Do Protestants believe in saints?

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

That was before Christ arose, and took the OT saints from 'Abraham's Bosom' into heaven with Him. All Christians who die since have gone straight to be with Christ.

How do you square that with Revelation 20:15

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire


Or Matthew 7:21-23

[21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

It would appear that the Lord, by way of the Bible record, contradicts you. Go figure.

wolfsbane

Festus said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
That was before Christ arose, and took the OT saints from 'Abraham's Bosom' into heaven with Him. All Christians who die since have gone straight to be with Christ.
How do you square that with Revelation 20:15

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire


Or Matthew 7:21-23

[21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

It would appear that the Lord, by way of the Bible record, contradicts you. Go figure.

I don't see your point. Unless you hold that man is not body and spirit, just body. The resurrection spoken of here is of the body, not the spirit.

The wicked spirits have been in Hades awaiting judgement Day; the righteous spirits have been with Christ, also awaiting the Judgement Day. On that Day, body and spirit are re-united. The spirits are re-united with their bodies at the resurrection, and go to their appropriate place.

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Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

Festus said:

I don't see your point. Unless you hold that man is not body and spirit, just body. The resurrection spoken of here is of the body, not the spirit.

I can understand if you cannot see my point. We both think differently.
However I will thank you not to tell me what I hold and then spin your own strawman arguement.

wolfsbane wrote: »

The wicked spirits have been in Hades awaiting judgement Day; the righteous spirits have been with Christ, also awaiting the Judgement Day.

Do you have Biblical support for that assertion?

wolfsbane wrote: »

On that Day, body and spirit are re-united. The spirits are re-united with their bodies at the resurrection,...

This much is true

wolfsbane wrote: »

and go to their appropriate place.

...eh, what about the judgement?

wolfsbane

Festus said:Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I don't see your point. Unless you hold that man is not body and spirit, just body. The resurrection spoken of here is of the body, not the spirit.
I can understand if you cannot see my point. We both think differently.
However I will thank you not to tell me what I hold and then spin your own strawman arguement.

Which is why I said, 'Unless you hold'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The wicked spirits have been in Hades awaiting judgement Day; the righteous spirits have been with Christ, also awaiting the Judgement Day.
Do you have Biblical support for that assertion?

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left...... 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
On that Day, body and spirit are re-united. The spirits are re-united with their bodies at the resurrection,...
This much is true

Glad we agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
and go to their appropriate place.
...eh, what about the judgement?

Sorry, I took that for granted. Yes, the Matthew 25 Judgement formally assigns them to their appropriate place.

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Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Those slain for the word of God and for the testimony they held. This refers to the martys who we know go straight to Heaven.
Do you think yourself a martyr?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

St Paul speaking for Himself. Having seen Christ, spoken with Him and being guided by the Holy Spirit had some insight.
He is here speaking of himself not mere followers. Nowhere here does St. Paul extend this to you or me.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Are you a beggar like Lazarus. Have you been refused crumbs from the tables of the rich? Are you covered in sores living a life of misery?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left...... 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

THis is the judgement. Nothing here to support your notion that all who cry "Lord, Lord" will be taken straight His bosom upon death.

wolfsbane

Festus wrote: »

Those slain for the word of God and for the testimony they held. This refers to the martys who we know go straight to Heaven.
Do you think yourself a martyr?



St Paul speaking for Himself. Having seen Christ, spoken with Him and being guided by the Holy Spirit had some insight.
He is here speaking of himself not mere followers. Nowhere here does St. Paul extend this to you or me.



Are you a beggar like Lazarus. Have you been refused crumbs from the tables of the rich? Are you covered in sores living a life of misery?



THis is the judgement. Nothing here to support your notion that all who cry "Lord, Lord" will be taken straight His bosom upon death.

I think I see what you wish to establish - purgatory.

EVERY mention of the departed righteous shows them with Christ on death - but you say that applies only to the apostle(s?), the martyrs and beggars.

I'm afraid that is stretching normal language and logic beyond breaking point.

Let me ask you, How do you equate 'sleeping in Jesus' with suffering in purgatory?


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1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

I think I see what you wish to establish - purgatory.

You think you see but you only see what you want to see.

Purgatory was not my intention but yours so the rest of your post is irrelevant.

wolfsbane

Festus wrote: »

You think you see but you only see what you want to see.

Purgatory was not my intention but yours so the rest of your post is irrelevant.

Then forgive my mistake, for I'm then at a loss to see what you are saying about those who die now. Please elaborate.

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1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

J C

Festus wrote: »

Those slain for the word of God and for the testimony they held. This refers to the martys who we know go straight to Heaven.
Do you think yourself a martyr?
The spirit of every Saved Christian goes straight to be with Jesus Christ in Heaven when they die. Of course, the martyrs in Revelation 6:9-11 are in Heaven ... but these verses are primarily focussed their request for vengeance!!!

St Paul speaking for Himself. Having seen Christ, spoken with Him and being guided by the Holy Spirit had some insight.
He is here speaking of himself not mere followers. Nowhere here does St. Paul extend this to you or me.
St Paul is no different from any other Saved Christian ... who will all go straight to Heaven to be with Jesus Christ when they die.

In these verses St Paul tells every person that they can be Saved just like him.
1 Timothy 1:15-16 (New International Version)
5 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

In these verses Jesus Christ himself confirms that everyone who believes on Him will be Saved ... and go directly to be with Him when they die:-
Luke 23:42-44 (New International Version)

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Are you a beggar like Lazarus. Have you been refused crumbs from the tables of the rich? Are you covered in sores living a life of misery?
I am not a beggar in the eyes of this World ... but I am a beggar in the eyes of the Lord!!!

THis is the judgement. Nothing here to support your notion that all who cry "Lord, Lord" will be taken straight His bosom upon death.
Wolfsbane was answering your question about the Judgement with that verse!!!
It confirms that there will be false Christians who are never Saved ... yet give an outwards appearance of being 'Christians' ... and are condemned with the Damned at the Judgement

.

DM addict

Not a biblical scholar, but speaking as a Protestant - we believe that saints were very holy people but we don't pray to them.

J C

DM addict wrote: »

Not a biblical scholar, but speaking as a Protestant - we believe that saints were very holy people but we don't pray to them.

I'm a Saint ... but I'm not particularly 'holy' ... just an ordinary Saint ... Saved through the blood of Jesus Christ.

J C

DM addict wrote: »

Not a biblical scholar, but speaking as a Protestant - we believe that saints were very holy people but we don't pray to them.

... you say you are a 'protestant' ... who believes that Saints are very holy people ... does this mean that you are an Anglican/Episcopalian ?

J C

Dionysus wrote: »

This has taken a hilarious twist but seeing as you mention the above, I used to ask my Mam to intercede with my Dad when he wouldn't be the most amenable to allowing us do something. And that often worked. Maybe, like my Mam, the saints have more influence with the man above? (if we're really going to stretch that analogy!)

We are talking about Almighty God here ... not somebody's father ... who has got 'issues'!!!:D:eek:
This idea that there is a group of 'jim will fix it' people in Heaven waiting on our next call is rather bizzarre ... when Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God themselves ... and they have a 'direct line' to Jesus Christ himself ... when they call on Him!!!
1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,