Do Protestants believe in saints?

Dionysus · 28-04-2011 9:43pm #1

I've long wondered this. I'm aware that Britain has its patron saints of George, Andrew and David but is that more of a hangover from pre-Reformation times?

Do Protestant churches believe in saints and, if so, have any of them declared somebody to be a 'saint' since the Reformation?

Thanks.

delta_bravo · 28-04-2011 9:46pm

I think its that the Protestant churches don't believe in the Communion of Saints. I may be corrected by someone more knowledgeable though.

PDN · 28-04-2011 9:50pm

delta_bravo wrote: »

I think its that the Protestant churches don't believe in the Communion of Saints. I may be corrected by someone more knowledgeable though.

Just about every Protestant Church would subscribe to the Apostles Creed which includes a reference to the Communion of the Saints.

Of course their interpretation of this would be very different to that of Roman Catholicism. Most Protestant Churches would see the communion of the saionts as referring to all believers in Christ in various movements and denopminations throughout the ages. Most would not pray to the saints.

delta_bravo · 28-04-2011 9:54pm

PDN wrote: »

Just about every Protestant Church would subscribe to the Apostles Creed which includes a reference to the Communion of the Saints.

Of course their interpretation of this would be very different to that of Roman Catholicism. Most Protestant Churches would see the communion of the saionts as referring to all believers in Christ in various movements and denopminations throughout the ages. Most would not pray to the saints.

Sorry yeah the last bit was what I was primarily referring to. No praying to St. Anthony to find the lost wallet

Sofiztikated · 28-04-2011 10:05pm

Yes, and no.

Yes, there are various saints. But no, they don't pray to them.

I mean, why would pray to someone when you could go straight to the big man himself?

Donatello · 28-04-2011 10:46pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Yes, and no.

Yes, there are various saints. But no, they don't pray to them.

I mean, why would pray to someone when you could go straight to the big man himself?

At the risk of repeating something that has been said before, would you ask a friend to pray for an intention? We believe the saints in heaven are with God. Just as you might ask a friend on the earth, so too you can ask the saints in heaven to intercede for you.

Dionysus · 29-04-2011 1:11am

PDN wrote: »

Just about every Protestant Church would subscribe to the Apostles Creed which includes a reference to the Communion of the Saints.

Of course their interpretation of this would be very different to that of Roman Catholicism. Most Protestant Churches would see the communion of the saionts as referring to all believers in Christ in various movements and denopminations throughout the ages. Most would not pray to the saints.

OK, so all believers thoughout the centuries have been "saints"? What recognition do they give the historical saints, for instance pre-Reformation saints like Augustine?

Is there any cult of sainthood still in Protestant areas? For instance, all across Ireland saints are associated with different regions and you'll have a disproportionate number of people with the first name of their local saint in particular regions - e.g. Jarlath/Iarla in Galway, Brendan/Breandán in Kerry, Finian/Fionnán in Meath, Finbar/Fionnbharr in Cork, and so forth. Similarly, local wells and spas remain named after particular saints and there's usually a religious event there on the saint's feastday. Does that tradition continue across Britain, for instance?

Would Protestants be aware of the special virtues of particular saints - e.g. St Jude and hopeless cases? Aside from the apostle's creed, do saints play any role in their religious beliefs?

Soul Winner · 29-04-2011 2:37am

The word saint in the Greek is hagios and the same word is sometimes translated holy in the English. It is simply someone who has given themselves over to something else, or someone who has committed themselves totally to a deity. When a person gives their life to God they at that moment are saints. Paul wrote to saints in his Epistles for instance. Paul never venerated these saints. Saints venerate God. Paul actually states in Ephesians 4:11 that He (God) gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints to the work of the ministry." Which means that saints are to be perfected. Saintliness is always so do with commitment not performance. Yes, certain saints may perform better than other saints and be remembered and revered for those things but it is not New Testament doctrine that saints should venerate saints, because that would take the focus away from God and thereby render the saint not a saint in the Christian sense. Admire? Yes. Worship or pray to? Never.

antiskeptic · 29-04-2011 10:42am

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes, certain saints may perform better than other saints and be remembered and revered for those things but it is not New Testament doctrine that saints should venerate saints, because that would take the focus away from God and thereby render the saint not a saint in the Christian sense. Admire? Yes. Worship or pray to? Never.

For example:

I can admire Saint Soulwinner for his succint summary on the subject of saintliness.

But consult him on the whereabouts of my lost keys? Not a bit of it.

Donatello · 29-04-2011 12:42pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

For example:

I can admire Saint Soulwinner for his succint summary on the subject of saintliness.

But consult him on the whereabouts of my lost keys? Not a bit of it.

The idea is not to consult him about where the keys are, but to ask him to intercede for you to God so that you might find your keys.

optogirl · 29-04-2011 12:45pm

Donatello wrote: »

The idea is not to consult him about where the keys are, but to ask him to intercede for you to God so that you might find your keys.

cos god has nothing better to do than worry about where your keys are, make sure Celtic win cups and grant priviliged American actors oscars.

liamw · 29-04-2011 12:58pm

optogirl wrote: »

cos god has nothing better to do than worry about where your keys are, make sure Celtic win cups and grant priviliged American actors oscars.

He's omnipotent so he can do everything simulataneously.

Sofiztikated · 29-04-2011 1:32pm

Donatello wrote: »

At the risk of repeating something that has been said before, would you ask a friend to pray for an intention? We believe the saints in heaven are with God. Just as you might ask a friend on the earth, so too you can ask the saints in heaven to intercede for you.

My view on it would be:

You could ask a friend to do something for you. But if there was someone better I could ask, I would ask them.

Also, I don't be praying to any, or asking anyone to pray for me. Sofiztikated = Agnostic. Not a militant athiest though. I have my (lack of) belief and respect other peoples various beliefs.

Donatello · 29-04-2011 2:24pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

My view on it would be:

You could ask a friend to do something for you. But if there was someone better I could ask, I would ask them.

Also, I don't be praying to any, or asking anyone to pray for me. Sofiztikated = Agnostic. Not a militant athiest though. I have my (lack of) belief and respect other peoples various beliefs.

It's probably best to get as many people on the case as possible. God might be busy, but if He has a lot of saints pestering Him about keys, He might just intervene, even if it is just to quiet the saints.

antiskeptic · 29-04-2011 4:45pm

Donatello wrote: »

The idea is not to consult him about where the keys are, but to ask him to intercede for you to God so that you might find your keys.

How very OT (and OTT

)

Why would I (a saint) ask another saint to intercede with my father when I can ask my own father directly?

wolfsbane · 29-04-2011 8:16pm

Dionysus wrote: »

I've long wondered this. I'm aware that Britain has its patron saints of George, Andrew and David but is that more of a hangover from pre-Reformation times?

Do Protestant churches believe in saints and, if so, have any of them declared somebody to be a 'saint' since the Reformation?

Thanks.

All Christians are saints, in the Biblical use of the term 'saint'. We ask other living saints to pray for us, but we do not attempt to speak to dead saints. Departed saints are with Christ. But we have no grounds to think they can hear any of us, let alone thousands or millions speaking at once. Those attributes belong to God alone.

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James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

Donatello · 29-04-2011 11:04pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

All Christians are saints, in the Biblical use of the term 'saint'. We ask other living saints to pray for us, but we do not attempt to speak to dead saints. Departed saints are with Christ. But we have no grounds to think they can hear any of us, let alone thousands or millions speaking at once. Those attributes belong to God alone.

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James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

Saints are alive in Christ!

antiskeptic · 29-04-2011 11:53pm

Donatello wrote: »

Saints are alive in Christ!

Yes. But is there any reason to suppose they can hear us?

Wolfsbane wrote:

Departed saints are with Christ. But we have no grounds to think they can hear any of us, let alone thousands or millions speaking at once.

A quick check saw a Catholic apologetics site turn in the first instance to the highly symbolic Revelation (of all places) for firm foundation. Heaven help us indeed!

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Is there anything more biblically substantial to prop this particular doctrine against?

Donatello · 30-04-2011 12:16am

antiskeptic wrote: »

Yes. But is there any reason to suppose they can hear us?

Well, I can 'hear' you, and I'm not in heaven. I expect they at least have high-speed broadband in heaven. Perhaps they have something better?

tenchi-fan · 30-04-2011 5:26am

The church of England has a bonus saint who is not considered a saint by the Catholic church: Saint Charles Stuart

Dionysus · 30-04-2011 10:30am

tenchi-fan wrote: »

The church of England has a bonus saint who is not considered a saint by the Catholic church: Saint Charles Stuart

Very interesting! The article also says he's "the only saint to be officially canonised within the Anglican Communion". That's the sort of thing I was wondering about. The article also states "There are many societies dedicated to his devotion." which makes me wonder how that works if Protestants don't pray etc to saints. Any ideas, people?

Dionysus · 30-04-2011 10:43am

antiskeptic wrote: »

How very OT (and OTT )

Why would I (a saint) ask another saint to intercede with my father when I can ask my own father directly?

This has taken a hilarious twist but seeing as you mention the above, I used to ask my Mam to intercede with my Dad when he wouldn't be the most amenable to allowing us do something. And that often worked. Maybe, like my Mam, the saints have more influence with the man above? (if we're really going to stretch that analogy!)

getz · 30-04-2011 10:59am

wolfsbane wrote: »

All Christians are saints, in the Biblical use of the term 'saint'. We ask other living saints to pray for us, but we do not attempt to speak to dead saints. Departed saints are with Christ. But we have no grounds to think they can hear any of us, let alone thousands or millions speaking at once. Those attributes belong to God alone.

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James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

no one is in heaven except god/jesus and the angels john 3:13 no one has ascended into heaven,except he who decended from heaven,the son of man,

philologos · 30-04-2011 12:19pm

Protestants are not a homogenous block, this is why one could expect that there are varied opinions on this. I believe wolfsbane is right that all Christians are saints. Paul writes to the Christian communities much in this manner.

TravelJunkie · 03-05-2011 3:20pm

Dionysus wrote: »

This has taken a hilarious twist but seeing as you mention the above, I used to ask my Mam to intercede with my Dad when he wouldn't be the most amenable to allowing us do something. And that often worked. Maybe, like my Mam, the saints have more influence with the man above? (if we're really going to stretch that analogy!)

All these arguments whether you can or cannot pray to saints would be fine if God actually wanted you to pray to saints. But he doesn't. We have clear instructions. There is only one God, and one mediator, Jesus Christ.

Donatello · 03-05-2011 4:21pm

TravelJunkie wrote: »

All these arguments whether you can or cannot pray to saints would be fine if God actually wanted you to pray to saints. But he doesn't. We have clear instructions. There is only one God, and one mediator, Jesus Christ.

Well then, you shouldn't ask your friend to pray for you.

keano_afc · 03-05-2011 5:21pm

Donatello wrote: »

Well then, you shouldn't ask your friend to pray for you.

Why? If the friend then prays to God whats the problem?

Donatello · 03-05-2011 5:36pm

keano_afc wrote: »

Why? If the friend then prays to God whats the problem?

Your friend is an unnecessary mediator. Why not go straight to Christ yourself?

keano_afc · 03-05-2011 6:57pm

Donatello wrote: »

Your friend is an unnecessary mediator. Why not go straight to Christ yourself?

Nice to see we agree that there is only one mediator. I would often ask friends to pray for me though, as they go straight to Christ, the one mediator. We are often called to pray for each other. Never to "saints" though.

wolfsbane · 03-05-2011 7:21pm

tenchi-fan wrote: »

The church of England has a bonus saint who is not considered a saint by the Catholic church: Saint Charles Stuart

I'm more a fan of Saint Oliver Cromwell.

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James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

wolfsbane · 03-05-2011 7:26pm

getz wrote: »

no one is in heaven except god/jesus and the angels john 3:13 no one has ascended into heaven,except he who decended from heaven,the son of man,

That was before Christ arose, and took the OT saints from 'Abraham's Bosom' into heaven with Him. All Christians who die since have gone straight to be with Christ.

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Philippians 1:23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

Do Protestants believe in saints?

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