Do Protestants believe in saints?

Dionysus

I've long wondered this. I'm aware that Britain has its patron saints of George, Andrew and David but is that more of a hangover from pre-Reformation times?

Do Protestant churches believe in saints and, if so, have any of them declared somebody to be a 'saint' since the Reformation?

Thanks.

delta_bravo

I think its that the Protestant churches don't believe in the Communion of Saints. I may be corrected by someone more knowledgeable though.

PDN

delta_bravo wrote: »

I think its that the Protestant churches don't believe in the Communion of Saints. I may be corrected by someone more knowledgeable though.

Just about every Protestant Church would subscribe to the Apostles Creed which includes a reference to the Communion of the Saints.

Of course their interpretation of this would be very different to that of Roman Catholicism. Most Protestant Churches would see the communion of the saionts as referring to all believers in Christ in various movements and denopminations throughout the ages. Most would not pray to the saints.

delta_bravo

PDN wrote: »

Just about every Protestant Church would subscribe to the Apostles Creed which includes a reference to the Communion of the Saints.

Of course their interpretation of this would be very different to that of Roman Catholicism. Most Protestant Churches would see the communion of the saionts as referring to all believers in Christ in various movements and denopminations throughout the ages. Most would not pray to the saints.

Sorry yeah the last bit was what I was primarily referring to. No praying to St. Anthony to find the lost wallet

Sofiztikated

Yes, and no.

Yes, there are various saints. But no, they don't pray to them.

I mean, why would pray to someone when you could go straight to the big man himself?

Donatello

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Yes, and no.

Yes, there are various saints. But no, they don't pray to them.

I mean, why would pray to someone when you could go straight to the big man himself?

At the risk of repeating something that has been said before, would you ask a friend to pray for an intention? We believe the saints in heaven are with God. Just as you might ask a friend on the earth, so too you can ask the saints in heaven to intercede for you.

Dionysus

PDN wrote: »

Just about every Protestant Church would subscribe to the Apostles Creed which includes a reference to the Communion of the Saints.

Of course their interpretation of this would be very different to that of Roman Catholicism. Most Protestant Churches would see the communion of the saionts as referring to all believers in Christ in various movements and denopminations throughout the ages. Most would not pray to the saints.

OK, so all believers thoughout the centuries have been "saints"? What recognition do they give the historical saints, for instance pre-Reformation saints like Augustine?

Is there any cult of sainthood still in Protestant areas? For instance, all across Ireland saints are associated with different regions and you'll have a disproportionate number of people with the first name of their local saint in particular regions - e.g. Jarlath/Iarla in Galway, Brendan/Breandán in Kerry, Finian/Fionnán in Meath, Finbar/Fionnbharr in Cork, and so forth. Similarly, local wells and spas remain named after particular saints and there's usually a religious event there on the saint's feastday. Does that tradition continue across Britain, for instance?

Would Protestants be aware of the special virtues of particular saints - e.g. St Jude and hopeless cases? Aside from the apostle's creed, do saints play any role in their religious beliefs?

Soul Winner

The word saint in the Greek is hagios and the same word is sometimes translated holy in the English. It is simply someone who has given themselves over to something else, or someone who has committed themselves totally to a deity. When a person gives their life to God they at that moment are saints. Paul wrote to saints in his Epistles for instance. Paul never venerated these saints. Saints venerate God. Paul actually states in Ephesians 4:11 that He (God) gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints to the work of the ministry." Which means that saints are to be perfected. Saintliness is always so do with commitment not performance. Yes, certain saints may perform better than other saints and be remembered and revered for those things but it is not New Testament doctrine that saints should venerate saints, because that would take the focus away from God and thereby render the saint not a saint in the Christian sense. Admire? Yes. Worship or pray to? Never.

antiskeptic

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes, certain saints may perform better than other saints and be remembered and revered for those things but it is not New Testament doctrine that saints should venerate saints, because that would take the focus away from God and thereby render the saint not a saint in the Christian sense. Admire? Yes. Worship or pray to? Never.

For example:

I can admire Saint Soulwinner for his succint summary on the subject of saintliness.

But consult him on the whereabouts of my lost keys? Not a bit of it.

Donatello

antiskeptic wrote: »

For example:

I can admire Saint Soulwinner for his succint summary on the subject of saintliness.

But consult him on the whereabouts of my lost keys? Not a bit of it.

The idea is not to consult him about where the keys are, but to ask him to intercede for you to God so that you might find your keys.

optogirl

Donatello wrote: »

The idea is not to consult him about where the keys are, but to ask him to intercede for you to God so that you might find your keys.

cos god has nothing better to do than worry about where your keys are, make sure Celtic win cups and grant priviliged American actors oscars.

liamw

optogirl wrote: »

cos god has nothing better to do than worry about where your keys are, make sure Celtic win cups and grant priviliged American actors oscars.

He's omnipotent so he can do everything simulataneously.

Sofiztikated

Donatello wrote: »

At the risk of repeating something that has been said before, would you ask a friend to pray for an intention? We believe the saints in heaven are with God. Just as you might ask a friend on the earth, so too you can ask the saints in heaven to intercede for you.

My view on it would be:

You could ask a friend to do something for you. But if there was someone better I could ask, I would ask them.

Also, I don't be praying to any, or asking anyone to pray for me. Sofiztikated = Agnostic. Not a militant athiest though. I have my (lack of) belief and respect other peoples various beliefs.

Donatello

Sofiztikated wrote: »

My view on it would be:

You could ask a friend to do something for you. But if there was someone better I could ask, I would ask them.

Also, I don't be praying to any, or asking anyone to pray for me. Sofiztikated = Agnostic. Not a militant athiest though. I have my (lack of) belief and respect other peoples various beliefs.

It's probably best to get as many people on the case as possible. God might be busy, but if He has a lot of saints pestering Him about keys, He might just intervene, even if it is just to quiet the saints.

antiskeptic

Donatello wrote: »

The idea is not to consult him about where the keys are, but to ask him to intercede for you to God so that you might find your keys.

How very OT (and OTT )

Why would I (a saint) ask another saint to intercede with my father when I can ask my own father directly?

wolfsbane

Dionysus wrote: »

I've long wondered this. I'm aware that Britain has its patron saints of George, Andrew and David but is that more of a hangover from pre-Reformation times?

Do Protestant churches believe in saints and, if so, have any of them declared somebody to be a 'saint' since the Reformation?

Thanks.

All Christians are saints, in the Biblical use of the term 'saint'. We ask other living saints to pray for us, but we do not attempt to speak to dead saints. Departed saints are with Christ. But we have no grounds to think they can hear any of us, let alone thousands or millions speaking at once. Those attributes belong to God alone.

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James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

Donatello

wolfsbane wrote: »

All Christians are saints, in the Biblical use of the term 'saint'. We ask other living saints to pray for us, but we do not attempt to speak to dead saints. Departed saints are with Christ. But we have no grounds to think they can hear any of us, let alone thousands or millions speaking at once. Those attributes belong to God alone.

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James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

Saints are alive in Christ!

antiskeptic

Donatello wrote: »

Saints are alive in Christ!

Yes. But is there any reason to suppose they can hear us?

Wolfsbane wrote:

Departed saints are with Christ. But we have no grounds to think they can hear any of us, let alone thousands or millions speaking at once.

A quick check saw a Catholic apologetics site turn in the first instance to the highly symbolic Revelation (of all places) for firm foundation. Heaven help us indeed!

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp


Is there anything more biblically substantial to prop this particular doctrine against?

Donatello

antiskeptic wrote: »

Yes. But is there any reason to suppose they can hear us?

Well, I can 'hear' you, and I'm not in heaven. I expect they at least have high-speed broadband in heaven. Perhaps they have something better?

tenchi-fan

The church of England has a bonus saint who is not considered a saint by the Catholic church: Saint Charles Stuart

Dionysus

tenchi-fan wrote: »

The church of England has a bonus saint who is not considered a saint by the Catholic church: Saint Charles Stuart

Very interesting! The article also says he's "the only saint to be officially canonised within the Anglican Communion". That's the sort of thing I was wondering about. The article also states "There are many societies dedicated to his devotion." which makes me wonder how that works if Protestants don't pray etc to saints. Any ideas, people?

Dionysus

antiskeptic wrote: »

How very OT (and OTT )

Why would I (a saint) ask another saint to intercede with my father when I can ask my own father directly?

This has taken a hilarious twist but seeing as you mention the above, I used to ask my Mam to intercede with my Dad when he wouldn't be the most amenable to allowing us do something. And that often worked. Maybe, like my Mam, the saints have more influence with the man above? (if we're really going to stretch that analogy!)

getz

wolfsbane wrote: »

All Christians are saints, in the Biblical use of the term 'saint'. We ask other living saints to pray for us, but we do not attempt to speak to dead saints. Departed saints are with Christ. But we have no grounds to think they can hear any of us, let alone thousands or millions speaking at once. Those attributes belong to God alone.

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James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

no one is in heaven except god/jesus and the angels john 3:13 no one has ascended into heaven,except he who decended from heaven,the son of man,

philologos

Protestants are not a homogenous block, this is why one could expect that there are varied opinions on this. I believe wolfsbane is right that all Christians are saints. Paul writes to the Christian communities much in this manner.

TravelJunkie

Dionysus wrote: »

This has taken a hilarious twist but seeing as you mention the above, I used to ask my Mam to intercede with my Dad when he wouldn't be the most amenable to allowing us do something. And that often worked. Maybe, like my Mam, the saints have more influence with the man above? (if we're really going to stretch that analogy!)

All these arguments whether you can or cannot pray to saints would be fine if God actually wanted you to pray to saints. But he doesn't. We have clear instructions. There is only one God, and one mediator, Jesus Christ.

Donatello

TravelJunkie wrote: »

All these arguments whether you can or cannot pray to saints would be fine if God actually wanted you to pray to saints. But he doesn't. We have clear instructions. There is only one God, and one mediator, Jesus Christ.

Well then, you shouldn't ask your friend to pray for you.

keano_afc

Donatello wrote: »

Well then, you shouldn't ask your friend to pray for you.

Why? If the friend then prays to God whats the problem?

Donatello

keano_afc wrote: »

Why? If the friend then prays to God whats the problem?

Your friend is an unnecessary mediator. Why not go straight to Christ yourself?

keano_afc

Donatello wrote: »

Your friend is an unnecessary mediator. Why not go straight to Christ yourself?

Nice to see we agree that there is only one mediator. I would often ask friends to pray for me though, as they go straight to Christ, the one mediator. We are often called to pray for each other. Never to "saints" though.

wolfsbane

tenchi-fan wrote: »

The church of England has a bonus saint who is not considered a saint by the Catholic church: Saint Charles Stuart

I'm more a fan of Saint Oliver Cromwell.

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James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

wolfsbane

getz wrote: »

no one is in heaven except god/jesus and the angels john 3:13 no one has ascended into heaven,except he who decended from heaven,the son of man,

That was before Christ arose, and took the OT saints from 'Abraham's Bosom' into heaven with Him. All Christians who die since have gone straight to be with Christ.

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Philippians 1:23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

That was before Christ arose, and took the OT saints from 'Abraham's Bosom' into heaven with Him. All Christians who die since have gone straight to be with Christ.

How do you square that with Revelation 20:15

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire


Or Matthew 7:21-23

[21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

It would appear that the Lord, by way of the Bible record, contradicts you. Go figure.

wolfsbane

Festus said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
That was before Christ arose, and took the OT saints from 'Abraham's Bosom' into heaven with Him. All Christians who die since have gone straight to be with Christ.
How do you square that with Revelation 20:15

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire


Or Matthew 7:21-23

[21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

It would appear that the Lord, by way of the Bible record, contradicts you. Go figure.

I don't see your point. Unless you hold that man is not body and spirit, just body. The resurrection spoken of here is of the body, not the spirit.

The wicked spirits have been in Hades awaiting judgement Day; the righteous spirits have been with Christ, also awaiting the Judgement Day. On that Day, body and spirit are re-united. The spirits are re-united with their bodies at the resurrection, and go to their appropriate place.

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Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

Festus said:

I don't see your point. Unless you hold that man is not body and spirit, just body. The resurrection spoken of here is of the body, not the spirit.

I can understand if you cannot see my point. We both think differently.
However I will thank you not to tell me what I hold and then spin your own strawman arguement.

wolfsbane wrote: »

The wicked spirits have been in Hades awaiting judgement Day; the righteous spirits have been with Christ, also awaiting the Judgement Day.

Do you have Biblical support for that assertion?

wolfsbane wrote: »

On that Day, body and spirit are re-united. The spirits are re-united with their bodies at the resurrection,...

This much is true

wolfsbane wrote: »

and go to their appropriate place.

...eh, what about the judgement?

wolfsbane

Festus said:Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I don't see your point. Unless you hold that man is not body and spirit, just body. The resurrection spoken of here is of the body, not the spirit.
I can understand if you cannot see my point. We both think differently.
However I will thank you not to tell me what I hold and then spin your own strawman arguement.

Which is why I said, 'Unless you hold'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The wicked spirits have been in Hades awaiting judgement Day; the righteous spirits have been with Christ, also awaiting the Judgement Day.
Do you have Biblical support for that assertion?

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left...... 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
On that Day, body and spirit are re-united. The spirits are re-united with their bodies at the resurrection,...
This much is true

Glad we agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
and go to their appropriate place.
...eh, what about the judgement?

Sorry, I took that for granted. Yes, the Matthew 25 Judgement formally assigns them to their appropriate place.

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Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Those slain for the word of God and for the testimony they held. This refers to the martys who we know go straight to Heaven.
Do you think yourself a martyr?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

St Paul speaking for Himself. Having seen Christ, spoken with Him and being guided by the Holy Spirit had some insight.
He is here speaking of himself not mere followers. Nowhere here does St. Paul extend this to you or me.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Are you a beggar like Lazarus. Have you been refused crumbs from the tables of the rich? Are you covered in sores living a life of misery?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left...... 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

THis is the judgement. Nothing here to support your notion that all who cry "Lord, Lord" will be taken straight His bosom upon death.

wolfsbane

Festus wrote: »

Those slain for the word of God and for the testimony they held. This refers to the martys who we know go straight to Heaven.
Do you think yourself a martyr?



St Paul speaking for Himself. Having seen Christ, spoken with Him and being guided by the Holy Spirit had some insight.
He is here speaking of himself not mere followers. Nowhere here does St. Paul extend this to you or me.



Are you a beggar like Lazarus. Have you been refused crumbs from the tables of the rich? Are you covered in sores living a life of misery?



THis is the judgement. Nothing here to support your notion that all who cry "Lord, Lord" will be taken straight His bosom upon death.

I think I see what you wish to establish - purgatory.

EVERY mention of the departed righteous shows them with Christ on death - but you say that applies only to the apostle(s?), the martyrs and beggars.

I'm afraid that is stretching normal language and logic beyond breaking point.

Let me ask you, How do you equate 'sleeping in Jesus' with suffering in purgatory?


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1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

I think I see what you wish to establish - purgatory.

You think you see but you only see what you want to see.

Purgatory was not my intention but yours so the rest of your post is irrelevant.

wolfsbane

Festus wrote: »

You think you see but you only see what you want to see.

Purgatory was not my intention but yours so the rest of your post is irrelevant.

Then forgive my mistake, for I'm then at a loss to see what you are saying about those who die now. Please elaborate.

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1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

J C

Festus wrote: »

Those slain for the word of God and for the testimony they held. This refers to the martys who we know go straight to Heaven.
Do you think yourself a martyr?
The spirit of every Saved Christian goes straight to be with Jesus Christ in Heaven when they die. Of course, the martyrs in Revelation 6:9-11 are in Heaven ... but these verses are primarily focussed their request for vengeance!!!

St Paul speaking for Himself. Having seen Christ, spoken with Him and being guided by the Holy Spirit had some insight.
He is here speaking of himself not mere followers. Nowhere here does St. Paul extend this to you or me.
St Paul is no different from any other Saved Christian ... who will all go straight to Heaven to be with Jesus Christ when they die.

In these verses St Paul tells every person that they can be Saved just like him.
1 Timothy 1:15-16 (New International Version)
5 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

In these verses Jesus Christ himself confirms that everyone who believes on Him will be Saved ... and go directly to be with Him when they die:-
Luke 23:42-44 (New International Version)

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Are you a beggar like Lazarus. Have you been refused crumbs from the tables of the rich? Are you covered in sores living a life of misery?
I am not a beggar in the eyes of this World ... but I am a beggar in the eyes of the Lord!!!

THis is the judgement. Nothing here to support your notion that all who cry "Lord, Lord" will be taken straight His bosom upon death.
Wolfsbane was answering your question about the Judgement with that verse!!!
It confirms that there will be false Christians who are never Saved ... yet give an outwards appearance of being 'Christians' ... and are condemned with the Damned at the Judgement

.

DM addict

Not a biblical scholar, but speaking as a Protestant - we believe that saints were very holy people but we don't pray to them.

J C

DM addict wrote: »

Not a biblical scholar, but speaking as a Protestant - we believe that saints were very holy people but we don't pray to them.

I'm a Saint ... but I'm not particularly 'holy' ... just an ordinary Saint ... Saved through the blood of Jesus Christ.

J C

DM addict wrote: »

Not a biblical scholar, but speaking as a Protestant - we believe that saints were very holy people but we don't pray to them.

... you say you are a 'protestant' ... who believes that Saints are very holy people ... does this mean that you are an Anglican/Episcopalian ?

J C

Dionysus wrote: »

This has taken a hilarious twist but seeing as you mention the above, I used to ask my Mam to intercede with my Dad when he wouldn't be the most amenable to allowing us do something. And that often worked. Maybe, like my Mam, the saints have more influence with the man above? (if we're really going to stretch that analogy!)

We are talking about Almighty God here ... not somebody's father ... who has got 'issues'!!!:D:eek:
This idea that there is a group of 'jim will fix it' people in Heaven waiting on our next call is rather bizzarre ... when Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God themselves ... and they have a 'direct line' to Jesus Christ himself ... when they call on Him!!!
1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,