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30% of political candidates must be female....

24567

Comments

  • #52
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    MadsL wrote: »
    That's what I meant. Could any mod split this thread and move to politics?
    www.boards.ie/search

    The politics forum have already had threads on nepotism especially Irish nepotism.


  • #53
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    MadsL wrote: »
    How do you figure that?
    Are you joking?


    Quotas mean women are competing with an advantage that has nothing to do with their merit and all to do with being the right gender which is clearly sexism. So if there is man with greater merit but the quota hasn't been met he will passed up for someone who just happens to be female.


  • #54
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Here's a good quota.

    100% of our political candidates must be honest, dedicated, intelligent and hard working.

    Affirmative action to artificially create equality is a waste of time.


  • #55
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Here's a good quota.

    100% of our political candidates must be honest, dedicated, intelligent and hard working.

    Affirmative action to artificially create equality is a waste of time.

    I'm more of the opinion that equality doesn't mean 50/50 gender balance, but that everyone has the chance regardless of gender.


  • #56
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,140 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    What process are you referring to exactly ? As far as I can see there has been lip service and no real effort to find out why women are not involved in politics to the extent males are. If you find the route cause then you can fix the issue with a real solutions.

    I was thinking more from the public perspective ... the public want the best person for the job not the best female.

    There has actually been extensive research done by the oireachtas committee on justice, defense, equality and women's rights on this area. Their report in 2009 came out with about 20 recommendations of which one was this area

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #57
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,140 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    exe.pat wrote: »
    First off, if a person wants a career in politics they should have to work as hard as everyone else. These quotas make women a special class, like a ruling class that have rights to positions regardless of their ability.

    The way these things have worked in other countries is that the women that are placed in these positions, are radical genderists.

    I would not be so opposed to it if a diverse section of the female population got these positions and the country wasn't in such a bad position economically.

    What countries has that happened in?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #58
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    There has actually been extensive research done by the oireachtas committee on justice, defense, equality and women's rights on this area. Their report in 2009 came out with about 20 recommendations of which one was this area
    A report largely written by Ivana Bacik as I recall.


  • #59
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I'm more of the opinion that equality doesn't mean 50/50 gender balance, but that everyone has the chance regardless of gender.

    I agree completely with that but I can see why people suggest there should be something done to get more women into politics. Like a few posters said earlier, Irish politics needs fresh blood in general and I would include a greater contribution from women as being part of that change.

    It is an oddity that Ireland has such poor levels of participation in politics from women. Particularly when you view how well educated Irish women are. I mean it is not as if they are being plucked from an oven for the first time in their lives. They are highly educated, intelligent people. So any move that increases the amount of highly educated, intelligent people seems like a positive move to me.

    I agree it should logically be the best people regardless of their gender, but maybe we need to go through a few years of quotas to get to the stage where we genuinely are represented by the best people possible. I don't think people could seriously say that there is not a culture that promotes a similar type of person in Irish political parties and that does not favour women. Now it doesn't favour a lot of people as there are lots of people on the outside looking in, so we need to get all of those people involved as well.

    I'm rambling a little, but I don't think this is necessarily as bad as some are saying in this thread. As long as it is a short term scheme, it should be fine.


  • #60
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    How long until 30% have to be whatever the PC name for black people is these days, etc etc.

    Haven't dragged up a Gathering card for a while..here we go.

    jeffythekitten.jpg


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  • #61
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    parker kent wrote: »
    As long as it is a short term scheme, it should be fine.
    Has anyone seen any evidence that the bill will mention a time limit? No mention of it in the coverage in the IT today or on RTE that I recall.


  • #62
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,140 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    iptba wrote: »
    A report largely written by Ivana Bacik as I recall.

    Yes; Jobyrne30 said there has been no attempts to find out why women do not get involved. Ivana was a rapporteur for the committee and did the research.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #63
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    We are on a slippery slope.


  • #64
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    parker kent wrote: »
    So any move that increases the amount of highly educated, intelligent people seems like a positive move to me.
    Who said it will do that? There may well be a use in that, but this proposal may, for example, simply mean more female relatives standing.

    To take a specific example: if you have two pots of people e.g. in a local party, with say ten men in one pot and three women in the other, imposing a gender quota doesn't seem to guarantee anything about increasing the amount of highly educated, intelligent people. It could in fact mean a very good candidate who might otherwise have been picked, doesn't get picked simply because of his gender.

    If the aim is to increase the amount of highly educated, intelligent people applying there are probably better ways of doing it.


  • #65
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    What countries has that happened in?

    Rwanda - 56.3 percent women representation

    Others (just a few!! :D )

    Afghanistan
    Albania
    Angola
    Argentina
    Armenia
    Bangladesh
    Belgium
    Bolivia
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Brazil
    Burkina Faso
    Burundi
    Costa Rica
    Djibouti
    Dominican Republic
    East Timor
    Ecuador
    Egypt
    Eritrea
    France
    Greece
    Guyana
    Honduras
    India
    Indonesia
    Iraq
    Italy
    Jordan
    Kenya
    Korea, Republic of
    Kyrgyzstan
    Lesotho
    Macedonia, former Yugoslav Republic (1993-)
    Mauritania
    Mexico
    Namibia
    Nepal
    Niger
    Pakistan
    Panama
    Paraguay
    Peru
    Philippines
    Poland
    Portugal
    Rwanda
    Senegal
    Serbia
    Sierra Leone
    Slovenia
    Somalia
    South Africa
    Spain
    Sudan
    Tanzania, United Republic of
    Uganda
    Uruguay
    Uzbekistan


  • #66
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    iptba wrote: »
    Who said it will do that? There may well be a use in that, but this proposal may, for example, simply mean more female relatives standing.

    It is logical that by increasing the talent pool, they increase the odds of getting greater numbers of intelligent people in the long-term. For many reasons we do not get many women in politics. We are missing out as there are obviously lots of talented women heading into other areas. Obviously the proposal has to be well executed to get the right people involved, but that should go without saying.


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  • #67
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    iptba wrote: »
    To take a specific example: if you have two pots of people e.g. in a local party, with say ten men in one pot and three women in the other, imposing a gender quota doesn't seem to guarantee anything about increasing the amount of highly educated, intelligent people. It could in fact mean a very good candidate who might otherwise have been picked, doesn't get picked simply because of his gender.

    This might be bad legislation - if you have a prospective candidate quota (x of each gender say or 3 + 7 in a 30% quota system) then you can still select on merit but you need to ensure the available pool includes the quota of women. Then the appropriate candidate is selected much as you cannot discriminate in a job interview. This ensures gender access but not slavish quotas for quotas sake.


  • #68
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    MadsL wrote: »
    This might be bad legislation - if you have a prospective candidate quota (x of each gender say or 3 + 7 in a 30% quota system) then you can still select on merit but you need to ensure the available pool includes the quota of women. Then the appropriate candidate is selected much as you cannot discriminate in a job interview. This ensures gender access but not slavish quotas for quotas sake.

    This is a decent proposal. My view on this thread has just been from a "get more women into politics" viewpoint. The actual proposal itself is not necessarily what I'm agreeing with. But I do think there needs to be something done to increase female participation in politics. The effect would be largely the same as when greater numbers of women joined the workforce. We are missing out on a lot of talented women who would make useful politicians.


  • #69
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,140 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    MadsL wrote: »
    Rwanda - 56.3 percent women representation

    Others (just a few!! :D )

    Afghanistan
    Albania
    Angola
    Argentina
    Armenia
    Bangladesh
    Belgium
    Bolivia
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Brazil
    Burkina Faso
    Burundi
    Costa Rica
    Djibouti
    Dominican Republic
    East Timor
    Ecuador
    Egypt
    Eritrea
    France
    Greece
    Guyana
    Honduras
    India
    Indonesia
    Iraq
    Italy
    Jordan
    Kenya
    Korea, Republic of
    Kyrgyzstan
    Lesotho
    Macedonia, former Yugoslav Republic (1993-)
    Mauritania
    Mexico
    Namibia
    Nepal
    Niger
    Pakistan
    Panama
    Paraguay
    Peru
    Philippines
    Poland
    Portugal
    Rwanda
    Senegal
    Serbia
    Sierra Leone
    Slovenia
    Somalia
    South Africa
    Spain
    Sudan
    Tanzania, United Republic of
    Uganda
    Uruguay
    Uzbekistan

    I was asking exe.pat really which of these countries have been dominated by radical genderists as per his statement

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #70
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    MadsL wrote: »
    This might be bad legislation - if you have a prospective candidate quota (x of each gender say or 3 + 7 in a 30% quota system) then you can still select on merit but you need to ensure the available pool includes the quota of women. Then the appropriate candidate is selected much as you cannot discriminate in a job interview. This ensures gender access but not slavish quotas for quotas sake.
    There's selection going on at the prospective candidate stage - to ensure you get your 3 women you may throw out good men purely based on their gender to reach your quota.


  • #71
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    There's selection going on at the prospective candidate stage - to ensure you get your 3 women you may throw out good men to reach your quota.

    To be honest, I don't really think this is the problem. I have have known a couple of professional, capable, intelligent women who were probably prepared to seek selection if asked. The problem is they are not asked, and they do not go forward because they know that so-and-so's brother is standing (for example) - he's a 'safe' cabdidate so not a hope in hell of getting the selection. The party needs these new blood candidates (tbh regardless of gender) but they see they haven't a hope to get selected.


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  • #72
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    parker kent wrote: »
    This is a decent proposal. My view on this thread has just been from a "get more women into politics" viewpoint. The actual proposal itself is not necessarily what I'm agreeing with. But I do think there needs to be something done to increase female participation in politics. The effect would be largely the same as when greater numbers of women joined the workforce. We are missing out on a lot of talented women who would make useful politicians.

    Why though? Why aren't they standing without quotas?
    iptba wrote: »
    There's selection going on at the prospective candidate stage - to ensure you get your 3 women you may throw out good men purely based on their gender to reach your quota.

    That would be my view too.
    MadsL wrote: »
    To be honest, I don't really think this is the problem. I have have known a couple of professional, capable, intelligent women who were probably prepared to seek selection if asked. The problem is they are not asked, and they do not go forward because they know that so-and-so's brother is standing (for example) - he's a 'safe' cabdidate so not a hope in hell of getting the selection. The party needs these new blood candidates (tbh regardless of gender) but they see they haven't a hope to get selected.

    Were they involved in politics, the women of whom you speak? If so then you raise a fair point. I just see this as a slide into mainstream quotas, e.g. I work in IT and have always worked in a very male dominated area, but have never found it to stop me progressing.


  • #73
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    MadsL wrote: »
    iptba wrote:
    There's selection going on at the prospective candidate stage - to ensure you get your 3 women you may throw out good men to reach your quota.
    To be honest, I don't really think this is the problem. <snip>
    Many people do see people losing out solely because of their gender as a problem. Indeed, I thought that was supposed the big selling point of feminism.


  • #74
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    iptba wrote: »
    Many people do see people losing out solely because of their gender as a problem. Indeed, I thought that was supposed the big selling point of feminism.

    not to mention our equality laws.


  • #75
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    people losing out solely because of their gender as a problem
    Let me turn it round then, do women have a right to be equally represented? Are they not 'losing out'?


  • #76
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    MadsL wrote: »
    Let me turn it round then, do women have a right to be equally represented? Are they not 'losing out'?

    Don't women as pretty much 50% of the electorate vote for their representatives? And therefore who represents them.

    On a wider note, I'm female and was very very heavily involved in politics when I was in college, it was my primary extra curricular activity, I loved it, enjoyed it so much it was great fun, be it canvassing, debating, meeting politicians, trips to the dail, whatever.

    however I led a very nomadic life after college and never settled anywhere to get involved despite living in one town for nine years, as work meant I was often travelling.

    The failure there imo is the inability of the political parties to take that student/college level interest, and in college it was about 60/40 male, and follow through on it, strangely enough I've only seen one of my fellow college politicos (and I was in UCD) go anywhere.

    On another note, is there an element here, that women in general don't have an interest in politics and/or are influenced by family trends and so don't make independant choices? Myself the the bf disagreed fundamentally on the candidates in our constituency in the GE, but I made my choice, and he made his. That won't necessarily apply to all women who may choose to follow a partner/family preference rather than independantly making up their minds?


  • #77
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Stheno wrote: »
    Why though? Why aren't they standing without quotas?

    I'd blame the long standing social norms in Irish politics. I've read some women in political parties claim that they just are not considered for running or that they are outside the inner circles where decisions are made.


  • #78
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    parker kent wrote: »
    I'd blame the long standing social norms in Irish politics. I've read some women in political parties claim that they just are not considered for running or that they are outside the inner circles where decisions are made.

    Fair enough point, but think of college politics, now this is just based on my experience but plenty of women are involved and run, so what happens after college?

    Is it a wider issue that after leaving college women find a greater domestic burden on them that precludes getting involved to a sufficient degree in college?

    Note this doesn't apply to me, I chose a career where I am constantly upskilling which takes a lot of my time (then very few politicians come from IT regardless of gender :) ) and I travel a lot.


  • #79
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Stheno wrote: »
    Fair enough point, but think of college politics, now this is just based on my experience but plenty of women are involved and run, so what happens after college?

    Is it a wider issue that after leaving college women find a greater domestic burden on them that precludes getting involved to a sufficient degree in college?

    Well they join parties dominated by older men. In college that is obviously not an issue. The domestic burden is an issue for some of course. But I'd link that to our social issues in general as well. If it became normal for a lot of women to be in politics, that would change as well.


  • #80
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    parker kent wrote: »
    Well they join parties dominated by older men. In college that is obviously not an issue. The domestic burden is an issue for some of course. But I'd link that to our social issues in general as well. If it became normal for a lot of women to be in politics, that would change as well.

    True, but how are parties now going to find the 30% of women they need?

    You need to get entrenched at a local level to move forward and given recent stats, women just are not involved. I for example would never get involved in local politics as I don't have the time or availability due to travel/work commitments to do so (not saying I am an ideal candidate) but given that I cannot pursue fixed time hobbies, or even attend events related to my profession due to work commitments, I could never be involved in politics at a local level.

    In college btw I was very involved with the main party itself, hence trips to the Dail and canvassing.


  • #81
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Politics in Ireland are local and political parties would not offer to do what they are doing anyway.

    Constituency parties etc are normally local family affairs and the same names turn up in party tickets.

    Enda Kenny himself inherited his seat from his Dad -so are we going to have a Kenny daughter inherit from him.

    Brendan Howlins Dad was a party & union activist in Wexford.

    Haughey, Colley & Fitzgerald were all students of UCD at the same time.

    And this us going to help democracy with political parties operating under a whip system.

    So is it fair to assume that our politicians are just dressing up what they are doing already.

    They are politians ffs - we should be a bit more cynical of their motives.

    Check this out

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Families_in_the_Oireachtas


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  • #82
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Stheno wrote: »
    True, but how are parties now going to find the 30% of women they need?

    You need to get entrenched at a local level to move forward and given recent stats, women just are not involved. I for example would never get involved in local politics as I don't have the time or availability due to travel/work commitments to do so (not saying I am an ideal candidate) but given that I cannot pursue fixed time hobbies, or even attend events related to my profession due to work commitments, I could never be involved in politics at a local level.

    In college btw I was very involved with the main party itself, hence trips to the Dail and canvassing.

    I'd prefer if they had early intervention schemes and did it slowly over time. Switching to 30% over night is liable to cause the usual nepotism and ill-suited candidates. I think using the college political parties is the way forward. As you say, the interest is there. So getting to them early is the way forward.


  • #83
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    parker kent wrote: »
    I'd prefer if they had early intervention schemes and did it slowly over time. Switching to 30% over night is liable to cause the usual nepotism and ill-suited candidates. I think using the college political parties is the way forward. As you say, the interest is there. So getting to them early is the way forward.

    Agree 100+ the parties need to capitalise on that interest, it's a shame they don't. Nurturing keen potential candidates of either gender at that level will result in a broader field, especially of women, given that they participate in higher numbers in politics whilst at college imo.


  • #84
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Yes; Jobyrne30 said there has been no attempts to find out why women do not get involved. Ivana was a rapporteur for the committee and did the research.

    Research, vested interest lobbing or just lip service? Any report that recommends discrimination as a solution isn't worth the paper it's written on.

    I'm sure other quota's can be added to subvert the democratic will of the people and will make our discredited political system look even worse. Is all that is needed a report written by a failed political entity with a vested interest to get the green light?

    I know some fat people who think the number obese TD's is not representative of the population and want that changed. I'm sure a representative of McDonnell's could lobby some open minded and impartial committee member to create some well researched reports outlining the benefit of having more obese politicians.


  • #85
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    To get elected you need a local party and support - being a candidate does not mean getting elected. Ask Ivana Bacik. :pac:

    If government was about ability we would have had Michael Smurfit, Tony O'Reilly and Michael O'Leary courted by politicians and used as advisors. Bill Cullen would be on the Board of FAS.


  • #86
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    Research, vested interest lobbing or just lip service? Any report that recommends discrimination as a solution isn't worth the paper it's written on.

    I'm sure other quota's can be added to subvert the democratic will of the people and will make our discredited political system look even worse. Is all that is needed a report written by a failed political entity with a vested interest to get the green light?

    I know some fat people who think the number obese TD's is not representative of the population and want that changed. I'm sure a representative of McDonnell's could lobby some open minded and impartial committee member to create some well researched reports outlining the benefit of having more obese politicians.

    Obesity is not grounds for inequality legislation in this country, gender is.


  • #87
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Yes; Jobyrne30 said there has been no attempts to find out why women do not get involved. Ivana was a rapporteur for the committee and did the research.

    But does that not assume that the Oireachtas is the law making body when in fact TD's are often little more than constituency errand boys.

    What John Bruton -ex Taoiseach and potential shoe in for President says is
    Former taoiseach John Bruton claimed today that the Republic is run by civil servants who use TDs and senators to administer their rule.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0106/breaking44.html

    How does government work.

    Civil Servants deal with lobby groups and interest groups etc and have their own agenda's. They feed their client demands to the politicians as initiatives.

    Sucessful lobby groups call the tune.

    So women may well be involved and active thru the lobby and interest group system. I think thats the case.

    If you are going to argue representation control lobby groups and their contact with government departments.

    Look at how the new government is playing out as not too much different then the last one.


  • #88
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    But does that not assume that the Oireachtas is the law making body when in fact TD's are often little more than constituency errand boys.

    What John Bruton -ex Taoiseach and potential shoe in for President says is


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0106/breaking44.html

    How does government work.

    Civil Servants deal with lobby groups and interest groups etc and have their own agenda's. They feed their client demands to the politicians as initiatives.

    Sucessful lobby groups call the tune.

    So women may well be involved and active thru the lobby and interest group system. I think thats the case.

    If you are going to argue representation control lobby groups and their contact with government departments.
    Yes, if one wants some sort of gender balance in politics, one could ensure than women's groups can only have a percentage more access than men's groups, for example.

    And perhaps also look whether there is an imbalance in how State money is given out to groups to see if that is imbalanced and/or creating imbalances.

    I don't expect they will do either of course. But I think those imbalances that do exist in favour of women's groups mean having gender quotas/discrimination isn't necessary - if one wants to look for marginalised groups, one might want to look further than simply gender and see whether quotas in other areas are more justified. Not that I'm a big fan of quotas but the argument for having them for gender rather than any other area isn't clear.


  • #89
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    iptba wrote: »
    Yes, if one wants some sort of gender balance in politics, one could ensure than women's groups can only have a percentage more access than men's groups, for example.

    democracy is based on arbitrary rules anyway and parties vote manage.
    And perhaps also look whether there is an imbalance in how State money is given out to groups to see if that is imbalanced and/or creating imbalances.

    Thats hardly the point of what Bruton said which was the Oireachtas and its members have little power and policy is set by Civil Servants and politicians are the least powerful in the situation of interest groups, civil servants and elected politicians.
    I don't expect they will do either of course. But I think those imbalances that do exist in favour of women's groups mean having gender quotas/discrimination isn't necessary - if one wants to look for marginalised groups, one might want to look further than simply gender and see whether quotas in other areas are more justified. Not that I'm a big fan of quotas but the argument for having them for gender rather than any other area isn't clear.

    I am not a fan either but it does very much look like a vote management and electoral finance management policy than a womens representation policy.Its about changing the rules to win elections.

    Maybe it is unconstitutional , but it seems very hairy to me for other reasons and is hardly tackling key issues identified by FG when not in power.


  • #90
    Condatis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭Condatis


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    Positive discrimination doesn't fix the problem. They need to find out what the route cause of the problem is and address that with reform.

    How is it a problem? The system works because people who want to put themselves forward for selection do so. Women do not put themselves forward in the same numbers as men do.

    The proposal is a nonsense and actually anti-democratic.


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  • #91
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Stheno wrote: »
    On another note, is there an element here, that women in general don't have an interest in politics and/or are influenced by family trends and so don't make independant choices? Myself the the bf disagreed fundamentally on the candidates in our constituency in the GE, but I made my choice, and he made his. That won't necessarily apply to all women who may choose to follow a partner/family preference rather than independantly making up their minds?

    I would agree somewhat with the lack of interest in politics, or at least the type of interest. Obviously there's not going to be a study funded by someone against quotas to support such a viewpoint. :pac:

    Another funny thing is that certainly Labour, and I've heard murmurings about other parties, seem to jump at a chance at a woman candidate when they can, so opportunities, as far as I can tell aren't limited, despite that being what this is meant to be opening up.


  • #92
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    amacachi wrote: »

    Another funny thing is that certainly Labour, and I've heard murmurings about other parties, seem to jump at a chance at a woman candidate when they can, so opportunities, as far as I can tell aren't limited, despite that being what this is meant to be opening up.

    are you implying that Ivana may be elected if she was looked at as a woman rather than a radical.

    Shall we see more of Joan Burton style allegations

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056206708


  • #93
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    CDfm wrote: »
    are you implying that Ivana may be elected if she was looked at as a woman rather than a radical.

    Shall we see more of Joan Burton style allegations

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056206708

    That wasn't what I was suggesting, though I agree with the sentiment. I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, just that the parties seem to be happy to put women candidates up when possible.


  • #94
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    amacachi wrote: »
    That wasn't what I was suggesting, though I agree with the sentiment. I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, just that the parties seem to be happy to put women candidates up when possible.

    When you look at the smaller parties take the -Greens for instance- with less available activists and support they will not have the candidate pool and could suffer financially from it. #

    It seems to me like the established parties are up to something.

    enda-kenny-gummidge1.jpg


  • #95
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I'm against this proposal- on a matter of principle. I do not believe that there should be quotas for any special interest groups, fullstop.

    If there is a perceived lack of women running for election- perhaps a better course of action would be to look at countries where there are far higher participation rates among women- such as the Scandinavian countries for examples. What is the driving factor that encourages a much higher participation rate among women there- both in politics but also in the workforce in general- its the provision of universal state sponsored childcare facilities. It would make far more sense to convert a chunk (or even all) of the current children's benefit into the direct provision of childcare along with a guarantee of a decent meal every day- than to simply hand over EUR140 a month for people to spend as they wish.

    In any event- the big issue in this country for women (and men with children) is that even where childcare facilities do exist- they are prohibitively expensive, and an active incentive to have one parent volunteer to opt out of the workforce to take care of children (increasingly this is men- given employment opportunities for women are paradoxically twice as good as for men for the first time ever (according to the ESRI).

    Another argument against all of this- is EU legislation. Insurance companies can no longer positively discriminate in favour of women drivers, nor pension providors in favour of men (who live on average almost 4 years less than women). How will a distortion such as this sit in gender neutral EU discrimination law?

    We need to look at the root causes behind fewer women participating in politics (and other professions) and tackle those.

    As a total aside- almost 80% of GPs who qualify in any given year are women- and within 10 years, almost half of these opt out of practising (presumably in order to raise a family and because of the perceived unfriendly hours involved in the job). We now have the second lowest number of GPs per head of population in the EU- and are even trying to persuade Cuba to send GPs here........ If the core reasons women aren't going into politics are the same reasons they are deserting medical posts- we would be killing two birds with the one stone- and doing a massive service to everyone in the country- both men and women- were we to tackle to underlying reasons which act as a disincentive to enter politics (or to leave any other profession)


  • #96
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    amacachi wrote: »
    I would agree somewhat with the lack of interest in politics, or at least the type of interest. Obviously there's not going to be a study funded by someone against quotas to support such a viewpoint. :pac:

    Another funny thing is that certainly Labour, and I've heard murmurings about other parties, seem to jump at a chance at a woman candidate when they can, so opportunities, as far as I can tell aren't limited, despite that being what this is meant to be opening up.

    Why exactly would Irish women be particularly uninterested in politics? What makes Irish women so different to other countries with a far, far higher participation rate. I simply don't agree there is a lack of interest. Like we said last night, women get involved with politics in universities. They don't just suddenly lose that interest.

    We have cultural and societal issues which lead to women not getting involved. A post doctorate could be done on the reasons so I'm not going to be able to cover them all here. This proposal is not going to be the silver bullet that ends all that, but maybe it will begin to get greater participation levels. I have no issue with short term schemes aimed at getting certain groups involved in important areas. It is no different in my view to access courses helping disadvantaged kids get into university.


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  • #97
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    parker kent wrote: »
    Like we said last night, women get involved with politics in universities. They don't just suddenly lose that interest.

    And the Womens Movement is not a very effective and powerful political lobby group :confused:


  • #98
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    CDfm wrote: »
    And the Womens Movement is not a very effective and powerful political lobby group :confused:

    Bit of a difference in being a lobby group and being the group that is being lobbied (i.e the government). I'm talking about women staying involved in running for office.


  • #99
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    parker kent wrote: »
    Bit of a difference in being a lobby group and being the group that is being lobbied (i.e the government). I'm talking about women staying involved in running for office.

    I posted earlier that John Bruton alleges that the real power is exercised by the civil servants "who use the Dail and Seanad to validate their rule"

    An ex-taoiseach said that.

    It is a bit different because they can be effective enough to get their policies adopted without going for election.

    I reckon a lot of people know our theory of goverment but do not understand our system of government and how it works.


  • #100
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,140 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    smccarrick wrote: »
    I'm against this proposal- on a matter of principle. I do not believe that there should be quotas for any special interest groups, fullstop.

    If there is a perceived lack of women running for election- perhaps a better course of action would be to look at countries where there are far higher participation rates among women- such as the Scandinavian countries for examples. What is the driving factor that encourages a much higher participation rate among women there- both in politics but also in the workforce in general- its the provision of universal state sponsored childcare facilities. It would make far more sense to convert a chunk (or even all) of the current children's benefit into the direct provision of childcare along with a guarantee of a decent meal every day- than to simply hand over EUR140 a month for people to spend as they wish.

    In any event- the big issue in this country for women (and men with children) is that even where childcare facilities do exist- they are prohibitively expensive, and an active incentive to have one parent volunteer to opt out of the workforce to take care of children (increasingly this is men- given employment opportunities for women are paradoxically twice as good as for men for the first time ever (according to the ESRI).

    Another argument against all of this- is EU legislation. Insurance companies can no longer positively discriminate in favour of women drivers, nor pension providors in favour of men (who live on average almost 4 years less than women). How will a distortion such as this sit in gender neutral EU discrimination law?

    We need to look at the root causes behind fewer women participating in politics (and other professions) and tackle those.
    Firstly the Scandinavian countries all have quotas - voluntarily decided by the parties but they have them nonetheless. Do you have any evidence that childcare is the main driving factor behind women entering politics in Scandinavian countries?

    I would agree that childcare is a major issue in this country especially when 99% of those who care in the home are women but isn't it a tad ironic that it's men who have ignored the issues?

    With regard to whether quotas would be against EU laws I doubt it given that most EU countries have some form of quota

    The root causes?

    Well some of the root causes that Ivana Bacik has suggested are; Cash, Culture, Childcare, Connections and Candidate Selection Procedures.

    Cash; women earn less and so would find it difficult to fund a campaign
    Culture; the parties are dominated in membership by men - it's not general a welcoming atmosphere for women
    Childcare; the political lifestyle would b e particularly difficult for any young mother but there does need to be a reforming as well so that it isn't always assumed that childcare is for women
    Connections; Men build up networks through various different ways e.g. in sport clubs
    Candidate Selection Procedures; again these tend to be designed in ways that they are dominated by men and designed to suit men

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #101
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    CDfm wrote: »
    I posted earlier that John Bruton alleges that the real power is exercised by the civil servants "who use the Dail and Seanad to validate their rule"

    An ex-taoiseach said that.

    It is a bit different because they can be effective enough to get their policies adopted without going for election.

    I reckon a lot of people know our theory of goverment but do not understand our system of government and how it works.

    I know perfectly well how it works. But the civil service is not the topic of debate here.

    These issues here are pretty much what I have been talking about in this thread:
    Cash, Culture, Childcare, Connections and Candidate Selection Procedures.


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