Why have children now got so many conditions ?

Lady Chatterton · 20-06-2011 03:47PM

weedhead wrote: »

Seems alot more acceptable as opposed to people blaming their crappy parenting.

So you believe that conditions like autism, aspergers, ADD and ADHD are caused by crappy parenting :rolleyes::mad:

I'm rendered speakless :eek: :eek: :eek:

Turtwig · 20-06-2011 03:55PM

conorhal wrote: »

There was a shocking report on the BBC or C4 recently that cited a 500% increase in ADHD prescriptions since 1991 in the UK
[/COLOR]

Kinda going off topic here, but I read a book once about telling lies by telling truthful statistics. I highly recommend it to everyone because it's such an eye opener. I'm not saying the BBC or C4 are being deceptive, I'm just illuminating the fact that that 500% increase is meaningless jibberish.

Edit : Found it.

Android 666 · 20-06-2011 03:58PM

conorhal wrote: »

There was a shocking report on the BBC or C4 recently that cited a 500% increase in ADHD prescriptions since 1991 in the UK

But did it give actual figures in this programme? A 500% increase sounds like a shocking amount and probably said like this for maximum impact but if there was a very small percentage of people being diagnosed with the condition back in 1991, which I'm sure there was back then - it would still have been an obscure enough term back then. A rise in awareness of the condition is likely to lead to an increase in diagnoses. So the figures are probably quite easy to massage for dramatic purposes. The accepted figure seems to be around 3-5% of children suffer from ADHD.

charlemont · 20-06-2011 03:59PM

Money... And more of it, The medical profession is a scam.

Iv been diagnosed with ADD but I tried the Ritalin and its muck, Its basically like Speed (Amphetamine), I would never put that crap in my body again, Being under the influence of it at a party would be one thing but who wants to be "wired" all day on that crap.

Android 666 · 20-06-2011 04:01PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Kinda going off topic here, but I read a book once about telling lies by telling truthful statistics. I highly recommend it to everyone because it's such an eye opener. I'm not saying the BBC or C4 are being deceptive, I'm just illuminating the fact that that 500% increase is meaningless jibberish.

Edit : Found it.

Yeah, you beat me to it. I'm always a bit suspicious when claims like that are made - it might statistically be true but it doesn't reveal the fuller picture.

sinjin_smythe · 20-06-2011 05:24PM

MrsD007 wrote: »

So you believe that conditions like autism, aspergers, ADD and ADHD are caused by crappy parenting :rolleyes::mad:

I'm rendered speakless :eek: :eek: :eek:

No, I do believe that these conditions exist and there are many cases where kids are diagnosed with it genuinely, I also believe that there are many kids diagnosed with it by their own parents, because its easier to blame a condition rather then their own crappy parenting.

Android 666 · 20-06-2011 05:40PM

weedhead wrote: »

No, I do believe that these conditions exist and there are many cases where kids are diagnosed with it genuinely, I also believe that there are many kids diagnosed with it by their own parents, because its easier to blame a condition rather then their own crappy parenting.

Seriously, that is beyond stupid. I have never heard of any parent diagnosing their own kids with a behavioural problem without going to a doctor or psychiatrist. Where are you getting this notion from?

Jamie Starr · 20-06-2011 05:45PM

I do think it's a good thing that children who have learning or behavioural difficulties are given attention and recognition, and placing a label or diagnosis on these conditions gives the children, and the people around them, a bit of breathing space they may require in the midst of children without these problems.

What I disagree with is parents, teachers or the child basically using a learning or behavioural difficulty, and/or the medication for it, as an excuse. Oftentimes, once someone thinks, or rightfully believes they have a condition, I think they slip into a bit of a lethargy about it, and are enabled by the people around them. They never try to help themselves improve their condition, and neither do others.

I've worked a bit with children who have learning or behavioural problems, and whilst their difficulties set them back, I think some attentiveness and willpower on the part of a parent, teacher or the sufferer themselves would benefit their problems hugely. Some children get that attention, a lot more don't.

Of course, it goes without saying that some mental problems are extremely difficult to manage, and having a name for that problem along with structures in place to help sufferers live their lives in spite of it, are also vitally important. 20 years ago, in this country at least, someone with a genuine problem was left on the scrapheap. I just feel that occasionally cosigning people to certain terms, without a bit of follow-up work, can produce the same effect.

DexyDrain · 20-06-2011 06:01PM

Research published last year finds direct genetic evidence of the heritability and genetic influence on brain development in children with ADHD:
"We hope that these findings will help overcome the stigma associated with ADHD,” says Professor Anita Thapar. “Too often, people dismiss ADHD as being down to bad parenting or poor diet. As a clinician, it was clear to me that this was unlikely to be the case. Now we can say with confidence that ADHD is a genetic disease and that the brains of children with this condition develop differently to those of other children"

"The condition is highly heritable – children with ADHD are statistically more likely to also have a parent with the condition and a child with an identical twin with ADHD has a three in four chance of also having the condition. Even so, until now there has been no direct evidence that the condition is genetic and there has been much controversy surrounding its causes, which some people have put down to poor parenting skills or a sugar-rich diet"

http://www.bmedreport.com/archives/17723

Funded primarily by the Wellcome Trust and other independent bodies.

Chuchoter · 20-06-2011 06:23PM

In my own experience, I actually consider most of psychology to be bull****, pseudoscience and I think it is largely a damaging force in the world. Psychologists will keep telling you you're ****ed up, keep firing horrible labels at you and by the end of it, you trust their expertise so much you believe everything they've said. Hence, you keep coming back to them to give them more money to fix you. You believe everything they've said about you and become so incredibly down on yourself you just accept and become all those things.

Melion · 20-06-2011 06:28PM

Has anyone explained the ridiculous allergy to peanuts that has only appeared in the last 4-5 years?

Logical Fallacy · 20-06-2011 06:31PM

crayolastereo wrote: »

In my own experience, I actually consider most of psychology to be bull****, pseudoscience and I think it is largely a damaging force in the world. Psychologists will keep telling you you're ****ed up, keep firing horrible labels at you and by the end of it, you trust their expertise so much you believe everything they've said. Hence, you keep coming back to them to give them more money to fix you. You believe everything they've said about you and become so incredibly down on yourself you just accept and become all those things.

Have you ever been to a psychologist?

Because if you have you went to a **** one.

Naikon · 20-06-2011 06:32PM

DexyDrain wrote: »

Research published last year finds direct genetic evidence of the heritability and genetic influence on brain development in children with ADHD:
"We hope that these findings will help overcome the stigma associated with ADHD,” says Professor Anita Thapar. “Too often, people dismiss ADHD as being down to bad parenting or poor diet. As a clinician, it was clear to me that this was unlikely to be the case. Now we can say with confidence that ADHD is a genetic disease and that the brains of children with this condition develop differently to those of other children"

"The condition is highly heritable – children with ADHD are statistically more likely to also have a parent with the condition and a child with an identical twin with ADHD has a three in four chance of also having the condition. Even so, until now there has been no direct evidence that the condition is genetic and there has been much controversy surrounding its causes, which some people have put down to poor parenting skills or a sugar-rich diet"

http://www.bmedreport.com/archives/17723

Funded primarily by the Wellcome Trust and other independent bodies.

Genetic Difference != Genetic Disease

Psychiatry == social coercion

ADHD is NOT a disease. This is fact.

Logical Fallacy · 20-06-2011 06:35PM

Naikon wrote: »

ADHD is NOT a disease. This is fact.

Not really, it's an opinion.

Naikon · 20-06-2011 06:41PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Not really, it's an opinion.

An opinion substantiated by the lack of evidence for ADHD, no less.

DexyDrain · 20-06-2011 06:45PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Have you ever been to a psychologist?

Because if you have you went to a **** one.

Maybe, could have been one of Oliver James unfortunate patients :pac:

In fairness, there has been some fairly bogus dead ends and unfounded theories and treatments in psychology, behaviourism, psychoanalysis, 'icebox mothers' and the like. Mad to think it's only in the last few decades that the study of the brain became one of the fields foundations.

20-06-2011 06:48PM

I think it's a fair point to make, it does make me say 'hmm...'

I've often felt that ADHD is way over-diagnosed and as such it's almost a medical label for scumbaggery even though there's most likely people who genuinely fit the criteria.

On the other hand, I suspect I have Aspergers myself, but maybe it's just that I don't want to think of the alternative, that I might just be a freak.

That's what I thought of myself before coming across it.

Logical Fallacy · 20-06-2011 06:49PM

Naikon wrote: »

An opinion substantiated by the lack of evidence for ADHD, no less.

I'm willing to take the possibility of genetic markers being a cause as some evidence and i'll be interested in further research.

The funny thing is that back in the day, when people spoke of germs and tiny microscopic creatures that caused disease and infections they would have been mocked, as everyone knew that putrid wounds were caused by peoples sins.

I'm definitely not a person to buy into everything that is out there is the world of psychology, I reckon a lot of it is complete garbage...that said, it's a relatively new science and like all things it takes time to confirm or validate or dismiss concepts as they arise.

I'd rather see a concept investigated fully and repeatedly myself. Just me though.

flas · 20-06-2011 06:54PM

because parents now dont know how to discipline their kids properly and are just lazy, using ****e like the bold step or other muck like that, a clip around the ear or shoe up the hole worked years ago when none of these so called disorders were heard of.

it seems to be aswell depending on the kind of back ground the child is from, if he is from a wealthy back ground he has adhd or one of those, if he is from a less well off back ground he is just a little scumbag!

Naikon · 20-06-2011 06:56PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I'm willing to take the possibility of genetic markers being a cause as some evidence and i'll be interested in further research.

The funny thing is that back in the day, when people spoke of germs and tiny microscopic creatures that caused disease and infections they would have been mocked, as everyone knew that putrid wounds were caused by peoples sins.

I'm definitely not a person to buy into everything that is out there is the world of psychology, I reckon a lot of it is complete garbage...that said, it's a relatively new science and like all things it takes time to confirm or validate or dismiss concepts as they arise.

I'd rather see a concept investigated fully and repeatedly myself. Just me though.

That does not detract from the fact these drugs are being prescribed to children under the guise of clear, solid research. Nothing could be further from the truth. A genetic marker by itself proves absolutely nothing about showing a genetic basis for a given disease.

The only important facet is a biological marker that can differentiate between people with the "disease", and those that do not. A lab test. Would you accept a high blood pressure diagnosis without a test? Why should you accept a bogus label for your child based on nothing more than a subjective whim.

Using the "we don't know much about the brain yet!" won't wash when they actually prescribe drugs for a "disorder" which is marketed as well proven, but really isn't. I think people should sit on the fence more with these issues, as you have. I won't say ADHD does not exist as an absolute, but there is no clear evidence at this present time. It's a mess of sorts.

big jack · 20-06-2011 06:58PM

I had (and still do) an unusually large penis as a school boy and took every oportunity to display my weapon to all and sundry including the female staff. I've long ago lost count of the amount of expulsions and other punishments meted out to me over this condition.
Children in my day were not treated with the loveand attention they needed and I believe to this day, that had my condition been dealt with properly, than I woudnt hacve grown up to be a big bollix.

Lady Chatterton · 20-06-2011 06:59PM

crayolastereo wrote: »

In my own experience, I actually consider most of psychology to be bull****, pseudoscience and I think it is largely a damaging force in the world. Psychologists will keep telling you you're ****ed up, keep firing horrible labels at you and by the end of it, you trust their expertise so much you believe everything they've said. Hence, you keep coming back to them to give them more money to fix you. You believe everything they've said about you and become so incredibly down on yourself you just accept and become all those things.

In my experience most parents do not want to label their child as having autism or ADHD but in order to access services and educational supports they have to. You appear to be totally opposed to labelling children but do you accept that a child has almost no chance of accessing public services without one? For example: if a child needs an S.N.A, his parent/guardian needs to show evidence of a disability or a special educational need.

bryaner · 20-06-2011 07:06PM

Nothing that a good beating will sort out..

Tarzan_man · 20-06-2011 07:15PM

Personally I believe that these "disorders" such as Asperger's and ADHD are just the noticeable behavioral traits of people with certain extremes in their personality types. I base this upon my readings into Cognitive Phycology, mainly newer forms such as Socionics. Basically, it's information metabolism.

I believe people with these disorders simply have a greater tendency (because of inherit genetic traits and also the environment they are currently in, and the effects of their history of environments) to heavily learn towards one style of information metabolism, which is then classed as unnatural to the perceived norm for that society; when in fact they just have an unbalanced information processing system.

There is nothing "wrong" with them, they are just acting naturally. Of course there are problems with this when it comes to functioning in a society, but that lies within personal development and understanding how they process information. I don't believe the correct answer is to pump people with these disorders full of drugs to dampen their extreme behavior, unless it is adversely affecting their (or others) health.

It's just unfortunate that certain environments (like schools, where I assume these behavioral traits are noticed first) have a norm for how individuals should act (ie, process information). Thus the people with personalities that don't inherently work well within a traditional school system are ostracized and labeled with these "disorders" simply because their personalities could be quiet extreme in a certain sense. And are then pumped with drugs which don't address the problem of the information bias, but instead try to dampen that person's personal strength to achieve a "norm".

Just for the record, I have little understanding of Aspergers, or ADHD in a contemporary medical sense. This is just my greatly uninformed concept after reading over the behavioral traits associated with the two disorders. I could be (an probably am) talking complete ****e.

Logical Fallacy · 20-06-2011 07:19PM

Naikon wrote: »

That does not detract from the fact these drugs are being prescribed to children under the guise of clear, solid research. Nothing could be further from the truth. A genetic marker by itself proves absolutely nothing about showing a genetic basis for a given disease.

The only important facet is a biological marker that can differentiate between people with the "disease", and those that do not. A lab test. Would you accept a high blood pressure diagnosis without a test? Why should you accept a bogus label for your child based on nothing more than a subjective whim.

Using the "we don't know much about the brain yet!" won't wash when they actually prescribe drugs for a "disorder" which is marketed as well proven, but really isn't. I think people should sit on the fence more with these issues, as you have. I won't say ADHD does not exist as an absolute, but there is no clear evidence at this present time. It's a mess of sorts.

I didn't say it did, i said i would like to see more research being done into it before i made up my mind.

And i'll agree with you, it is most definitely a mess of sorts, but the simple fact is that too strong a stance in either direction right now is flawed, and doesn't really help anyone who is actually affected.

fearcruach · 20-06-2011 07:19PM

Naikon wrote: »

An opinion substantiated by the lack of evidence for ADHD, no less.

Did you read the article I linked and quoted from?

Naikon · 20-06-2011 07:28PM

fearcruach wrote: »

Did you read the article I linked and quoted from?

Yes. It does not provide any insight into a possible biological basis for ADHD.

Poor Uncle Tom · 20-06-2011 07:29PM

You've got to know what to do when you break one....

DexyDrain · 20-06-2011 07:32PM

Naikon wrote: »

That does not detract from the fact these drugs are being prescribed to children under the guise of clear, solid research. Nothing could be further from the truth. A genetic marker by itself proves absolutely nothing about showing a genetic basis for a given disease.

The only important facet is a biological marker that can differentiate between people with the "disease", and those that do not. A lab test. Would you accept a high blood pressure diagnosis without a test? Why should you accept a bogus label for your child based on nothing more than a subjective whim.

Using the "we don't know much about the brain yet!" won't wash when they actually prescribe drugs for a "disorder" which is marketed as well proven, but really isn't. I think people should sit on the fence more with these issues, as you have. I won't say ADHD does not exist as an absolute, but there is no clear evidence at this present time. It's a mess of sorts.

Surely though you are intelligent enough not to discount the twin studies that show a far greater genetic component over a possible environmental one? If one identical twin is raised by a totally different family in a totally different social environment yet both twins have remarkably similar cognitive abilities and functioning, it demonstrates that genetic rather than environmental causes are at play in any given disorder you choose to study.

There are not enough genes to map to all the components and connections of the brain, that much we know. It is too complicated to be able to map stretches of genes to brain structure and organisation. We do know however that hormones under the influence of genes do have a predictable organisational affect on human and animal brains.

The fact that certain disorders have diverse effects on functioning in many areas suggests that as the brain organises itself over many, many stages, it is susceptible to genetic influences that may not directly map to any part of the fully formed brain. Research therefore could miss the critical window during which certain genes exert influence on the developing brain and cannot be shown to map to any function or organ in later development.

fearcruach · 20-06-2011 07:34PM

Naikon wrote: »

Yes. It does not provide any insight into a possible biological basis for ADHD.

Yes but it shows that ADHD is overwhelming accepted as a valid diagnosis. You say there is no evidence. The mechanism of action of paracetamol wasn't known until the last few years. By your logic, it should never have been used because there wasn't a biological basis of action.

Why have children now got so many conditions ?

Comments