Why have children now got so many conditions ?

NIMAN

Are we trying to cover up the fact that they are either useless or plain bad?

But they are not allowed to be simply useless, evil, bad, or stupid.
Instead they have to have Asperger's Syndrome, ADHD, Attention Deficit Disorder or something else.

Considering the likes of Aspergers was discovered in 1944, how come I never heard of it when I was young and at school? Is it because we are wrapping all our children in cotton wool these days and everyone who underachieves or misbehaves has to have a 'condition'.

Going back to Aspergers, I saw a little piece on it on RTE today. It showed a guy of maybe 16 or 17 who would, in my day at school, have been described as a bit of a nerd or geek. It said that one of the symptoms of the condition was the fact that he 'found it hard to interact socially and make friends'. In my day this was common for nerds. Then we saw him engaging in something which he found he liked - reading comic books !! It was all adding up. Then next to a photo of him with a few 'friends', all who looked very 'nerdish'.

For me, I now believe I knew a lot of Aspergers sufferers in my school days. But we just called them weirdo's.

Am I being harsh? Or truthful?

Overheal

No there are nerds (me) and people who actually have conditions like Aspergers. You're probably being just a tad harsh but I won't pretend it's not difficult to be around someone with the syndrome.

jive

A lot of them I think are legitimate (such as all those listed in the OP), however, I know someone who was recently diagnosed with.... wait for it.....

Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). This basically means he's a phucking gob****e.

"Common features of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) include excessive, often persistent anger, frequent temper tantrums or angry outbursts, and disregard for authority."

Elohim

Imagine if the doctors actually diagnosed and treated kids' disorders. School would be awful without having "weirdos" to make fun of.

tommyhaas

Saying a child has ADHD is just a socially acceptable way of saying he's a wee bolox. Same applies to laziness and dyslexia half the time

NIMAN

The guy on the RTE piece today seemed very 'normal' to me.

From what I could make out his symptoms were the fact that he found it hard to make friends, was socially inept, and read comic books.

I would say the 1st two problems are common among the comic book reading fraternity.

NIMAN

jive wrote: »

A lot of them I think are legitimate (such as all those listed in the OP), however, I know someone who was recently diagnosed with.... wait for it.....

Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). This basically means he's a phucking gob****e.

"Common features of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) include excessive, often persistent anger, frequent temper tantrums or angry outbursts, and disregard for authority."

Thats just a load of c0ck, and makes my point perfectly.

Is there a direct correlation between the rise of these disorders and the end of kids being slapped by parents/teachers?

Overheal

jive wrote: »

A lot of them I think are legitimate (such as all those listed in the OP), however, I know someone who was recently diagnosed with.... wait for it.....

Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). This basically means he's a phucking gob****e.

"Common features of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) include excessive, often persistent anger, frequent temper tantrums or angry outbursts, and disregard for authority."

Hmm, I would have easily fit the bill for ODD growing up.

Remember though that Psychology is only there quantifying this sort of thing, classifying it and coming up with common approaches to resolve/"cure" them. For instance I can easily say I lived for years and years with symptoms of this ODD I have never heard of. If psychologists say they want to try and figure out an approach to coach a child out of that behavior that doesn't take up their entire adolescent life, then more power to them.

You may as well get angry that they come up with different classifications and definitions for dog breeds for all the good it does to get mad at psychology for trying to index Human condition.

J. Marston

tommyhaas wrote: »

Saying a child has ADHD is just a socially acceptable way of saying he's a wee bolox. Same applies to laziness and dyslexia half the time

A child is a bollocks if they can't read or write properly or they can read and write properly but they're just being lazy?
Have I got that right or did I misunderstand your post?

Tehachapi

Here's the clip he's on about:

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1101051

NIMAN

Tehachapi wrote: »

Here's the clip he's on about:

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1101051

Thanks for that.

Now watch that and tell me this guy was probably just overly shy when young and thats why he has ended up with this 'condition'.

jive

Overheal wrote: »

If psychologists say they want to try and figure out an approach to coach a child out of that behavior that doesn't take up their entire adolescent life, then more power to them.

You may as well get angry that they come up with different classifications and definitions for dog breeds for all the good it does to get mad at psychology for trying to index Human condition.

The dude I know who was 'diagnosed' is an adult. I think it's a nice way of saying someone is a kunt and doesn't follow rules. I agree with classifying different conditions but the above is an example of one which simply isn't real. It's just a lack of discipline.

tommyhaas

J. Marston wrote: »

A child is a bollocks if they can't read or write properly or they can read and write properly but they're just being lazy?
Have I got that right or did I misunderstand your post?

No. No you haven't. What I was implying is that I don't believe that half the people claiming to be dyslexic actually are. I think a good portion are just lazy

Similarly with ADHD. Unless there's been some sort of an epidemic, I reckon a good portion of parents claim their child has ADHD, when infact the kid is just a brat

Overheal

jive wrote: »

The dude I know who was 'diagnosed' is an adult. I think it's a nice way of saying someone is a kunt and doesn't follow rules. I agree with classifying different conditions but the above is an example of one which simply isn't real. It's just a lack of discipline.

And? Hunger is a lack of Food. Asphyxiation is a lack of oxygen. A cold is just a virus. etc.

It may "just" be a lack of discipline but better to know what the problem is in order to address it.

The only problem I have with psychology labels is they have a tendency to Stick: that is, you think "Oh, I have XYZ" and that's who you become. It's a lot harder than saying "Oh I have bronchitis" and being able to verify that with physical symptoms. With psychology it's far to easy to get yourself thinking that something is wrong with you, and change your way of thinking accordingly.

IM0

psychologists and psychiatrists decide what is normal, then give labels and meds to those who dont fit. Its the same arguement for depression, the common just cheer up and think positive attitude and viewpoint, the whole point is the sufferer cant, or at least believes they cant, so they get meds to help.

hatrickpatrick

Because our f*cked up society is obsessed with uniformity. What is "normal" anyway? society is unable to accept that everyone is different, and unfortunately if you're different, you must not be "normal", it is necessary to claim that there is something "wrong" with you and give you a label.

This, in turn, is hugely damaging to one's self esteem and DOES create genuine problems.

jive

Overheal wrote: »

And? Hunger is a lack of Food. Asphyxiation is a lack of oxygen. A cold is just a virus. etc.

It may "just" be a lack of discipline but better to know what the problem is in order to address it.

The only problem I have with psychology labels is they have a tendency to Stick: that is, you think "Oh, I have XYZ" and that's who you become. It's a lot harder than saying "Oh I have bronchitis" and being able to verify that with physical symptoms. With psychology it's far to easy to get yourself thinking that something is wrong with you, and change your way of thinking accordingly.

All terms said above have scientific evidence supporting those terms and are necessary.

I don't see how you could have some condition which makes you disrespect authority and generally go around acting like a prick. They should just call it prick syndrome instead of dancing around it. Just because you don't abide by the rules doesn't mean you have something wrong with you. For things like Asperger's it can be very obvious that something is 'wrong' with the person. People who don't respect authority and know they are doing wrong are just assholes, in my opinion.

I don't see how classifying someone with ODD helps in any way. You are just justifying them being ****. It's a made up, fairytale condition with shag all evidence supporting it. It's not much of a classification system if they can just coin terms for anything and everything with no basis for it.

My opinion is set in stone on this so I'm not going to bother discussing it further. It's not necessary to have more terms just to classify delinquents.

--LOS--

well today these kinds of conditions are just being understood more and recognised more, same goes for mental illnesses which is not a bad thing.
You'd just worry how easily doctors/pschologists etc are dishing out these titles to people. If their symptoms are greatly affecting their life fair enough but there's no need to brand someone who is really not all that affected by it. That guy in that clip doesn't seem that affected, he's seems confident in himself even if he's not that social and he seems to have a bit of a learning difficulty but that mightn't even interfere with the kind of subject he intends to pursue.

Fozzydog3

b0llocks his american accent tells me he was fecked in front of the telly while mammy went to visit uncle x

--LOS--

Fozzydog3 wrote: »

b0llocks his american accent tells me he was fecked in front of the telly while mammy went to visit uncle x

naw that's just from all the Simsums he watched

kingcantona

Mollycoddling is why!!!

IM0

--LOS-- wrote: »

naw that's just from all the Simsums he watched

anyone else wondering if he got even 10% of the jokes in it

--LOS--

me@ucd wrote: »

anyone else wondering if he got even 10% of the jokes in it

Ye I always wonder if aspergers sufferers get humour or what

Naikon

MONEY!!!

What they lack in evidence, they make up for in profits. Many people refuse to challenge these quacks, hence labels like "Transvestic Fetishism 302.30". Yes, that is an actual "disorder" in the latest DSM revision. A total joke.

Homosexuality was termed a medical "disorder" up until the 1970's. Funny how that "disorder" disappeared as a result of social changes in attitudes towards these preferences. Oh, it can't be a problem anymore, because we would recieve criticism.

I think the problem is people seeing a psychological state as being an illness. Psychologists put a name on something and suddenly it means the person is sick.

There's a lot of scientific evidence to show that criminality can be influenced by genes. That doesn't mean that we should release everyone in jail and put them on meds to counteract whatever genes are being expressed in their bodies.

I used to have a friend that was an as*hole. He'd always be horrible to people and then when they called him an as*hole he'd say, "Yeah, but that's me, I'm an a*shole, that's just the way I am". The problem is that putting a label on your behaviour isn't the same as finding an excuse for that behaviour.

With regards to Asperger's, ADHD, and even illnesses like depression, I would think that psychiatrists are far too quick to diagnose, and frighteningly quick to medicate. I do believe they are valid illnesses, and some people have an uphill struggle all their life with such illnesses, but many people who don't have that uphill struggle are medicated anyway. I think for things like ADD, medication should only be given when either:
A) every possible disciplinary/counselling tactic has been taken with the child
or
the child isn't a child anymore and can make an educated decision about their situation themselves.

I myself was put on antidepressants at 14, after one 15-minute appointment, which mainly consisted of my psychiatrist answering calls from people.

dissed doc

NIMAN wrote: »

Are we trying to cover up the fact that they are either useless or plain bad?
...

Considering the likes of Aspergers was discovered in 1944, how come I never heard of it when I was young and at school? Is it because we are wrapping all our children in cotton wool these days and everyone who underachieves or misbehaves has to have a 'condition'.
.....

For me, I now believe I knew a lot of Aspergers sufferers in my school days. But we just called them weirdo's.

Am I being harsh? Or truthful?

Because the obsession with anglo/english only being of relevance means you are simply ignorant of science from non-english countries. It didn't get translated from German until the early 1980s. What's worse, is that ADHD has been described in German psychiatry for almost 200 years. Neither of these diagnoses are new. But, they are only recently recognised in the english speaking world. Combine that ignorance, along with total lack of knowledge of mental health which is a countrywide problem, and you get your situation.

Daegerty

It keeps the social workers and the likes in their jobs.

also the kids start to accept the condition and use it as a cop out so they don't have to put in any effort to overcome it, which in turn worsens the condition which might never really have been there in the first place.

Fozzydog3

me@ucd wrote: »

anyone else wondering if he got even 10% of the jokes in it

dental plan !

Naikon

dissed doc wrote: »

What's worse, is that ADHD has been described in German psychiatry for almost 200 years.

That explains it. Has conventional science outside of the Psychiatry domain actually recognised ADHD as a real illness? I am going to go out on a limb here and state that ADHD is an ambiguous term. Not a well documented illness.

Motley Crue

More therapists in different areas of expertise and more children mean that more conditions are diagnosed every single day. It is, I think, both a way of giving every child the best start in life (because we are all entitled to that) and trying to stop someone from having to go through childhood with difficulty (like having a genuine willingness to learn but not being able to physically get the information in) and come out the other side with a chance at a college education and a good job.

Naikon

Motley Crue wrote: »

More therapists in different areas of expertise and more children mean that more conditions are diagnosed every single day. It is, I think, both a way of giving every child the best start in life (because we are all entitled to that) and trying to stop someone from having to go through childhood with difficulty (like having a genuine willingness to learn but not being able to physically get the information in) and come out the other side with a chance at a college education and a good job.

The real truth of the matter is this: These "professionals" don't care about the implications of these labels beyond profit concerns. Why assign labels? The insurance companies caclulate your premium based on the codes. It's in their best interests to label even the most normal of emotions as some sort of "personality disorder" or whatever.

Do you really believe these companies are concerned with motives other than financial gain? You put too much faith in humanity if you believe these mega corporations give a rats ass about the mental development of your child. A moving dollar sign is about the best you can hope for in their eyes.

The literature is out there for the initiated...

Daegerty

Motley Crue wrote: »

More therapists in different areas of expertise and more children mean that more conditions are diagnosed every single day. It is, I think, both a way of giving every child the best start in life (because we are all entitled to that) and trying to stop someone from having to go through childhood with difficulty (like having a genuine willingness to learn but not being able to physically get the information in) and come out the other side with a chance at a college education and a good job.

The real effect is quite the opposite however and making a mountain out of a molehill by pinning a child with some irremovable condition to make them stand out from the crowd won't do them any good either.

in a lot of cases psychiatrists and their ilk are far to keen to ship a child off to some special school or an institution, ruining any chance of even getting to college

Spacedog

jive wrote: »

A lot of them I think are legitimate (such as all those listed in the OP), however, I know someone who was recently diagnosed with.... wait for it.....

Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). This basically means he's a phucking gob****e.

"Common features of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) include excessive, often persistent anger, frequent temper tantrums or angry outbursts, and disregard for authority."

I guess these characteristics can be attributed to the heroes of the 1916 rising?

some people are social misfits,
some are angry (with reason)
some are spoiled brats who throw tantrums
some have issues about where they come from, their parents are
some are just scumbags

there is however a condition I have identified called 'social autism'. it exists in the minds of right wing politicians and their supporters. it is the complete absence of empathy or understanding for the elderly, poor, destitute, disabled, while being obsessed with superficial crap like house prices, armchair economics (low corporation tax). No logical argument can reach them. because they've always lived in another reality where being poor is something to be feared and looked down upon.

Pherekydes

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Because our f*cked up society is obsessed with uniformity. What is "normal" anyway? society is unable to accept that everyone is different, and unfortunately if you're different, you must not be "normal", it is necessary to claim that there is something "wrong" with you and give you a label.

This, in turn, is hugely damaging to one's self esteem and DOES create genuine problems.

But 95% of people are normal.

Naikon

Pherekydes wrote: »

But 95% of people are normal.

Define "normal". It does not exist, period.

Pherekydes

Naikon wrote: »

Define "normal". It does not exist, period.

By definition, 95% of any population is normal.


It sucks when you have to explain a joke.

Naikon

Pherekydes wrote: »

By definition, 95% of any population is normal.


It sucks when you have to explain a joke.

This "defintion" is relative to an unsubstantiated opinion. I fail to see how it qualifies as funny.

Naikon

Naikon wrote: »

This "defintion" is relative to an unsubstantiated opinion. I fail to see how it qualifies as funny.

it's ok, it's a stats joke... move along if you don't get it...

Pherekydes

Naikon wrote: »

This "defintion" is relative to an unsubstantiated opinion. I fail to see how it qualifies as funny.

Well I laughed. Maybe I'm ODD? :pac:

Naikon

Pherekydes wrote: »

Well I laughed. Maybe I'm ODD? :pac:

I really like this one:

Why can't mathematicians tell the difference between Halloween and Christmas?

Because 31 Oct is 25 Dec!

:pac:

W.Shakes-Beer

When playing MW2, you can almost be guaranteed that half the 15 year old quick scopers in the lobby are riddled with "ADHD".

Owen

The problem I see is with Parents. Kid gets diagnosed with ADHD, or ODD, or ADD ... and then they gets trolled out as an excuse for bad behaviour rather than them actually using discipline, and leadership skills to quell their crotchdropping.

I was probably one of the above, but my Mother knew how to tell me to STFU when I misbehaved in public.

Ghost Buster

NIMAN wrote: »

Are we trying to cover up the fact that they are either useless or plain bad?

But they are not allowed to be simply useless, evil, bad, or stupid.
Instead they have to have Asperger's Syndrome, ADHD, Attention Deficit Disorder or something else.

Considering the likes of Aspergers was discovered in 1944, how come I never heard of it when I was young and at school? Is it because we are wrapping all our children in cotton wool these days and everyone who underachieves or misbehaves has to have a 'condition'.

Going back to Aspergers, I saw a little piece on it on RTE today. It showed a guy of maybe 16 or 17 who would, in my day at school, have been described as a bit of a nerd or geek. It said that one of the symptoms of the condition was the fact that he 'found it hard to interact socially and make friends'. In my day this was common for nerds. Then we saw him engaging in something which he found he liked - reading comic books !! It was all adding up. Then next to a photo of him with a few 'friends', all who looked very 'nerdish'.

For me, I now believe I knew a lot of Aspergers sufferers in my school days. But we just called them weirdo's.

Am I being harsh? Or truthful?

Yeah. And people who were obviously possessed by demons and evil spirits or even Satan are now given namby pamby names like Epileptic. The world has gone mad i tells ya.

Chuck Stone

I blame the gays.

The King of Moo

I think the problem is partly that when we hear something described as a condition we think of it as being described as an illness as both can be used to mean that in medical terms.
But in psychological terms, they're not the same as far as I know. A condition isn't the same as a mental illness, it's more a way of classifying a personality type, especially one that deviates far from the perceived norm.

Now certainly things can get taken too far, like the ODD mentioned above, or some kids who're diagnoses with ADHD.
I used to be cynical about the diagnosis of ADHD, but then I had to teach a kid with a genuine case of ADHD for a short time, and I could easily tell the difference between him and a kid who's just a bit bold or hyper. He was a nice kid, but he just couldn't stop himself from jumping around, and I considered myself a fairly good disciplinarian with kids and had never had any trouble with any, but there was nothing I could do to calm him down.

It's a shame to think that in the past he would've been lumped in with the genuine messers and continuously disciplined even though it'd have had no effect on him.
It's the same thing with shy kids, sometimes it's just their personality and can be improved by proper interaction with them and their own willpower, but sometimes they need a helping hand.

It's important to remember that such conditions aren't meant to be considered as mental illnesses, rather just classifications of degrees of personality. Variety is great and necessary, but sometimes someone's personality diverges so much from the mainstream that they can't function properly in society and need some help from outside. Yes things can be taken to an extreme, but I don't think that's a bad price to pay for the help that our recognition of different personality types can give to those who need it.

iamwhoiam

The genuine cases od ADHD and Aspergers etc are missing out on resources because of the kids who are no such thing and being labeled as such .
There are of course genuine cases who now have to share SNA and many other relief and aid with kids who very simply have been lumperd with poor parenting .
We have two such cases here under our noses , one child who genuinely has a problem , who needs the resources and could do with more . The other child who is downright bold, wild, rude , and spoilt rotten ., He was allowed from infancy to rule the roost , the parents found it funny when he climbed on the cars on the road .He went to school and of course caused mayhem and all because he lacked discipline and guidance . And a good hard smack wouldnt have gone astray now and then either .

rainbowtrout

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The problem I see is with Parents. Kid gets diagnosed with ADHD, or ODD, or ADD ... and then they gets trolled out as an excuse for bad behaviour rather than them actually using discipline, and leadership skills to quell their crotchdropping.

I was probably one of the above, but my Mother knew how to tell me to STFU when I misbehaved in public.

Yep, none of these disorders existed when I was in primary school in the 80s. Kids were well behaved or poorly behaved and those that misbehaved learned to behave fairly quickly

Chuck Stone

Logical Fallacy

jive wrote: »

All terms said above have scientific evidence supporting those terms and are necessary.

I don't see how you could have some condition which makes you disrespect authority and generally go around acting like a prick. They should just call it prick syndrome instead of dancing around it. Just because you don't abide by the rules doesn't mean you have something wrong with you. For things like Asperger's it can be very obvious that something is 'wrong' with the person. People who don't respect authority and know they are doing wrong are just assholes, in my opinion.

I don't see how classifying someone with ODD helps in any way. You are just justifying them being ****. It's a made up, fairytale condition with shag all evidence supporting it. It's not much of a classification system if they can just coin terms for anything and everything with no basis for it.

My opinion is set in stone on this so I'm not going to bother discussing it further. It's not necessary to have more terms just to classify delinquents.

Out of interest why would you say "that doesn't mean you have something wrong with you" and then term the person a prick, or wanker....which clearly implies you feel there is something wrong with them?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, none of these disorders existed when I was in primary school in the 80s. Kids were well behaved or poorly behaved and those that misbehaved learned to behave fairly quickly

Not being smart, but they did exist, you just hadn't heard of them, as most people hadn't. Add in the fact that during the 80's the majority of people in Ireland were dirt ****ing poor, any form of psychoanalysis or therapy was considered a reserve for loonies and the mental health system in Ireland was complete ****e and there you go....lots of reasons why you wouldn't have heard of stuff until more recently.

I sincerely doubt you were too well up on Schrödinger's cat either back in the 80's...but i can bet that internet meme's have you all over the concept now.

Hell, if you were born at a certain time you'd be saying..."yeah well, when i was a kid the earth was ****ing flat...this whole round earth idea is a load of bollix".

I'm not saying there are not a certain number of misdiagnoses going on in the mental health system (from first hand experience i would say there are, daily ) but most of the reasons for dismissal given in this thread are fairly funny.

Raspberries

The thing is, back in the 80s or 90s, many children who had severe learning difficulties or anything similar were sent to special schools or institutions with no hope of normal interaction with their peers. For example, Rain Man. He was in an institution.

In schools now, they are attempting to include as many children as possible in the classroom. Some children may go to special schools for a period and then go to normal schools. Some may go to special classes in the normal schools.

So that may be another reason why people are finding out about different disorders in the past few years.

The thing is, a lot of people could be classed as being on the Autistic spectrum to some degree and some may use it as an excuse. But you can't lump every autistic child or adult into that category. Some do need extra help or a different way of teaching/learning.

Lady Chatterton

NIMAN wrote: »

Are we trying to cover up the fact that they are either useless or plain bad?

But they are not allowed to be simply useless, evil, bad, or stupid. Instead they have to have Asperger's Syndrome, ADHD, Attention Deficit Disorder or something else.

As someone who has worked on a voluntary basis with children with autism, Aspergers and ADHD, I find it very hard to believe that the OP has any real understanding of the conditions he has referred to, if he did he would realise how truly disgusting it is to describe a child with special needs as being "useless, plain bad, stupid or evil". I doubt OP that you would use these terms to describe a child with Downs Syndrome. Just because a disability isn't obvious from the outside, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I feel part of the problem in this country is that some ignorant people use labels incorrectly and inappropriately, we all have heard people in supermarkets describing a child has having ADHD because they have a tantrum and people saying they suffer from depression when they are just a bit down.

OP, I feel your description of children with special needs is very upsetting and insulting to the many parents and carers who spend their lives looking after children with some serious challenges.