aspergers.

Android 666 · 21-06-2011 09:25AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I think it very fair for some posters to doubt some cases .Of course there are very genuine cases and of course there are many who find it a struggle .But there are also kids who simply need good parenting and a bit of discipline and in fact these kids are diluting the available help for those who need it . There are kids in every class in every school who take up so much resources becasue the parents simply havent done their job properly .These resources could be channeled to those genuine kids who need it ,

How do you know this to be true? I have heard this several times but has anyone ever met a child who was diagnosed with ADHD or ADD based on bad parenting? There are kids that don't behave properly in every class - I don't think anyone is disputing that - but not all these kids are diagnosed with these conditions. Bad parenting can and most likely will lead to disruptive behaviour but that does not mean the child will be diagnosed with ADHD or ADD.

conorhal · 21-06-2011 09:33AM

DexyDrain wrote: »

It suggests nothing of the sort. You have to know what the baseline rate was before the rise and after compared to international norms. Increased awareness leads to more assessments, the rise does not in itself indicate the disorder rates were actually lower previously as opposed to undiagnosed.

Coffee is a stimulant not unrelated to stimulants used to treat ADD, many were self medicating via caffeine without knowing why.

A quick leap to a well worn defence that also manages to ignore the rest of the sentence....

"...and it exposed the regular prescription of ADHD medication to children far below the recommended age at which such drugs should be prescribed and at far higher doses, in some cases 5 times the recommended dosage, for a child."

If it's not uncommon amongst the medical profession to flout the proscription guidelines I suggest to you that it's probably not that uncommon that such irresponsible individuals would misdiagnose in the first place, hence the rapid increase in prescription numbers.
I got the distinct impression from that report that ADHD drugs were the 'new Antibiotics'. Drugs that should be tightly controlled by the medical profession, but in reality they tend to be proscribed for any and everything that a patient wanders into a GP for. Often you see antiboitics prescribed simply because a patient complains loudly enough and the GP is too lazy to explain that they will do nothing more then provide a placebo effect if you are only suffering from the common cold.

Android 666 · 21-06-2011 10:01AM

conorhal wrote: »

A quick leap to a well worn defence that also manages to ignore the rest of the sentence....

"...and it exposed the regular prescription of ADHD medication to children far below the recommended age at which such drugs should be prescribed and at far higher doses, in some cases 5 times the recommended dosage, for a child."

But again there are no actual numbers - once a month could be perceived as a regular occurrence and how many cases were there of the kids being given 5 times the recommended doses? Some could mean two. It's easy to fudge figures to create maximum impact.

conorhal wrote: »

If it's not uncommon amongst the medical profession to flout the proscription guidelines I suggest to you that it's probably not that uncommon that such irresponsible individuals would misdiagnose in the first place, hence the rapid increase in prescription numbers.

But again you've no basis for this assertion. No one will deny that there are kids that wrongly diagnosed but what figure does this make up of the rise of prescriptions is something neither of us knows. I would put the rise in prescriptions down to the growing awareness of the problem myself.

conorhal wrote: »

I got the distinct impression from that report that ADHD drugs were the 'new Antibiotics'.

Which is exactly what the report was trying to say with shock statistics that didn't actually reveal any information.

conorhal wrote: »

Drugs that should be tightly controlled by the medical profession, but in reality they tend to be proscribed for any and everything that a patient wanders into a GP for. Often you see antiboitics prescribed simply because a patient complains loudly enough and the GP is too lazy to explain that they will do nothing more then provide a placebo effect if you are only suffering from the common cold.

I have never seen a doctor prescribe antibiotics to a patient with a common cold but I have often heard about it. I'm not suggesting it isn't a problem with some GPs but it seems to be a commonly held belief that it is a practice carried out by all GPs which couldn't be further from the truth.

orourkeda · 21-06-2011 11:03AM

Isn't all this "labelling" down to a simple lack of real and in depth understanding of how the human mind and personality works.

Lady Chatterton · 21-06-2011 11:10AM

NIMAN wrote: »

Downs was not mentioned, or even considered, as being the same as some of the other conditions I had in mind when starting this thread.

I did not use the term 'special needs' as it is normally associated with a certain type of illness here in Ireland, and imho did not apply to the 'conditions' I had in mind.

OP, you didn't read my previous post correctly? What I said was I believed that you would probably never describe a child with Downs Syndrome as being "simply useless, evil, bad, or stupid". However, you appear to have no difficulty describing children with autism, aspergers, ADHD and ADD in that way.

NIMAN wrote: »

Are we trying to cover up the fact that they are either useless or plain bad?

But they are not allowed to be simply useless, evil, bad, or stupid.
Instead they have to have Asperger's Syndrome, ADHD, Attention Deficit Disorder or something else.

Autism, Aspergers, ADHD and ADD are recognised disabilities/special needs too but it would appear that if you can't see the disability on the outside, you don't believe it exists.

I found your remarks about special needs kids extremely offensive and deeply upsetting, no child should ever be described as useless, or stupid or evil. Actually, I've very disturbed by your use of the word evil.

You really need to research this topic more, ten minutes of children's TV doesn't make you an expert.

byhookorbycrook · 21-06-2011 11:25AM

Two great books for those wanting to know more: All dogs have ADHD and All cats have Aspergers.

I know of a child with genuine ADHD, they are like a springer spaniel, focus on one thing and then suddenly gone after another.They come from a "good" home with supportive parents and are certainly not run riot .

Another child I know of who has been diagnosed with ADHD would benefit from therapy-that therapy would include a kick in the ass, for themselves and their parents and a diet that does not consist of fizzy drinks and junk sweets.

Android 666 · 21-06-2011 11:26AM

orourkeda wrote: »

Isn't all this "labelling" down to a simple lack of real and in depth understanding of how the human mind and personality works.

How so? Isn't every other disease or disorder labeled as well. We have different types of cancer and heart disease all labeled. I would have thought it was helping to get a better idea of how the human mind worked. We're still a great distance away from fully understanding it but our knowledge is evolving all the time.

Elle Collins · 21-06-2011 12:53PM

I think the truth of the matter is that nasty bastards come in all shapes and sizes and sometimes that size is two foot tall.

dadah · 21-06-2011 12:56PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Are we trying to cover up the fact that they are either useless or plain bad?

But they are not allowed to be simply useless, evil, bad, or stupid.
Instead they have to have Asperger's Syndrome, ADHD, Attention Deficit Disorder or something else.

I know, it's really annoying!:mad:

Logical Fallacy · 21-06-2011 12:57PM

crayolastereo wrote: »

Yes, but not for a learning disability. And if she was accepted as qualified by whoever it is that manages these things, I maintain my doubts.

Here is the thing though, there will be "good" and "bad" people at everything. Do you assume all mechanics are as skilled as each other? Or all doctors will have a high standard of bed side manner?

Nope.

A good psych will help you find the cause of an issue and deal with it, not label you and reinforce your behaviour.

I have to say that i find very little sense in your argument...it would be like watching a bad movie and saying "all movies are bad".

fearcruach · 21-06-2011 01:05PM

Elle Collins wrote: »

I think the truth of the matter is that nasty bastards come in all shapes and sizes and sometimes that size is two foot tall.

That is an incredibly disappointing viewpoint in this day and age.

Sure we might as well just lock them up, because they're just "nasty bastards".

Elle Collins · 21-06-2011 01:11PM

fearcruach wrote: »

That is an incredibly disappointing viewpoint in this day and age.

Sure we might as well just lock them up, because they're just "nasty bastards".

Good God not at all. There are medical conditions aplenty - what I'm saying is there are some nasty bastards who are affected by nothing other than their own nasty bastardness!

iamwhoiam · 21-06-2011 01:22PM

Android 666 wrote: »

How do you know this to be true? I have heard this several times but has anyone ever met a child who was diagnosed with ADHD or ADD based on bad parenting? There are kids that don't behave properly in every class - I don't think anyone is disputing that - but not all these kids are diagnosed with these conditions. Bad parenting can and most likely will lead to disruptive behaviour but that does not mean the child will be diagnosed with ADHD or ADD.

But I didnt say they were diagnosed withanything ? I said they are disruptive and diluting resources from genuine cases .Although some parents would have you believe they have been diagnosed by telling you that " he has a touch of hyperactivity "

DexyDrain · 21-06-2011 01:22PM

Elle Collins wrote: »

Good God not at all. There are medical conditions aplenty - what I'm saying is there are some nasty bastards who are affected by nothing other than their own nasty bastardness!

I don't get your point? Are you saying children with disorders are indistinguishable from 'typical nasty bastards'? Why draw such a comparison?

Android 666 · 21-06-2011 01:43PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

But I didnt say they were diagnosed withanything ? I said they are disruptive and diluting resources from genuine cases .

It's a thread about kids with conditions - I assumed you meant there were kids being labelled with ADHD or ADD based on bad parenting. I'm not really sure what your point is now. Are you saying that kids who are disruptive will be tested for one of those conditions when they don't have it therefore stretching the finite resources there? I'm sure it does happen but is it not better to have a couple of kids tested who turn out to be okay then not test them and just assume their being disruptive and let them slip through the cracks?

iamwhoiam · 21-06-2011 01:51PM

Android 666 wrote: »

It's a thread about kids with conditions - I assumed you meant there were kids being labelled with ADHD or ADD based on bad parenting. I'm not really sure what your point is now. Are you saying that kids who are disruptive will be tested for one of those conditions when they don't have it therefore stretching the finite resources there? I'm sure it does happen but is it not better to have a couple of kids tested who turn out to be okay then not test them and just assume their being disruptive and let them slip through the cracks?

I think we have our lines crossed .Schools have kids who disrupt and draw on resources .ie teachers time , SNAs time and resource teachers time .The parents would have you believe they have a
" touch of hyperactivity " Becuase really what the kid has is lack of discipline and the teachers hands are tied as the parents are non co operative in accepting this .It takes time and effort to get the point across that certain kids simply need parental time and input and effort .
My point is that the genune cases of ADHD are missing out due to time and effort of dealing with kids who are poorly disciplined and lacking the ability to pay attention due to the poor training at home .

DexyDrain · 21-06-2011 02:08PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I think we have our lines crossed .Schools have kids who disrupt and draw on resources .ie teachers time , SNAs time and resource teachers time .The parents would have you believe they have a
" touch of hyperactivity " Becuase really what the kid has is lack of discipline and the teachers hands are tied as the parents are non co operative in accepting this .It takes time and effort to get the point across that certain kids simply need parental time and input and effort .
My point is that the genune cases of ADHD are missing out due to time and effort of dealing with kids who are poorly disciplined and lacking the ability to pay attention due to the poor training at home .

I guess the problem with that is that interventions that have been studied aimed at improving children's behaviour in general by training and supporting parents, giving them strategies and skills that are effective at home rarely demonstrate any significant improvements in the school environment. Children behave differently according to context. The rowdy bully in school might be the youngest, meekest pushover at home.

What does show results are interventions aimed at providing similar support and strategies for teachers alongside parents, but even then the improvements have not been shown to be long term.

iamwhoiam · 21-06-2011 02:19PM

DexyDrain wrote: »

I guess the problem with that is that interventions that have been studied aimed at improving children's behaviour in general by training and supporting parents, giving them strategies and skills that are effective at home rarely demonstrate any significant improvements in the school environment. Children behave differently according to context. The rowdy bully in school might be the youngest, meekest pushover at home.

What does show results are interventions aimed at providing similar support and strategies for teachers alongside parents, but even then the improvements have not been shown to be long term.

to be honest I suppose the big stumbling block there is the lack of commitment of some parents and the un willingness to make the effort .
We have a case of it here under our noses in the area . A young lad who from infancy was allowed be " himself " and at 7 was causing mayhem on the road .Had the father raised himslef off the couch occasionally , or put his golf clubs away and taken the child off for a run ,maybe he would be calmer .As it was every single teacher had a problem with this kid and according to the Mum the child was disliked becuase by every teacher because the teacher was bad . His " free spirit " was causing mayhem but neither parent willing to listen , take advice and sort it . I am guessing it would have meant they would need to actually get up of their arses and deal with it .
When he let the air out of tyres he was " just curious " etc etc and I am sure that went on on a daily bases in school too .

byhookorbycrook · 21-06-2011 02:57PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I think we have our lines crossed .Schools have kids who disrupt and draw on resources .ie teachers time , SNAs time and resource teachers time .The parents would have you believe they have a
" touch of hyperactivity " Becuase really what the kid has is lack of discipline and the teachers hands are tied as the parents are non co operative in accepting this .It takes time and effort to get the point across that certain kids simply need parental time and input and effort .
My point is that the genune cases of ADHD are missing out due to time and effort of dealing with kids who are poorly disciplined and lacking the ability to pay attention due to the poor training at home .

SNAs and resource hours are not given out for a "touch of" anything. It's a long and complicated process to get either. At the moment no new SNAs are being appointed, even though the school going population is increasing .No new resource hours at the moment wither and what hours there are have been cut by 10% per child.

iamwhoiam · 21-06-2011 03:00PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

SNAs and resource hours are not given out for a "touch of" anything. It's a long and complicated process to get either. At the moment no new SNAs are being appointed, even though the school going population is increasing .No new resource hours at the moment wither and what hours there are have been cut by 10% per child.

Yes < I know that officially SNAs time is not handed out willy nilly , they are stretched to the limit and often give extra for such kids .

Why have children now got so many conditions ?

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