30% of political candidates must be female....

partyatmygaff

MadsL wrote: »

Until we get some transparency, accountability and integrity in political life in this country, then yes, maybe.

How is punishing children and grandchildren for the faults of their parents going to achieve any of this?

What I was actually proposing was penalising political parties. Democratically, I guess you have to let the 'heirs to the estate' run. But maybe as independants without party funds.

Again, that is punishing innocent people for the flaws and crimes of their parents. Why should anyone be prevented from joining a political party or running for election just because their parent/grandparent/uncle/aunt was once a TD or party member?

Nepotism is rife in Irish political life (Did Barry Cowen's election not leave a nasy taste in your mouth?) something has to be done to stamp it out.

There were 21 candidates in Barry Cowen's constituency. It's not as if the people of Laois and Offaly were obliged to vote him in.

SugarHigh

stupidusername wrote: »

Maybe with this enforced it will encourage more women in, and yes this could be a good thing, but I still think it's a ridiculous way to go about it. What's next, are they going to stop women getting into other areas of work until 'enough' women have gone into politics?

Exactly. If women are deciding not to get into politics I don't see why we should try and herd them into it. This really annoys me because women were given equality and have the choice of whatever career they want. Certain people seem to have decided they are making the wrong choices so we should just herd them into the "right" ones.

SugarHigh

MadsL wrote: »

Until we get some transparency, accountability and integrity in political life in this country, then yes, maybe.

What I was actually proposing was penalising political parties. Democratically, I guess you have to let the 'heirs to the estate' run. But maybe as independants without party funds.

Nepotism is rife in Irish political life (Did Barry Cowen's election not leave a nasy taste in your mouth?) something has to be done to stamp it out.

People voted for Barry Cowen so why would it leave a bad taste in my mouth. The best way to stamp it out is to not vote for them but as long as people do they deserve to be there just as much as anyone else. Most people who get involved in politics are related to politicians I don't see why parties should be blamed or penalised for the indifference to politics most people have. I also don't see why they should be penalised for the lack of interest from women. As long as they aren't preventing women they aren't doing anything wrong and don't deserve to be punished.

As has already been pointed out parties already have higher percentages than independents so they obviously aren't to blame. In essence they are going to be penalised for not being sexist and not giving women an advantage because thats what equality seems to mean these days. If you treat women equally you are sexist and the only way not to be sexist is to give them an advantage which is what feminismis clearly striving for.

Just look at how Vincent Browne was called sexist for treating Joan Burton the same as every other guest. The same happened when she didn't get ministerial position she wanted it must have been sexism. Too many women use claims of sexism as a ploy to gain advantage

During the election, RTÉ interviewed Richard Boyd Barrett after he defeated Mary Hanafin and Ivana Bacik to win the final seat in the constituency. The first question they asked was whether he felt guilty about winning a seat that would otherwise have gone to a woman.

Mary Coughlans camp also tried to use the sexism card to gain advantage.

However the other main talking point is the national media blackout ordered by Mary Coughlan’s camp.

A number of national newspapers have been refused access to her campaign, with Ms Coughlan privately citing the ‘horrid’ coverage she received in her time as Tanaiste.

A close friend told us: “Mary has been picked on because she’s a woman and because she’s from Donegal. Why should she offer interviews now to a hostile press which has been nothing short of horrid?”

Every Fianna Fáil politician received bad coverage and rightly so but her camp tried to claim it as sexism based on nothing and decided this justified them to less media scrutiny.

MadsL

There were 21 candidates in Barry Cowen's constituency. It's not as if the people of Laois and Offaly were obliged to vote him in.

...and there were only three FF ones

While attending a meeting of Offaly County Council in January 1984 Cowen was taken ill. He was taken to St. Vincent's Hospital in Dublin and died several days later on 24 January 1984. He was survived by his wife, Mary, and three sons. The consequent by-election for his seat in the 24th Dáil was won by his second son, Brian Cowen, who went on to serve as Taoiseach from 2008 to 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Cowen

Mildred Fox

She was first elected to the 27th Dáil at the Wicklow by-election in June 1995 following the death of her father, sitting independent TD Johnny Fox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mildred_Fox

And in the 31st Dial ...
Charles Flanagan (FG)
Son of Oliver J Flanagan

Ciaran Lynch (L)
Ciaran is a brother-in-law of Kathleen Lynch also elected to 31st Dáil

Richard Bruton (FG)
Brother of John Bruton

Brian Lenihan (FF)
Say no more - at least Mammy O'Rourke is gone.

Michael Creed (FG)
Creed stepped down from the Dáil at the 1989 general election, when his son Michael then held the seat for Fine Gael.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (FG)
third generation of the Corcoran family :rolleyes:

Lucinda Creighton (FG)
Married to Fine Gael Senator Paul Bradford.

Tony McLoughlin (FG)
His uncle Joe was a TD. His father, Pat, was a councillor.

Joe Carey (FG)
Son of a Pat Carey.

Joe McHugh (FG)
Joe is married to Olwyn, who was also a TD.

Kieran O’Donnell (FG)
Nephew of former TD Tom O’Donnell

Michael Healy Rae
Say no more.

Niall Collins (FF)
Hits a full house - Niall is the grandson of James, nephew of Gerry, and nephew of Michael J., all of whom were TDs in their time.

Eamon Ó Cuív (FF)

Alan Farell (FG)
Didn't inherit but since his election to the Dáil, Farrell has been the subject of controversy as he hired his wife Emma Doyle as his parliamentary assistant in the Dail just two weeks after she was rejected by Farrell's Dublin North Fine Gael Party branch as his replacement on Fingal County Council. :rolleyes:



This list is also fairly long
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Families_in_the_Oireachtas




Seriously, no seriously can you not see a problem here?

SugarHigh

Madsl what you have posted doesn't show there is a problem because people still had to vote for them. It's already been pointed out that people who are related to politicians are more likely to become politicians due to an increased interest. The same thing happens with medicine, people who don't know a Dr. are less likely to go into medicine.

partyatmygaff

MadsL wrote: »

...and there were only three FF ones




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Cowen

Mildred Fox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mildred_Fox

And in the 31st Dial ...
Charles Flanagan (FG)
Son of Oliver J Flanagan

Ciaran Lynch (L)
Ciaran is a brother-in-law of Kathleen Lynch also elected to 31st Dáil

Richard Bruton (FG)
Brother of John Bruton

Brian Lenihan (FF)
Say no more - at least Mammy O'Rourke is gone.

Michael Creed (FG)
Creed stepped down from the Dáil at the 1989 general election, when his son Michael then held the seat for Fine Gael.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (FG)
third generation of the Corcoran family :rolleyes:

Lucinda Creighton (FG)
Married to Fine Gael Senator Paul Bradford.

Tony McLoughlin (FG)
His uncle Joe was a TD. His father, Pat, was a councillor.

Joe Carey (FG)
Son of a Pat Carey.

Joe McHugh (FG)
Joe is married to Olwyn, who was also a TD.

Kieran O’Donnell (FG)
Nephew of former TD Tom O’Donnell

Michael Healy Rae
Say no more.

Niall Collins (FF)
Hits a full house - Niall is the grandson of James, nephew of Gerry, and nephew of Michael J., all of whom were TDs in their time.

Eamon Ó Cuív (FF)

Alan Farell (FG)
Didn't inherit but since his election to the Dáil, Farrell has been the subject of controversy as he hired his wife Emma Doyle as his parliamentary assistant in the Dail just two weeks after she was rejected by Farrell's Dublin North Fine Gael Party branch as his replacement on Fingal County Council. :rolleyes:



This list is also fairly long
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Families_in_the_Oireachtas




Seriously, no seriously can you not see a problem here?

Yeah I seriously (In bold too) do not see a problem. They were voted in, the same way their parents were voted in.

If you want to talk about nepotism in politics talk about monarchies, not about legitimately elected sons and daughters of former T.Ds..

There's no nefarious conspiracy, it's just a simple fact of life that children often imitate their parents. Trying to discriminate against people because of their family in some vague war against nepotism isn't the way forward.

exe.pat

First off, if a person wants a career in politics they should have to work as hard as everyone else. These quotas make women a special class, like a ruling class that have rights to positions regardless of their ability.

The way these things have worked in other countries is that the women that are placed in these positions, are radical genderists.

I would not be so opposed to it if a diverse section of the female population got these positions and the country wasn't in such a bad position economically.

iptba

I see the "inheritance" statistic as suggesting that we do not attract as wide a range of capable people as is possible into the system.

I've known plenty of intelligent people and only a small fraction would ever consider running for a party.

I think part of it is party politics (which isn't being done away with by quotas for gender or anything else): standing for a party wouldn't appeal to me, what with constantly having to agree with members of your own party because they're members of your party, and disagree with members of other parties because they're not members of your party, and indeed having to vote that way because of the "whip" system. I presume it's the same many other people also.

MadsL

children often imitate their parents

Nail. Head.

Brown envelopes
Expenses
Planning Corruption
Overinflated sense of entitlement and worth...

need I go on.

The first step to admitting you have a problem. Ireland has a serious problem with addiction to political 'succession', sometimes the 'heirs' are competant - often they are complete clowns.

Monarchies are largely symbolic and have very little power. There is the weath issue, but lets not dwell. Politicians wield real and significant power. Parish pump politics together with 'ah, sure I knew yer father' has not served this country well.

I'm not fully sure how you fix it, but its a problem alright.

Let's draw a quick comparison; last 5 british PMs and last five Taoisigh

Gordon Brown has two brothers, John Brown and Andrew Brown. Andrew has been Head of Media Relations in the UK for the French-owned utility company EDF Energy since 2004.[131] Gordon Brown is also the brother-in-law of environmental journalist Clare Rewcastle Brown.

Tony Blair
His brother is a judge.

John Major
Father had a garden ornaments business, His brother Terry Major-Ball was a journalist/writer, his son runs his own business, his daughter is a veterinary nurse.

Margaret Thatcher (I still hate her btw)
Famously daughter of a shopkeeper, two famously useless offspring, neither in politics.

Jim Callahan
I can't find anything notable about his son and two daughters.

compared to...

Brian Cowen
More Cowens going forward...
Bernard Cowen (1932–1984): FF TD Laois–Offaly 1969–1984
his son Brian Cowen (born 1960): FF TD Laois–Offaly 1984–2011
his son Barry Cowen: FF TD Laois–Offaly 2011–


Bertie Ahern
De bruuver...
Bertie Ahern (born 1951): FF TD Dublin Central 1977–2011
his brother Noel Ahern (born 1944): FF TD Dublin North West 1992–2011


John Bruton
John Bruton (born 1947): FG TD Meath 1969–2004
his brother Richard Bruton (born 1953): FG Senator 1981–1982, TD Dublin North Central 1982–

Albert Reynolds
Not a 100% but I think that he is related to this branch of the family (anyone know for sure?)Patrick Reynolds (1887–1932): CnaG TD Leitrim–Sligo 1927–1932
his wife Mary Reynolds (1889–1974): FG TD Leitrim–Sligo 1932–1961
Their son Patrick J. Reynolds (1920–2003): FG TD Roscommon 1961–1969, Roscommon–Leitrim 1973–1977, Senator 1969–1973, 1977–1987
Patrick J.'s son Gerry Reynolds (born 1961): FG TD Sligo–Leitrim 1989–1992 and 1997–2002, Senator 1987–1989 and 1993–1997

Charlie Haughey
Seán Lemass (1899–1971): FF TD Dublin 1924–1969
his son Noel Lemass, Jnr (1929–1976): FF TD Dublin South West 1956–1976
Noel's wife Eileen Lemass (born 1932): FF TD Dublin South West 1977–1987, MEP Dublin 1984–1989
his son-in-law Charles Haughey (1925–2006): FF TD Dublin North East/Dublin Artane/Dublin North Central 1957–1992
his son Seán Haughey (born 1961): FF Senator 1987–1992, FF TD Dublin North Central 1992–2011

:rolleyes:

iptba

This is RTE's coverage of it:

Political gender quota legislation planned

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0528/gender.html

Call for Dáil gender quotas

The Government has confirmed that it is to introduce legislation that will force political parties to ensure that women make up a minimum of 30% of their candidates at the next general election.

The Government has confirmed that it is to introduce legislation before the summer that will force political parties to ensure that women make up a minimum of 30% of their candidates at the next general election.

Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan said parties that do not adopt the gender quota will have their State funding cut by 50%.

He said the parties have four years to plan for the change.

The National Women's Council of Ireland has welcomed the announcement.

Orla O'Connor, head of policy with the NWCI, described the announcement as a good start but said they would like to see a 50/50 split between male and female candidates.

However, Independent TD for Dublin Central Maureen O'Sullivan described the plan as tokenistic saying women are well capable of getting nominated without additional help.

So a representative of a women's group is asked their opinion along with a female politician. About an issue where some men will lose out because of their gender.

This is where I'd like to see some men's groups who would mention the gender discrimination aspect of it.

MadsL

some men will lose out

How do you figure that?

partyatmygaff

MadsL wrote: »

Nail. Head.

Brown envelopes
Expenses
Planning Corruption
Overinflated sense of entitlement and worth...

Right yeah, we've had a few corrupt politicians over the past few years. What, pray tell, will forbidding descendants of TDs to run for election do to solve this problem?

The first step to admitting you have a problem. Ireland has a serious problem with addiction to political 'succession', sometimes the 'heirs' are competant - often they are complete clowns.

Call it whatever you like. They were legitimately voted in the same way their predecessors were.

Monarchies are largely symbolic and have very little power.

*cough* House of Lords

Parish pump politics together with 'ah, sure I knew yer father' has not served this country well.

It sure hasn't. I still fail to see how barring descendants of TDs from running for election will eradicate this problem however.

Gordon Brown has two brothers, John Brown and Andrew Brown. Andrew has been Head of Media Relations in the UK for the French-owned utility company EDF Energy since 2004.[131] Gordon Brown is also the brother-in-law of environmental journalist Clare Rewcastle Brown.

Tony Blair
His brother is a judge.

John Major
Father had a garden ornaments business, His brother Terry Major-Ball was a journalist/writer, his son runs his own business, his daughter is a veterinary nurse.

Margaret Thatcher (I still hate her btw)
Famously daughter of a shopkeeper, two famously useless offspring, neither in politics.

Jim Callahan
I can't find anything notable about his son and two daughters.

compared to...

Brian Cowen
More Cowens going forward...
Bernard Cowen (1932–1984): FF TD Laois–Offaly 1969–1984
his son Brian Cowen (born 1960): FF TD Laois–Offaly 1984–2011
his son Barry Cowen: FF TD Laois–Offaly 2011–


Bertie Ahern
De bruuver...
Bertie Ahern (born 1951): FF TD Dublin Central 1977–2011
his brother Noel Ahern (born 1944): FF TD Dublin North West 1992–2011


John Bruton
John Bruton (born 1947): FG TD Meath 1969–2004
his brother Richard Bruton (born 1953): FG Senator 1981–1982, TD Dublin North Central 1982–

Albert Reynolds
Not a 100% but I think that he is related to this branch of the family (anyone know for sure?)Patrick Reynolds (1887–1932): CnaG TD Leitrim–Sligo 1927–1932
his wife Mary Reynolds (1889–1974): FG TD Leitrim–Sligo 1932–1961
Their son Patrick J. Reynolds (1920–2003): FG TD Roscommon 1961–1969, Roscommon–Leitrim 1973–1977, Senator 1969–1973, 1977–1987
Patrick J.'s son Gerry Reynolds (born 1961): FG TD Sligo–Leitrim 1989–1992 and 1997–2002, Senator 1987–1989 and 1993–1997

Charlie Haughey
Seán Lemass (1899–1971): FF TD Dublin 1924–1969
his son Noel Lemass, Jnr (1929–1976): FF TD Dublin South West 1956–1976
Noel's wife Eileen Lemass (born 1932): FF TD Dublin South West 1977–1987, MEP Dublin 1984–1989
his son-in-law Charles Haughey (1925–2006): FF TD Dublin North East/Dublin Artane/Dublin North Central 1957–1992
his son Seán Haughey (born 1961): FF Senator 1987–1992, FF TD Dublin North Central 1992–2011

:rolleyes:

I still fail to see how any of this can be classed as nepotism.

donfers

a hugely insulting decision to all women, i expect the genuine feminists to be up in arms about this, moronic decision

donfers

Solair wrote: »

Well, I'm a bloke and I agree with this move. Women are at no disadvantage when they are on the ticket and I do not think that the electorate are in any way sexist, but there is something seriously wrong with the parties' candidate selection process which seems to produce a boring panel of middle aged men.

I would hope that things might shake up generally and more people from different background get on the ticket. We see exactly what a bunch of middle aged, middle class, similarly experienced men brought us : group think, corruption and lack of new ideas.

Anything that brings new blood into the system is positive, in my opinion.

you don't reform something by corrupting it even more

Dravokivich

MadsL wrote: »

How do you figure that?

Quota's will have to be met right? Someone could consider themselves a resource in order to hold a quota.

Its no real value if you've just got someone making the numbers.

iptba

MadsL wrote: »

some men will lose out

How do you figure that?

Because faced with a choice of a man or a woman, particularly new candidates (they will still have plenty of long-term male candidates who are good "bets" for seats), many local/national parties are going to be inclined to choose a woman to try to ensure they get the quota.

MadsL

forbidding descendants of TDs to run for election

I wasn't quite proposing that - if you remember I was proposing penalties on parties for running the 'heirs'.

*cough* House of Lords

Do keep up with current affairs..

In 1997 The Labour Government introduced legislation to expel all hereditary peers from the Upper House as a first step in Lords reform. As a part of a compromise, however, it agreed to permit 92 hereditary peers to remain until the reforms were complete. Thus all but 92 hereditary peers were expelled under the House of Lords Act 1999 (see below for its provisions), making the House of Lords predominantly an appointed house.

or 92/789 = 12% of members

*cough* Seanad

11 out of 60 nominated by the Taoiseach = 18% of members

I said "Parish pump politics together with 'ah, sure I knew yer father' has not served this country well."

You said

It sure hasn't.

So how do we fix it?

I still fail to see how any of this can be classed as nepotism.

The contrast between senior politicians here and the UK doesn't strike you at all? How do you explain it - coincidence?

If getting women into politics is a problem that needs a quota system, surely the issue is with the local political parties selection committees. Maybe if we remove the temptation to put up 'the easy option' (outgoing TD's offspring or brother-in-law or whatever) maybe we would get more opportunities for bright candidates.

Maybe we should copy these over to politics - any mod able to assist?

iptba

A discussion about nepotism etc. would be better in politics. But a discussion on gender quotas should stay here, IMO.

MadsL

iptba wrote: »

A discussion about nepotism etc. would be better in politics. But a discussion on gender quotas should stay here, IMO.

That's what I meant. Could any mod split this thread and move to politics?

challengemaster

How long until 30% have to be whatever the PC name for black people is these days, etc etc.

As Agent Smith says, who gives a fcuk so long as they're good.

SugarHigh

MadsL wrote: »

That's what I meant. Could any mod split this thread and move to politics?

www.boards.ie/search

The politics forum have already had threads on nepotism especially Irish nepotism.

SugarHigh

MadsL wrote: »

How do you figure that?

Are you joking?


Quotas mean women are competing with an advantage that has nothing to do with their merit and all to do with being the right gender which is clearly sexism. So if there is man with greater merit but the quota hasn't been met he will passed up for someone who just happens to be female.

partyatmygaff

Here's a good quota.

100% of our political candidates must be honest, dedicated, intelligent and hard working.

Affirmative action to artificially create equality is a waste of time.

Dravokivich

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Here's a good quota.

100% of our political candidates must be honest, dedicated, intelligent and hard working.

Affirmative action to artificially create equality is a waste of time.

I'm more of the opinion that equality doesn't mean 50/50 gender balance, but that everyone has the chance regardless of gender.

Annasopra

jobyrne30 wrote: »

What process are you referring to exactly ? As far as I can see there has been lip service and no real effort to find out why women are not involved in politics to the extent males are. If you find the route cause then you can fix the issue with a real solutions.

I was thinking more from the public perspective ... the public want the best person for the job not the best female.

There has actually been extensive research done by the oireachtas committee on justice, defense, equality and women's rights on this area. Their report in 2009 came out with about 20 recommendations of which one was this area

Annasopra

exe.pat wrote: »

First off, if a person wants a career in politics they should have to work as hard as everyone else. These quotas make women a special class, like a ruling class that have rights to positions regardless of their ability.

The way these things have worked in other countries is that the women that are placed in these positions, are radical genderists.

I would not be so opposed to it if a diverse section of the female population got these positions and the country wasn't in such a bad position economically.

What countries has that happened in?

iptba

Johnnymcg wrote: »

There has actually been extensive research done by the oireachtas committee on justice, defense, equality and women's rights on this area. Their report in 2009 came out with about 20 recommendations of which one was this area

A report largely written by Ivana Bacik as I recall.

parker kent

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm more of the opinion that equality doesn't mean 50/50 gender balance, but that everyone has the chance regardless of gender.

I agree completely with that but I can see why people suggest there should be something done to get more women into politics. Like a few posters said earlier, Irish politics needs fresh blood in general and I would include a greater contribution from women as being part of that change.

It is an oddity that Ireland has such poor levels of participation in politics from women. Particularly when you view how well educated Irish women are. I mean it is not as if they are being plucked from an oven for the first time in their lives. They are highly educated, intelligent people. So any move that increases the amount of highly educated, intelligent people seems like a positive move to me.

I agree it should logically be the best people regardless of their gender, but maybe we need to go through a few years of quotas to get to the stage where we genuinely are represented by the best people possible. I don't think people could seriously say that there is not a culture that promotes a similar type of person in Irish political parties and that does not favour women. Now it doesn't favour a lot of people as there are lots of people on the outside looking in, so we need to get all of those people involved as well.

I'm rambling a little, but I don't think this is necessarily as bad as some are saying in this thread. As long as it is a short term scheme, it should be fine.

MadsL

How long until 30% have to be whatever the PC name for black people is these days, etc etc.

Haven't dragged up a Gathering card for a while..here we go.

iptba

parker kent wrote: »

As long as it is a short term scheme, it should be fine.

Has anyone seen any evidence that the bill will mention a time limit? No mention of it in the coverage in the IT today or on RTE that I recall.