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Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

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    #482
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    By getting rid of our townlands off our addresses it will remove one of the things that makes Ireland different to nearly every other country.
    uniqueness of place
    Nonsense. I spent my first summer away from home in the wonderfully named Stow-cum-Quy near Cambridge, a town with all of the singularity one could imagine, and positively brimming with *postcodes*! The UK has some of the most fascinating placenames in the English speaking world, with postcodes having no detrimental effect on these names. Nobody refers to their town as 4NS.

    To be honest, Im not convinced that Ireland simply must have postcodes, or that the need is all that pressing. However, yours is the worst argument I can see in opposing them.


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    #483
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Has anyone taken time to look at when this Thread started - "Government Introduces Postcodes in Ireland" - 14-1-2008 - that's well over 3 years ago!!!

    This thread was started on the date when Noel Dempsey had promised PostCodes would be in place - now 3 years late! He promised this in 2005 - 6 years ago no less and Eamon Ryan was unable to deliver!

    So folks times have moved on - we do not have traditional postcodes because what was proposed was out of date and no one has really been convinced of their value as proposed, including the current FG/Lab Government who contributed largely to the Oireachtas Report of 1st April 2010 which criticised the then 5 year old FF/GP plan and recommended an alternative GPS based solution. This same recommendation has been made in the Dail over the last few weeks by members of the new Government.

    Loc8 Codes have evolved from PON Codes - around now for several years - a solution which is orientated towards modern GPS and positioning technologies as the Oireachtas report suggested.

    Loc8 Codes are not traditional postcodes - they are a modern alternative with significant additional capabilities, for the Post Postcode Era - they are already in place and already in use including by several Government agencies!

    Loc8 Code Ltd is a new small Irish company (evolved out of GPS Ireland)based in Crosshaven in Cork and together they have delivered Loc8 Codes over a period of 6 years. Loc8 is a privately owned company. It is currently employing 6 people with plans for 20 as the roll out evolves during 2011/12.

    Therefore the discussion over whether we need postcodes or not is over - we do not need postcodes for mail and we do not need traditional old style postcodes like they have in Northern Ireland (would not work here either anyhow) We need a solution which appeals to a much wider set of industries - Logistics, Couriers, Fastfood, Motoring, Tourist, Retail/Home Delivery, Utilities, Services, Emergency Services etc etc - and this is what Loc8 Codes do ! And if you don't want one - then that's fine - its entirely up to you - it will just cost more for someone other than An Post to deliver services to your home/Business/Event/Tourist attraction!


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    #484
    byrnefm
    Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭byrnefm


    I'm just catching up on this thread after a few months...

    So if I'm reading this right, the postcode project is on hold yet again since the last several weeks? Is there any word on when it might start again? I remember hearing at one time that end of 2011 was a target date for their introduction. I'm assuming that's up in the air now...

    I'm also in favour of the Loc8 codes, though wish they were slightly easier to remember! However, it is a system that is already developed, working and usable on SatNavs - showing that it is a viable system and would be soooo handy for courier deliveries and anything else that requires address pinpointing... And best of all, in our cash-strapped economy... free!


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    #485
    jaffa20
    Registered Users Posts: 4,509 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    This thread was started on 14/01/08 @ 17:28. It just shows how things move so slooooowly in ireland!


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    #486
    RandolphEsq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,296 ✭✭✭RandolphEsq


    Noel who?


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    #487
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    byrnefm wrote: »
    So if I'm reading this right, the postcode project is on hold yet again since the last several weeks? Is there any word on when it might start again?

    Both new Gov Party manifestos suggest changing what the last Government had proposed since 2005:

    FG Election Manifesto Page 41 - Postcodes: " Fine Gael will introduce a new post code system that works on the principle of codes unique to the location of buildings as opposed to the Government’s current plan for an area code system"

    Labour Election Manifesto Page 32 - Sustaining a Universal Postal Service: " Labour will implement the recommendations of the all-party
    agreed Oireachtas Committee Postcodes Report " (see page 17)


    so we could be a while waiting (2013/14???) for a National system. Just as well Loc8 Codes are already in place.


  • Options
    #488
    GoCoder
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭GoCoder


    garydubh wrote: »

    Labour Election Manifesto Page 32 - Sustaining a Universal Postal Service: Labour will implement the recommendations of the all-party
    agreed Oireachtas Committee Postcodes Report [/URL]" /I]

    As has been pointed out before, the link you provide to the Oireachtas Committee Postcodes Report is a misleading one that leads directly to a website carrying an earlier, out of date version of the report. The official revised report and its recommendations can be found here from the official Oireachtas website. This is the report to which the Labour manifesto refers.


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    #489
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,641 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Overheal wrote: »
    But heres confidence: 29483-5398. Do your worst. The fact is you'll find nothing.
    Damn you mapquest!

    http://www.mapquest.com/maps?address=109%20Branch%20Creek%20Trl&city=Summerville&state=SC&zipcode=29483-5398

    FWIW though I still don't understand the privacy concerns about postcodes. you could argue the same thing about actual addresses.


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    #490
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Overheal wrote: »
    Damn you mapquest!

    http://www.mapquest.com/maps?address=109%20Branch%20Creek%20Trl&city=Summerville&state=SC&zipcode=29483-5398

    FWIW though I still don't understand the privacy concerns about postcodes. you could argue the same thing about actual addresses.

    These kinds of people don't use logic.

    If someone doesn't want anyone to find you then go into a mountain and dig a hole. We promise we won't give out the postcode to your hole if you let us utilise modern technology to enhance our lifestyles!!

    Anyone know if Osama Bin Ladin's house had a postcode? Maybe that's how they got him :pac:


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    #491
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Budget for Postcodes being used to fund other Government initiatives.

    Meanwhile, Loc8 Codes continue to grow in popularity


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    #492
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    It shouldn't cost more than 2 million anyway. Realsitically they could just approve the Loc8 codes for national use and spend the 2 million on information for citizens.


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    #493
    byrnefm
    Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭byrnefm


    garydubh wrote: »
    Budget for Postcodes being used to fund other Government initiatives.

    Meanwhile, Loc8 Codes continue to grow in popularity

    Sigh... I take it that this means the postcodes project is effectively shelved - again? :( And if/when it comes back as an idea again, I'm sure that another multi-million euro analysis will be required...

    (Way to go Dublin Council for using Loc8 codes on their website! Perhaps these may end up becoming 'de facto' postcodes?)


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    #494
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Use of Garmins and Loc8 Codes would make sure this (from today's Examiner) never happens again...

    For years now we have been hearing how over-worked emergency crews have difficulty finding places - this is now even a greater problem because emergency crews have to work in unfamiliar areas due to reorganisation and cutbacks.

    A postcode designed by the Department of Communications in 2006 only for sorting mail and only defining the centre of groups of up to 50 properties will not solve this problem;- a solution which is now already 3.5 years late on delivery as a result of confusion, administrative errors, indecision and because an Oireachtas report criticised the plan as being out of date and incapable of being used on modern popular technologies such as Satnavs and GPS enabled phones.

    Loc8 Codes are based on these technologies and solve the problem - just a matter of the HSE (on a National basis) starting to use them like many other Government agencies and commercial organisations are already doing.


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    #495
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Support for Loc8 Codes increasing all round:

    Political

    Social


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    #496
    iMax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭iMax


    Loc8 would be great as it's in existence already but it has to be made open platform so it doesn't give a severe commercial advantage to Garmin


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    #497
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Garmin have a large share in it though and have put a lot of money into making it a known brand name.

    I don't think Loc8 would be getting the attention it is now if it wasn't for Garmin's advertising.

    I had it on my last satnav before it was stolen and worked fantastic. Far enough the place I was going didn't have its Loc8 code available but I was able to look it up online and send it to a bunch of people to help them out without sending some mad long link from google maps and was able to select the carpark entrance on the website and when I was ready to go, I just entered my code and I was good to go.

    My only problem with it is because it will cost to license it, I will never be able to use it on my phone that I'm using as my satnav at the moment because I'm using Navit and Open Street Maps but it is a proprietary technology and it is pretty much the cost of having a privately owned post code system (since our government has failed spectacularly to introduce one).

    Of course the government could license it to make it freely available I'm sure. Probably only take them 10 years to get around to it :rolleyes:


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    #498
    iMax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭iMax


    They need to make that app free though - €3.99 on the app store, not going to sell too many.

    If they make it free & reward people (points system) to update a central server, then it'll probably work.

    The only problem I see with it is that if I create a Loc8 code at one end of (for example) the GPO & then create another at the other end of it, they'll be two different codes for the same place & that's not how postcodes work.


  • Options
    #499
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    iMax wrote: »
    Loc8 would be great as it's in existence already but it has to be made open platform so it doesn't give a severe commercial advantage to Garmin

    Loc8 Code is open Platform - open to anyone who wants to use it.


  • Options
    #500
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    thebman wrote: »
    Garmin have a large share in it though and have put a lot of money into making it a known brand name.

    I don't think Loc8 would be getting the attention it is now if it wasn't for Garmin's advertising.

    I had it on my last satnav before it was stolen and worked fantastic. Far enough the place I was going didn't have its Loc8 code available but I was able to look it up online and send it to a bunch of people to help them out without sending some mad long link from google maps and was able to select the carpark entrance on the website and when I was ready to go, I just entered my code and I was good to go.

    My only problem with it is because it will cost to license it, I will never be able to use it on my phone that I'm using as my satnav at the moment because I'm using Navit and Open Street Maps but it is a proprietary technology and it is pretty much the cost of having a privately owned post code system (since our government has failed spectacularly to introduce one).

    Of course the government could license it to make it freely available I'm sure. Probably only take them 10 years to get around to it :rolleyes:

    No Problem using it on any phone - Loc8 Code (an Irish Company) licenses Loc8 Codes to developers - any application developer/satnav maker can License Loc8 Codes. Garmin pay Loc8 Code Ltd in order to use it on their devices and other manufacturers are planning to do the same.


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    #501
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    iMax wrote: »
    They need to make that app free though - €3.99 on the app store, not going to sell too many.

    If they make it free & reward people (points system) to update a central server, then it'll probably work.

    The only problem I see with it is that if I create a Loc8 code at one end of (for example) the GPO & then create another at the other end of it, they'll be two different codes for the same place & that's not how postcodes work.

    Point8 is the product of a private developer - Loc8 licenses the code to any developer - point8 has been downloaded several thousand times - used by couriers, paramedics, salesmen, delivery men, pizza deliveries and many more.

    Loc8 is not a postcode - a postcode is 1960's technology for sorting mail only. (no longer required for this purpose as well documented by An Post themselves) If you want to go in the southern side entrance of the GPO to meet An Post Management rather than the front entrance - then you can create a Loc8 Code for that. The GPO has several entrances giving access for different purposes - they can all have a Loc8 Code same as entrances to an industrial site - vastly superior to any traditional postcode - Loc8 is for the post postcode era which is GPS, GIS, Web Mapping, Smartphone and technology based!!!


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    #502
    iMax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭iMax


    I get the feeling Garydubh works for/owns loc8...


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    #503
    emanresu
    Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭emanresu


    iMax wrote: »
    I get the feeling Garydubh works for/owns loc8...

    That's not a secret, it was disclosed or obvious in many other posts. This thread has been around a long time and he is a regular contributor.


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    #504
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    emanresu wrote: »
    That's not a secret, it was disclosed or obvious in many other posts. This thread has been around a long time and he is a regular contributor.

    Gary Delaney of GPS Ireland & Loc8 Code - developer of PON Codes - now called Loc8 Codes. PON Codes - a beta test version was released in early 2008 after design since 2006. PON COdes underwent 2 years of testing on Garmin devices and were released as Loc8 Codes 1 Year ago.

    DCENR has been talking about Postcodes since 2005 -first met An Post Opposition and now new Government has questioned the need/capability as proposed in 2006 when a traditional 1960's UK type postcode was proposed.

    I personally invested with others and a delivered a workable system which covers all modern requirements (even mail sort if needed????) Loc8 is already being used by many industries and creating jobs in Crosshaven in Cork and largest SatNav manufacturer in the world has licensed its use for its devices.

    Its strange that when people use Google maps they don't ask when the Government is going to provide the alternative - Loc8 is the Google Maps of Navigation/Finding Places/deliveries/logistics/emergency services - no need for the Government to waste scarce money on a DCENR proposed solution which An Post has said they do not want and which could not be used to find places - it was designed pre Google Maps, useable satnavs and smartphones!


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    #505
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    garydubh wrote: »
    ...and smartphones!
    If, that is, you have an Apple smartphone. Android support isn't a nice-to-have anymore, it's a must, and it really needs to integrate with Google's navigation software.


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    #506
    iMax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭iMax


    Not getting at you Gary, I was genuinely surprised by your answers. I think the system is great, but as you pointed out it's not a postcode system. It's a gps system & what's needed is a postcode system. For post.

    If I want a GPS system I'll use a garmin, or a tom tom or whatever, I've driven in the UK (including NI) & the USA using GPS -> tap in the post/zip code & I've been brought direct to the spot. It's a system that works & it doesn't really need another layer. All we need is post codes, not individual gps co-ordinates. We're a tiny island, it's possible to find where you want to be (if you're not in a medical emergency) using the old-fashioned method, & map/asking directions.

    I'm sure the app is successful if that many people download it, however, it's only useful for those who want to build their own databases & therefore, for me to use it the way I want to, the place I want to go to has to be able to give me the Loc8 code. I'd love to try it out & be converted to it, but I'm not going to fork out €3.99 to find out I was right.

    (incidentally, the link on your blog is incorrect)


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    #507
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    iMax wrote: »
    Not getting at you Gary, I was genuinely surprised by your answers. I think the system is great, but as you pointed out it's not a postcode system. It's a gps system & what's needed is a postcode system. For post.

    If I want a GPS system I'll use a garmin, or a tom tom or whatever, I've driven in the UK (including NI) & the USA using GPS -> tap in the post/zip code & I've been brought direct to the spot. It's a system that works & it doesn't really need another layer. All we need is post codes, not individual gps co-ordinates. We're a tiny island, it's possible to find where you want to be (if you're not in a medical emergency) using the old-fashioned method, & map/asking directions.

    I'm sure the app is successful if that many people download it, however, it's only useful for those who want to build their own databases & therefore, for me to use it the way I want to, the place I want to go to has to be able to give me the Loc8 code. I'd love to try it out & be converted to it, but I'm not going to fork out €3.99 to find out I was right.

    (incidentally, the link on your blog is incorrect)
    Postcodes will be useless in the countryside in Ireland. It will mean that every post man/courier will have to have local knowledge to deliver mail/packages.

    What is it that postcodes have that Loc8 doesn't? All I can see is Loc8 codes adds extra advantages over regular postcodes.


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    #508
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    iMax wrote: »
    It's a gps system & what's needed is a postcode system. For post.
    Why? My post gets delivered. The postman knows where I live. The problem is, couriers don't, and emergency services don't, and visitors don't, and...
    If I want a GPS system I'll use a garmin, or a tom tom or whatever, I've driven in the UK (including NI) & the USA using GPS -> tap in the post/zip code & I've been brought direct to the spot.
    A UK postcode will bring you to a street. A US zip code will bring you to a town. A Danish post code will bring you to something equivalent to a county.

    In Denmark, however, every road (including rural lanes) within a postcode area has a unique name, and every property on each road is required to have a number. This is also largely true in the US. We don't have reliable road naming, and we don't number houses outside (and sometimes inside) towns.

    Pointing to systems that work in other countries is all very well, but we're not in those countries. It's also pretty tiresome having to rehash these arguments every time someone doesn't bother to read the thread.
    We're a tiny island, it's possible to find where you want to be (if you're not in a medical emergency) using the old-fashioned method, & map/asking directions.
    And, let's face it, who cares about medical emergencies? Once the post gets delivered reliably, which it already does, we're all good. Right?


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    #509
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    garydubh wrote: »
    No Problem using it on any phone - Loc8 Code (an Irish Company) licenses Loc8 Codes to developers - any application developer/satnav maker can License Loc8 Codes. Garmin pay Loc8 Code Ltd in order to use it on their devices and other manufacturers are planning to do the same.

    Yes the particular program I use is an Open Source program called Navit for Android which uses Open Street Maps for navigation so the developers will not be able to afford to license the loc8 codes for Ireland though.

    Maybe this is similar to other countries but I would have thought a state created post code system such as the UK's would be licensed for use by anyone so would become freely available.

    At the momen, Navit doesn't support any postcodes so it isn't an issue though.


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    #510
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    thebman wrote: »
    Yes the particular program I use is an Open Source program called Navit for Android which uses Open Street Maps for navigation so the developers will not be able to afford to license the loc8 codes for Ireland though.

    Maybe this is similar to other countries but I would have thought a state created post code system such as the UK's would be licensed for use by anyone so would become freely available.

    At the momen, Navit doesn't support any postcodes so it isn't an issue though.

    It is not free to use Royal Mail Postcode delivery points or US Zip Codes - they all must raise income to support their maintenance.

    It is a pity there is so much misinformation about relating to this subject.


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    #511
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    There is a free database of Royal Mail postcodes and this can be used commercially. This locates down to a fairly small area.

    http://data.gov.uk/dataset/os-code-point-open

    You can also pay for a database of delivery points. However, this is much more than a postcode database. It includes complete postal addresses for every premises in the UK.


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