EDISION mini argus combo got back 7 day epg.

swoofer · 24-05-2011 9:02am #1

Why has my mini argus lost the 7 day epg on DTT??

I have got it back now but still no programme synopsis but a happy chappy. Dont ask me what I done as I kept getting sidetracked as I was messing.

gb--

JDxtra · 24-05-2011 9:44am

Is it RTE NL problem that you are using an uncertified box?

The Cush · 24-05-2011 9:49am

I'm using an uncertified receiver, no problems here.

JDxtra · 24-05-2011 10:17am

Same here - and I accept that risk - but the OP was pinning the blame unfairly on RTENL.

swoofer · 24-05-2011 11:41am

I was hoping someone would have a workaround.

And as it was working quite well for the past 18 months and now stopped I can only blame RTENL. They have obiviously changed something in the coding and I quite sure they are aware that people have bought the argus. I

And when they knock out a few more boxes ........

gb--

Apogee · 24-05-2011 11:44am

GBCULLEN wrote: »

In addition RTENL were spouting off about using MPEG2 and people bought sets on that premise.

When?

swoofer · 24-05-2011 11:55am

thanks for replies

back in 2008. here is a snip

"The Trial did test MPEG4 on one of the MUX but in the main the test was of MPEG2 multiplex."

I am going to sit tight for at least a year and see what combos come on market. I will have to live with current epg. At least I dont need sly anymore.

gb--

ps but if they muck HD with unnecessary DOGS, which they will, ahh thats another story.

Apogee · 24-05-2011 11:59am

GBCULLEN wrote: »

thanks for replies

back in 2008. here is a snip

"The Trial did test MPEG4 on one of the MUX but in the main the test was of MPEG2 multiplex."

I am going to sit tight for at least a year and see what combos come on market. I will have to live with current epg. At least I dont need sly anymore.

That trial was run by BT Ireland on behalf of DCENR.

RTÉNL have neither intimated nor "spouted off" that they would be using MPEG2.

Have you tried deleting the DTT channels and rescanning?

kierank01 · 24-05-2011 12:01pm

I plugged my nova-t stick into my laptop yesterday, and VLC seemed to be able to see the epg data.

When I plugged it back into my vu+duo, there was missing entries.

It seems to be ok today.

STB · 24-05-2011 12:04pm

GBCullen

MPEG4 has been used full time since August 2008. Prior to that there were DCMNR tests that lasted over a year of both MPEG2 and MPEG4 content. The encrypted content via Conax was all MPEG4.

MPEG4 usage is widely know since Feb 2008 when the min spec was first published.

Your problem with the Edision Argus 2n1, an uncertified receiver is because of just that. Its not RTE's fault. I have several combo boxes, none of which behave the way of the Edision. It should be easy to find a solution to. Straight off I am wondering what firmware you have on it ? Is it "unoffcial" firmware like ILTV ???? If so you must realise that "unofficial coders" do mess with stuff that whilst fixing "unoffcial problems" like for example the usage of a Sky card, inadvertently drop stuff or mess up other settings.

Go get the latest OFFICIAL firmware or the last one that worked for you and you will be fine. German/European unoffcial coders dont test Irish DTT reactions.

If it is official firmware on it, then deleting the channels and rescanning will not reset the box to default. 9 time out of ten this is the problem - factory reset - or return to default mode is an option in the menu.

watty · 24-05-2011 12:25pm

Since 2007 it was obvious the spec would be MPEG4 and HD.

RTE NL have done nothing strange. They are running a standard DVB EPG unlike Freesat.

LG 42LD450 TV and DVBviewer on PC are OK.

RTE are not deliberately trying to "knock out" uncertified gear. They are not a Pay TV company trying to lock out "dodgy boxes". As far as they are concerned the more stuff that works the better.

Unlike UK the spec is public and accessible and designed by more than one country. (Nordig 2.2 and MHEG5). CI+ now also mandates MHEG5

Gerry Wicklow · 24-05-2011 12:57pm

My Ferguson Ariva lost EPG and Now/Next data. A hard reboot (mains off) restored it to normal.

Digital Satellite TV · 24-05-2011 1:02pm

From our testing, it's working on the edision argus mini. pull up the EPG, green button for options, press more and scroll accross and you get tomorow's shows etc

can also select schedule and it give more traditional 7 day EPG menu.

Apogee · 24-05-2011 1:12pm

watty wrote: »

RTE NL have done nothing strange. They are running a standard DVB EPG unlike Freesat.

There was some small change yesterday to the stream yesterday . On one receiver I noticed the 'now and next' wasn't appearing but the 7-day EPG was still OK. However, it should be back to normal today.

reaper180 · 24-05-2011 1:14pm

Digital Satellite TV wrote: »

From our testing, it's working on the edision argus mini. pull up the EPG, green button for options, press more and scroll accross and you get tomorow's shows etc

can also select schedule and it give more traditional 7 day EPG menu.

that work fine for me but when i press info nothing comes up on the epg

Macy0161 · 24-05-2011 2:30pm

reaper180 wrote: »

that work fine for me but when i press info nothing comes up on the epg

Noticed this ok the last couple of days, although RTE were never as good as, TG4 for example, at populating this.

swoofer · 24-05-2011 3:34pm

Ok got it sorted but still no programme synopsis, which was very useful, it is on an old TNT box and a Freeview HD box.

And nice to know something changed in the stream!!

gb--

fat-tony · 24-05-2011 3:45pm

Apogee wrote: »

There was some small change yesterday to the stream yesterday . On one receiver I noticed the 'now and next' wasn't appearing but the 7-day EPG was still OK. However, it should be back to normal today.

Can you elaborate on what changed and why it should be back today?

Apogee · 24-05-2011 3:51pm

fat-tony wrote: »

Can you elaborate on what changed and why it should be back today?

Don't know as I didn't check. But if there were problems on different models of receivers simultaneously, then it stands to reason that they must have changed something.

Given the vagaries of DVB and how different receivers interpret the data in the stream (like the Philips TVs dropping the radio channels), you could be a long time searching.

fat-tony · 24-05-2011 4:31pm

Ok - a problem in my interpretation of what you had written.;)

You presumably inferred that there was a change in the data stream based on what you had seen on the receivers (reasonable), whereas I thought you had empirical data about the issue and that you had information (from a source in RTENL?) that it should be corrected today.

STB · 24-05-2011 4:49pm

Throw into the mix the people needless fascination of having to upgrade to the latest version of firmware, which most of the time is "unofficial" and often for purposes of no use to Ireland or indeed 28.2 and you have a room full of knotted cables to sift through!

Apogee · 24-05-2011 4:49pm

No connection with anyone in RTÉNL. I'm not part of the 'golden circle'!

Apogee · 24-05-2011 4:52pm

STB wrote: »

Throw into the mix the people needless fascination of having to upgrade to the latest version of firmware, which most of the time is "unofficial" and often for purposes of no use to Ireland or indeed 28.2 and you have a room full of knotted cables to sift through!

I don't see anything posted to suggest people were using unofficial firmware.

It's not like RTÉNL haven't done some non-standard stuff with the DVB streams in the past.

STB · 24-05-2011 5:07pm

Apogee wrote: »

I don't see anything posted to suggest people were using unofficial firmware.

It's not like RTÉNL haven't done some non-standard stuff with the DVB streams in the past.

I dont see anything to suggest that RTE have changed anything in the streams........

On the boxes I have, all is fine.

Apogee · 24-05-2011 5:08pm

And that suggests people are using unofficial firmware how?

STB · 24-05-2011 5:13pm

In my experience, yes. Messing with menu options is my second question normally.

Eitherway, between the 2, they probably account for 90% of problems posted here.

I wouldnt just assume that something has changed in how the transport stream is presented that truncates the EIT from specific boxes! That would have to be one special DVB stream! That would be have a very low probability, comparatively.

Apogee · 24-05-2011 5:18pm

I'm using official firmware. I checked out someone else's Edision running official firmware and it showed a similar problem. If this was happening on one model of receiver, fair enough. But for it to have happened on different models simultaneously is not merely coincidence.

swoofer · 24-05-2011 6:49pm

ditto, I have argus, quite old, neighbour got a brand new one yesterday, on my recommend, both have lost the synopsis bit. Its been re-booted etc etc and both have official firmware. Maybe it will come back after official launch.

gb--

fat-tony · 24-05-2011 7:06pm

Was away for a couple of hours (having a life hee, hee!). I've had a look at the EIT streams to see if there has been any significant change. The only things of note I can see are that the programme descriptions have, if anything, become more verbose;) There are extended descriptions attached to some programmes and the descriptors are spread over two or three entries in some cases.
The carousels are not, in all cases, in strict date order, but all events are numbered, dated and timed so that the firmware in the receiver can put them in sequence. For example the carousel for RTE Two has the current running and next programme as the first two in the sequence (as would be expected), then the next entry is for 28/05 and so on. The data for the 24th (prior to the current time) follows the 29th.
But the data is all there and it is up to the STB or idTV to order it properly.

STB · 24-05-2011 7:33pm

Okay. Now that I think of it, it sounds like the edision is not calling/loading the DTT EIT data immediately and is only loading it when the station is entered. This is normallly only a few seconds though. The memory should be able to load it within a few seconds.

One way to test this notion.

Put the box on a sat channel. Now disconnect the box from the mains.

When you switch it back it should default to that last sat channel watched. Now enter the EPG, if you scroll up within the EPG do you only see now and next on the DTT ? Pressing okay on the channel will load the 7 day epg from EIT. Theoretically this should also populate the programme info. So pressing info when out of the EPG twice now displays that programme info ?

If it failing - What stage is it failing at ? Most boxes follow this sequence. Tell me if its different on the Edision.

Macy0161 · 26-05-2011 8:56am

7 page epg there for me last night, but programme synopsis still missing. gbcullen, if you get it sorted via anything other than it just returning, could you post back, please?

simatoel · 26-05-2011 12:47pm

The synopsis has gone missing on the edision mini, but only from the DTT channels. It's still there on satellite channels, such as it is with only now/next programs listed. As It worked fine for the last couple of years or so, it is a certainty that something has changed in the stream or the manner in which the EPG is coded. Perhaps this is a difference in technical spec between RTENL MHEG and the version which the Edision is designed to work with, or perhaps the RTENL spec now uses extensions which were not coded into the original edision spec. I dont know enough about how its done, but someone somewhere in RTENL changed something, and the result is blank info panes on the Edision, making the box less attractive over 'approved' boxes. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for RTENL to revert to the version of MHEG which was previously compatible with the Edision, suppliers of approved boxes will be delighted though, as they've ponied up big time for approval stickers, now there's one less full featured non approved box to be had.

fat-tony · 26-05-2011 3:07pm

EPG information is not contained in the MHEG stream. It is carried in the standard DVB EIT stream. Still OK on my Sony TV, and various DTT boxes and PC software (DVBviewer). I'm not sure why there seems to be an issue with the edision box?

The Cush · 26-05-2011 3:16pm

simatoel wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for RTENL to revert to the version of MHEG which was previously compatible with the Edision,

They have never used MHEG-5 for the epg, there was a plan for it some years ago and a short green button test last summer but nothing since.

simatoel · 30-05-2011 10:59am

I stand corrected. What is certain is that some thing has changed in the way RTENL or RTE are coding the Synopsis, The 7 day EPG is fine, And the power off test STB suggested earlier reloads it from now/next to full 7 day as described, but the synopsis does not show, just an asterisk and an underscore. The sysnopsis still works on satellite channels, BBC etc, and the RTE ones had been working up to recently, so it is not a change in the edision, rather a change in the data been transmitted. perhaps a control character inserted into the text, to which the edision but not others is sensitive. Dont have the tools or the knowledge to sniff the streams, but if some members like fat-tony are reading, perhaps you could compare the info from satellite channels to the RTE ones to see if there is some basic difference. Funny how it happened just before the launch day....

swoofer · 30-05-2011 11:08am

I am toying with the idea of trying a few different software versions as all my other tweaks failed. I have emailed RTENL as well but I am not holding my breath for a reply. And yes it just happened before the launch. Its a shame really as that was a nice feature.

gb--

simatoel · 30-05-2011 11:16am

Don't waste your time on the software versions, I've different versions on two boxes, no change there. Edision are unlikely to tweak the boxes for an unofficial market either. It has to be a small change in the way the stream is composed or the content is formatted. It may even be that the format was changed innocently to tighten up the spec, putting it outside the edisions ability to read it. Note that the Edision always had a character set problem, especially when confronted with accents and fadas in irish (check TG4 EPG). If the edision software can be updated to solve that, I suspect the other problem might disappear. I'm going to email a contact in RTE and see what he can find out.

STB · 30-05-2011 11:35am

@simatoel
Its something the Edision doesnt like specifically.

I have tested on a Clarketech, Technomate, Samsung TV and all are fine.

RTE will not be changing the stream to suit a non supported grey box.

Get onto Edision, record a 1 minute TS and email it to them. Take a photo of the screen scroll on the box showing the problem when it gets to programme info.

You might explain that the boxes are quite popular here and being sold openly for combined DTT and Sat reception.

fat-tony · 30-05-2011 5:08pm

simatoel wrote: »

I stand corrected. What is certain is that some thing has changed in the way RTENL or RTE are coding the Synopsis, The 7 day EPG is fine, And the power off test STB suggested earlier reloads it from now/next to full 7 day as described, but the synopsis does not show, just an asterisk and an underscore. The sysnopsis still works on satellite channels, BBC etc, and the RTE ones had been working up to recently, so it is not a change in the edision, rather a change in the data been transmitted. perhaps a control character inserted into the text, to which the edision but not others is sensitive. Dont have the tools or the knowledge to sniff the streams, but if some members like fat-tony are reading, perhaps you could compare the info from satellite channels to the RTE ones to see if there is some basic difference. Funny how it happened just before the launch day....

I've had a look at the current EIT stream and one I recorded a couple of months ago. Couple of differences, none of which will be helpful to you, probably:

The language setting, which is a string value, in the Short Event descriptor, has changed from "eng" to "ENG". This could be the problem. RTENL are again "making it up" as regards language codes. ISO 639-2 specifies language codes in lower case - "eng". Maybe the Edision is overly picky as regards "ENG"???

or

A new descriptor field (hex value 54) which is used to supply a Content Description (like news, music etc.) has been inserted before the existing descriptor field (hex value 4E) which is the Extended Event field which contains info about the programme which is the bit you seem to be missing.

The Extended Event field looks the same as the old one, except the language code again is "ENG" not "eng"!

Further digging around! Only the EIT streams for RTE One, RTE One+1 and RTEjr seem to have this "ENG" setting. All other services have the "eng" setting. Even the TG4 EIT stream has "eng" as the language setting for EPG info, although the main service information in the PAT stream still has the made-up language setting "iri", instead of the correct "gle" value.

Sam Russell · 30-05-2011 6:44pm

It might be interesting to note that on my box RTE 1 +1 is showing as having the 'scrambled' flag set. Does anyone else see that?

The Cush · 30-05-2011 7:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It might be interesting to note that on my box RTE 1 +1 is showing as having the 'scrambled' flag set. Does anyone else see that?

Yes on a Sony.

hadit2here · 30-05-2011 8:18pm

i have also emailed rte to see what has changed .... if we got a description of the change, we might be able to get a firmware change from an official source

fat-tony · 30-05-2011 8:21pm

hadit2here wrote: »

i have also emailed rte to see what has changed .... if we got a description of the change, we might be able to get a firmware change from an official source

See my post (#39) for details of the changes;)

STB · 30-05-2011 8:31pm

fat-tony wrote: »

See my post (#39) for details of the changes;)

PMT (Programme Map Table) via PSI/SI is per Nordig 2.0 according to specs I have read. I wonder....

fat-tony · 30-05-2011 8:50pm

STB wrote: »

PMT (Programme Map Table) via PSI/SI is per Nordig 2.0 according to specs I have read. I wonder....

Wonder what? You think there is something in the PMT that is upsetting the Edision? I'll have a look if you care to point me in some direction! I'm assuming the DVB specs are a superset of the Nordig specs and that references to eg. ISO 639 "trump" any local interpretations or made-up language codes by Nordig or RTENL;)

simatoel · 31-05-2011 10:17am

Excellent work F-T . My insider has indicated that the Saor people will not even respond to enquiries about non approved boxes, and worse, he's of the opinion that the tinkerings with the code were deliberate, to see if they could mess up grey boxes, but it might have been innocent too. I could email them your findings and ask for their reasons, or I could email edision these findings along with STB's suggestion of a minute of stream.
If it never worked, fine, but its so irritating that someone broke it, for whatever reason, and is unlikely to revert to the older stream which worked. He promised to dig a little more, so I'll wait and see. Approved suppliers paid huge cash for certification, maybe they are pressuring RTENL, who knows.

STB · 31-05-2011 11:19am

RTE have no interest in killing Grey boxes. They dont sell them. They do want as many people on analogue switched over to DTT as quick as possible to avoid complaints a year down the road with ASO.

Get onto Edision - its specific to them. Photos of the problem. I do not have the same problem on my 3 year old Clarketech Combo nor Technomate 6900. My Samsung LE530 TV is also fine.

Its an Edision problem and probably a simple firmware fix, once its not memory related. I would have thought pressing the i button continuously that it would call the data.

swoofer · 31-05-2011 11:28am

edison have a get out clause on their website, ie use of boxes in other countries not their problem.

"If the intended use of the 'argus mini' outside Germany please go in the country on the receiving characteristics of image and sound standards. Edision responsible for HDTV reception outside Germany not guarantee a trouble-free reception."

we are stuck but one never knows mabye RTENL might unbreak it again and they may have someone watching this board.

Thats the problem with digital one tweak can creat havoc, I can remember in uk when an upgrade busted thousands of boxes but 30 quid is fixable. argus cost me 140 euro and I like it, component, hdmi. etc.

gb-

simatoel · 31-05-2011 11:47am

STB wrote: »

RTE have no interest in killing Grey boxes. They do want as many people on analogue switched over to DTT as quick as possible to avoid complaints a year down the road with ASO...

I would have thought that, but then they did charge an arm and leg to suppliers of approved boxes, who maybe are pressurising them to show that unapproved boxes don't work. This is speculation on my part, but I trust my source's instinct and information. He was right before about the TV3 disappearance episode. They can't and won't interact with users/suppliers of grey boxes that are a fraction outside their spec. GBC is right also, Edision do have a disclaimer, but they were Ok to deal with before when I mailed on a tech issue. I'll give it a try.

fat-tony · 31-05-2011 12:55pm

I too, would doubt that RTENL would have any interest in causing problems for "grey" boxes, but also would have no interest in resolving issues that don't affect approved kit. By the way, the "ENG" has reverted back to "eng" on RTE One. On RTE One+1 the EPG stream is still showing "ENG" for some programmes and not for others. Strangely, it's not an exact copy of the RTE One EPG with the times advanced one hour as one might expect. For example, the Six-one news has a different title and different synopsis data on the two channels.

Apogee · 12-06-2011 11:15am

Did anyone who owns one of these boxes either contact Edision or send a stream to them for analysis? The same problem has been reported on the Ferguson combos.

EDISION mini argus combo got back 7 day epg.

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