The West Wing Spoilers

Paully D · 18-06-2011 10:49pm #1

I've never watched it but I'm looking for a new series to watch after recently finishing The Wire, The Sopranos and catching up on Entourage (now waiting for the new season to be released next month).

Is it worth watching?

angeldelight · 18-06-2011 10:50pm

Absolutely! It's very clever and quite funny at times. I've watched the whole thing about 3 times and would watch it again. It's quite addictive though so be prepared for some late nights!

cml387 · 18-06-2011 10:54pm

Limit yourself to two a week.
You don't need to know that much about American politics.
It has crackling dialogue.
It can be overly sentimental and idealistic at times...but

I wish I was able to watch it for the first time again!

Paully D · 18-06-2011 11:05pm

I've just noticed there's over 150 episodes with a running time of 40 minutes each :eek:

I'll give it a go anyway!

Lapin · 18-06-2011 11:09pm

Excellent series and very addictive if you have the complete set.

As someone else said, limit yourself to a couple a week or prepare for some late nights !

Some great sub-plots in it.

Uriel. · 18-06-2011 11:15pm

I watched the box set for the first time 12 months ago. I have since watched it through again. And I'd watch it again in a heartbeat. I loved it. The stories were great (if over dramatic at times). It is quite educational also in a fun way in terms of American politics, which I have since become interested in since watching the show.

For me the characters stole the show. There are some amazing Story lines for the characters and I loved allthe main ones in their own little way.

Josh for me was the funniest albut I have a soft spot for Leo.

As others have said it's addictive and difficult to limit your exposure. I ha some very sleepy mornings in work having had a very very very late night watching loads of episodes in one go because I couldn't turn it off.

Amazing show. One of my all time favourites

sink · 18-06-2011 11:21pm

It would make my top 5, I've watched it through 3 times, definitely give it a shot.

Others in my top 5 are

The Wire
Six Feet Under
Band of Brothers
Breaking Bad

cml387 · 18-06-2011 11:26pm

Leo would be my ideal boss.

It would be nice to go in with some mega problem and just say..

"..there's this thing,Leo...."

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 18-06-2011 11:29pm

it's good for a couple of seasons but after a while it doesn't even try to pretend to be a drama and descends into blatant democratic party propoganda

mikemac · 18-06-2011 11:31pm

You'll notice a change from Season 4 when Aaron Sorkin had left, a lot of the smart snappy dialogue was missing

Still excellent.

It's makes zero attempt to be balanced, you'd swear the Republican party were monsters from Season 1-5.
The Left Wing

cml387 · 18-06-2011 11:34pm

mikemac wrote: »

You'll notice a change from Season 4 when Aaron Sorkin had left, a lot of the smart snappy dialogue was missing

Still excellent.

It's makes zero attempt to be balanced, you'd swear the Republican party were monsters from Season 1-5.
The Left Wing

It is a Democrat wet dream to a certain extent,but towards the end it stormed back with a very sympathetic Republican candidate in Alan Alda.

johnny_ultimate · 18-06-2011 11:36pm

I'm just working through it at the moment - recently finished season three. It's not the best show I've ever watched, but it's still fascinating viewing, mostly for the dialogue (it amazes me Sorkin wrote the vast majority of episodes in the first few seasons - the man is a walking wit machine).

It does feel stretched at 22 episodes per season would be my main criticism. Definitely felt dragged out in Season 3 at times. And not all the characters work - a main in series one was dropped without nary a reference and with good cause, and I'm not sure what to make of Ainsley Hayes. But it can be very funny at times, most of the cast are superb (Sheen and Janney notable highlights, and Mary Louise Parker gets an awesome supporting role later on) and it's rarely less than unusually smart, intelligent and engaging television. Often times it goes beyond that - the season two finale is some of the most astonishing TV I've ever seen - but so far I'm glad I've committed to the time investment.

mikemac · 18-06-2011 11:45pm

I agree with the above, amazing television

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaUPDYXQUtw

For Season Seven

I read several places that the writers had planned for Arnold Vinick to win the election as viewers would not expect this, not with the writing being so pro Democrat. It's only when the actor playing Leo died they changed the script to let Santos win

Not sure if it's true but I can believe it

cjmcork · 19-06-2011 9:34am

mikemac this is true - final gift for the fans........and also interesting fact (apparently) - some of the advisors for the last series were actual Obama advisors and as time goes by, the amount of things that happened on the show that have happened since it finished are nuts like

Mrs. Bartlett appearing on Sesame Street - Michelle Obama has done that!......obviously other stuff too, but that's the nuttiest of them all!

OP, it's a cracking series, Josh is my fav and I loved his 'relationship' with Donna; loved Ainsley, but Mary Louise Parker got on my wick........Janeane Garofalo was excellent in series 7! Happy viewing!

WesternNight · 19-06-2011 11:33am

Would recommend The West Wing without hesitation. The first 4 seasons are probably the best TV I've ever seen. After that, you do notice a change, but it was watchable for me up until season 7 and I have to admit I struggled through that one. It wasn't 'the west wing' anymore at that stage, for obvious reasons.

Toby is my favourite character, but without each of the other characters, he'd go down like a lead balloon. I've watched the whole boxset through twice and, like others have said, would do so again any time.

Biggins · 19-06-2011 11:35am

Paully D wrote: »

I've never watched it but I'm looking for a new series to watch after recently finishing The Wire, The Sopranos and catching up on Entourage (now waiting for the new season to be released next month).

Is it worth watching?

Is it what? ABSOLUTELY - no hesitation.
THEE best TV program ever written - and I say that as a sci-fi fan and as Firefly/Serenity fanatic too.
The show itself is a master class on how such subsequent things should be made.

Brilliant cast, twice as brilliant writing and great story lines intertwined with great characters and their individual personalities/quirks.

I bought the blue presidential box of the complete series and watch it now at least once a year.
I've yet to see any others shows match it in awesomeness (but some have come close: The Wire, The Shield just to name two...)

The creators of the show by the way, were inventors of a number of camera techniques that have been copied relentlessly since.
All would be explained on the extra features of a good complete box set.

Arron Sorkin (original writer) is a god when it comes to writing by the way!
He left late in the series and sometimes it shows BUT even then, the show maintains its quality nearly to the previous quality - and is still better than others on TV subsequently or at the time.
As the new writers got to grips with the show and cast, they too once again created some brilliant writing and by the last season nears the end, you can't get the dvd's into your drive quick enough to see whats going to happen next.

Enjoy?
You certainly will.

Biggins · 19-06-2011 11:40am

mikemac wrote: »

For Season Seven
I read several places that the writers had planned for Arnold Vinick to win the election as viewers would not expect this, not with the writing being so pro Democrat. It's only when the actor playing Leo died they changed the script to let Santos win
Not sure if it's true but I can believe it

Yes, thats true - its explained in the extras of the blue presidential box set.

Kiith · 20-06-2011 10:47am

Probably the best dialogue in any show i've ever watched. Season's 1-4 especially had soem fantastic, snappy dialogue. The casting was also perfect. All the main cast were perfect, and i they all did a fantastic job. I've still not seen the last season, but am watching it again, currently on season 3.

Mr E · 20-06-2011 10:55am

I bought the box set last year (curse bargain alerts!) and its gathering dust. Haven't watched a single episode. I think this will be my next marathon show. I'll watch the first disc by the end of the week.

WesternNight · 20-06-2011 10:59am

Mr E wrote: »

I bought the box set last year (curse bargain alerts!) and its gathering dust. Haven't watched a single episode. I think this will be my next marathon show. I'll watch the first disc by the end of the week.

Part of me is slightly jealous of you, getting to experience it for the first time

(The rest of me is less insane, honest!)

Biggins · 20-06-2011 3:20pm

Mr E wrote: »

...I'll watch the first disc by the end of the week.

LOL
Warning, it will suck you right in and not let you go till the end!

amacachi · 20-06-2011 5:03pm

Just started it now, better be good.

Biggins · 20-06-2011 5:46pm

mikemac wrote: »

I agree with the above, amazing television
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaUPDYXQUtw

The previous episodes/storyline lead up to that scene and the next scenes itself, were one of the highlights of the entire series.
Absolute brilliance and SOOO fitting the tune and atmosphere. Pure class.

VinLieger · 20-06-2011 7:22pm

Biggins wrote: »

The previous episodes/storyline lead up to that scene and the next scenes itself, were one of the highlights of the entire series.
Absolute brilliance and SOOO fitting the tune and atmosphere. Pure class.

I still get chills whenever i watch the ending of 2 Cathedrals(season 2 finale).
By far the best series on tv, i am yet to find something that equals it and thats coming from another sci fi fandoy that worships firefly, doctor who etc....
Watch it!!! The writing and characters are so fantastic that if you dont watch it or refuse to you arent a fan of good television in my books

Biggins · 20-06-2011 7:35pm

VinLieger wrote: »

I still get chills whenever i watch the ending of 2 Cathedrals(season 2 finale)....

Aye, still moves me, considering the reason for the Cathedral later in the president life.
...And the symbolism, some very strong words (LOL) and meaning of the later scene of a cleaner cleaning up, etc of a single cigarette butt...
(Trying not to give anything away)

VinLieger wrote: »

...The writing and characters are so fantastic that if you dont watch it or refuse to you arent a fan of good television in my books

Dito.

mikemac · 20-06-2011 7:39pm

I love this one too from Season Five

Pretty haunting.
Lisa Gerrard is probably best know for her work on Gladiator with Ridley Scott

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfweVIG6wbA

Another favourite was the nightclub scence and they played the Massive Attack-Angel tune

It's quite long, far longer then this clip. The music works great
From Season 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbetgsqIdMo

Goes without saying don't play them if you've not seen Season 4 or 5

amacachi · 20-06-2011 9:08pm

3 episodes in and I have to admit I'm not very impressed so far. Way top predictable and cheesy for my liking.

WesternNight · 20-06-2011 9:23pm

amacachi wrote: »

3 episodes in and I have to admit I'm not very impressed so far. Way top predictable and cheesy for my liking.

They're just the 'getting to know the characters' episodes. Let it settle in.

Actually the one thing that really annoyed me about the pilot (and the couple of episodes after, I think) was the constant background music. It didn't fit at all. But they fixed that and all was good. There are probably other small things as well that they changed/fixed in the very beginning as well so give it a chance

Biggins · 20-06-2011 9:26pm

Yea, the music can be *correction* WAS great at times indeed but the writing... Excellent!
Remember the lead up to the following scene and the BRILLIANT scene itself?
(That is very much quoted the world over when people discuss the daftness of some things)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zhNiGlogQ

Rhetorical question. How can one forget!
I miss it now, I'm getting sentimental.
I might even dig out the boxset yet again.

Theboinkmaster · 20-06-2011 10:17pm

IMO quite simply the best TV show ever made. I've watched the entire 7 season run about 4times at this stage and every time i finish i swear i could just go back to season 1 and re-watch it immediately.

Awesome entertainment.

the west wing · 20-06-2011 10:19pm

The West Wing?? I'm pretty indifferent towards it

Agent Smith · 20-06-2011 10:48pm

the west wing wrote: »

The West Wing?? I'm pretty indifferent towards it

I Watched at the pleasure of President Bartlet...

Ellian · 20-06-2011 10:55pm

WesternNight wrote: »

Toby is my favourite character

Mine to although

I was spitting nails at what they did with his character. It was like the writers had no idea who Toby Ziegler was - even the crappy attempt to justify it with the sub plot about the brother didn't sell it for me. Toby would never in a million years have done what he did. I read somewhere that Richard Schiff had to tell himself that Toby was taking the fall for someone else.

WesternNight · 20-06-2011 11:26pm

Ellian wrote: »

Mine to although
I was spitting nails at what they did with his character. It was like the writers had no idea who Toby Ziegler was - even the crappy attempt to justify it with the sub plot about the brother didn't sell it for me. Toby would never in a million years have done what he did. I read somewhere that Richard Schiff had to tell himself that Toby was taking the fall for someone else.

Absolutely. Which was another reason I could have finished watching before it actually ended.

Plus,

I also had an issue with the way Leo was portrayed in Season 7. They turned him into a bumbling liability, and when John Spencer died, I felt it didn't have the impact it should have had when Leo died.

G_R · 21-06-2011 12:28am

The West Wing, is in my opinion, the best show ever made for television.

You get to know the characters so, so well and when

they leave or die, weather in the story or in real life

I was actually upset. That is the kind of effect the series had on me.

After reading this thread and watching those clips, I'm going to start watching it again from scratch. This will be my third time. The Season two finale is nothing short of amazing. I don't know how anyone who was watching it on TV in America was able to wait the 7 or 8 months until the next season was out. The series mastered the art of suspense.

As others have said, seasons 1-4 are without a doubt the best. But 5-7 are still very watchable. The whole series is ridiculously addictive. I remember I was in TY when I first started watching the Series and I spent my entire Easter break watching it. I resented having to go to work.

Make sure you watch it and stick with it, even if you dont like the first couple of episodes. What follows is nothing short of amazing.

VinLieger · 21-06-2011 12:53am

amacachi wrote: »

3 episodes in and I have to admit I'm not very impressed so far. Way top predictable and cheesy for my liking.

I was the same, thought it was silly, but then somewhere around episode 5-6 it hit me that iI was watching something truly unique and brilliant.

There is really only one problem i have with the series and that is that i can never watch it for the first time again but that wont stop me from watching it over and over start to finish or simply watching the season 2 finale due to its shear epicness.
I dont currently own the boxset but due to a certain crackdown of a couple of streaming sites in the past few weeks im deffinitely gonna buy it soon.

Biggins · 21-06-2011 1:05am

VinLieger wrote: »

I was the same, thought it was silly, but then somewhere around episode 5-6 it hit me that iI was watching something truly unique and brilliant..

Couldn't agree more.
You have to keep with it till some complexities become clearer and characters have had a chance to show their full range of quirks and sides to them.
Any new viewers out there just starting to watch it? Trust me, its worth it.
(Try looking up the masses of awards the show got over the years!)

VinLieger wrote: »

...There is really only one problem i have with the series and that is that i can never watch it for the first time again ...

Same here.
The power of surprise and awe sometimes is always best the first time around.
That said, on the second or third viewing I caught some other stuff I missed the first time (too busy enjoying it and laughing at times (one character in fishing gear in their office!) LOL) - so it was still great and I appreciated it even more so.

VinLieger wrote: »

...that wont stop me from watching it over and over start to finish or simply watching the season 2 finale due to its shear epicness.

Same here.
Jeasus, I couldn't get disk one of season three in the drive quick enough!

amacachi · 21-06-2011 1:18am

I just couldn't believe how silly episodes 2 and 3 of the first season are though.
Episode 2,

yer man who gets shot down, the only way they could've made that more obvious would be to mention that he was 2 days away from retirement.

Episode 3,

the "these bullets are called cop-killers so we'll ban them" thing.

Ugh.

JonathanAnon · 21-06-2011 1:25am

it's a very good series, but it has certain persistant irritants that really bugged me.. Those scenes where the staff walk through the White House with needlessly rapid dialogue are more about the scriptwriters trying to be clever rather than contributing to the show.. really annoying.. Also couldnt stand that Bradley Whitford guy.. and they way that every week one or more of the characters was saying the phrase "oh x-character can be here, he has a THING" and this would be repeated throughout that episode, and we would be expected to find this hilarious..

Mr E · 21-06-2011 7:18am

I haven't read any spoilers or series synopses, but I'm friggin' DYING to see what this Two Cathedrals episode is all about (and why its so highly rated).

No spoilers. I'll get there.

Beruthiel · 21-06-2011 8:20am

A friend gave me all the seasons, I decided to watch the first one on a Friday evening. That was my weekend gone. Just couldn't stop watching, 2.5 days gone.
I'm waiting for the memory of it to fade just so I can watch it again!

Biggins · 21-06-2011 8:32am

Beruthiel wrote: »

A friend gave me all the seasons, I decided to watch the first one on a Friday evening. That was my weekend gone. Just couldn't stop watching, 2.5 days gone.
I'm waiting for the memory of it to fade just so I can watch it again!

LOL Been there too so many times! :pac:
I know what you mean.

Ellian · 21-06-2011 9:00am

Just personal opinion but there was a special episode they did after 9-11 - it was thrown together in haste and is out of the timeline sequence. It's truly, truly terrible, bordering on offensive. I think it is at the start of Season 3, but I would beg you to skip over it. You are not missing a thing.

Otacon · 21-06-2011 9:05am

Ellian wrote: »

Just personal opinion but there was a special episode they did after 9-11 - it was thrown together in haste and is out of the timeline sequence. It's truly, truly terrible, bordering on offensive. I think it is at the start of Season 3, but I would beg you to skip over it. You are not missing a thing.

'Isaac and Ishmael'? What was terrible about it?

cjmcork · 21-06-2011 9:11am

OP, if you don't LOVE it by the time Celestial Navigation is on, I'll eat someone's hat, you'll never hear 'root canal' the same way again! and what about that

secret plan to fight inflation!!!!

Ellian · 21-06-2011 9:12am

Otacon wrote: »

'Isaac and Ishmael'? What was terrible about it?

Erm. Things like Leo saying to the Muslim guy "that's just the price you pay.." A price that presumably an Italian American or Irish American does not have to pay. Mrs. Bartlet saying that the tension in the Middle East goes back to the Isaac and Ishmael of the title. Sam Seaborn stating that terrorism has never achieved anything - not exactly an accurate statement. "Keep accepting more than one idea???". It was a smug, partronising civics lesson, given from a point of view of ignorance and IMO besmirched the rep of an otherwise fine TV show

Biggins · 21-06-2011 10:27am

Ellian wrote: »

Just personal opinion but there was a special episode they did after 9-11 - it was thrown together in haste and is out of the timeline sequence. It's truly, truly terrible, bordering on offensive. I think it is at the start of Season 3, but I would beg you to skip over it. You are not missing a thing.

Ellian wrote: »

Erm. Things like Leo saying to the Muslim guy "that's just the price you pay.." A price that presumably an Italian American or Irish American does not have to pay. Mrs. Bartlet saying that the tension in the Middle East goes back to the Isaac and Ishmael of the title. Sam Seaborn stating that terrorism has never achieved anything - not exactly an accurate statement. "Keep accepting more than one idea???". It was a smug, partronising civics lesson, given from a point of view of ignorance and IMO besmirched the rep of an otherwise fine TV show

Its was an indication and record of the time of that period felt by a certain number of people.
We might not agree with some of the ideas but it still stands as views and attitudes held by others elsewhere.
I have to disagree though as well in that I WOULD watch it. It was an eye opener as to how with the use of slightest of slights, we often allow sub-consiously ourselves to fall into not good patterns of behaviour and attitudes towards others we normally associate with or fall across in life.

Ellian · 21-06-2011 10:35am

it occured to me after I had written the above that you should never tell someone not to read or watch something - because you just come accross as patronising. But I believe that if you do watch it, it will damage to some extent your enjoyment of some of the characters in future (especially Leo for me)

While I can accept that there are many different responses to 9-11, and one that was written so close to the event might be more emotional, but I still think it obfuscated and was deliberately naieve, in that it did nothing to examine or discuss ides

like US foreign policy, blowback etc

Just my opinion though.

Biggins · 21-06-2011 10:55am

Ellian wrote: »

...While I can accept that there are many different responses to 9-11, and one that was written so close to the event might be more emotional, but I still think it obfuscated and was deliberately naieve, in that it did nothing to examine or discuss ides
like US foreign policy, blowback etc
Just my opinion though.

Given the program had only less than an hour to express the feelings of the time, of course not everything could be examinied in detail. Only some matter could be reference pointed/raised and left it up for the viewer towards further discussion and thought.
It was what it was, for the time that it went out and that should be taken into account in later times.
As such it stands as a record of feelings of the past.

The use of Leo I assume was deliberate.
(They had to use someone in all honestly)
Leo was of the old guard type/thinking era. He was a person that was grappling with the ways of a new world where fighting a war to him previously involved trenches, military vehicles and a clearer defined enemy.
His character use had many levels to it and also helped to possibly highlight/raise other complexities of the situation at the time.

Ellian · 21-06-2011 11:50am

Biggins wrote: »

His character use had many levels to it and also helped to possibly highlight/raise other complexities of the situation at the time.

I actually think it did exactly the opposite. As did the whole episode.

For example to even think of explaining away the complexities of Middle East tensions and why US involvement in the region may result in terrorist attachks with the answer "Isaac and Ishmael" - i.e. that it is a conflict that goes all the way back to Abraham and the patricarchs and has nothing at all to do with anything that happened in the region post 1919 was extremely lazy at best and deliberately obfuscating at worst.

At the end of the day it's just a hastily written episode for a TV show, so not big deal, I am merely observing that I thought it was badly written and that it took a small amount of the lustre away from previously extremely enjoyable characters. I did keep watching though - for another 5 seasons.

Biggins · 21-06-2011 12:03pm

Ellian wrote: »

I actually think it did exactly the opposite. As did the whole episode.
For example to even think of explaining away the complexities of Middle East tensions and why US involvement in the region may result in terrorist attacks with the answer "Isaac and Ishmael" - i.e. that it is a conflict that goes all the way back to Abraham and the patricarchs and has nothing at all to do with anything that happened in the region post 1919 was extremely lazy at best and deliberately obfuscating at worst.
At the end of the day it's just a hastily written episode for a TV show, so not big deal, I am merely observing that I thought it was badly written and that it took a small amount of the lustre away from previously extremely enjoyable characters. I did keep watching though - for another 5 seasons.

Well its just one episode and even then, if the we differ over the matter, the acting was still great and was based around views of the time. I though it was good written at least from the point that it helped explain why some have the Americanised views, they might have.
The main point of the episode I think was to get across that people that supposedly look the same or come from supposedly the same cultural background, are not actually the same and/or have the same views as those that would do wrong (what we consider to be wrong) at times - and that all should not be held accountable or responsible for the actions of a few that have gone astray.
(...But thats a whole big discussion in itself)

Glad to see you stuck with it too the end. It was a hell of a ride.
I'm glad that it ended when it did - though I miss it.
I would have hate to have seen it fizzle out in a long lingering death.

The West Wing *Spoilers*

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The West Wing Spoilers