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Taxi Driver Behaviour

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  • 26-04-2011 11:02am
    #1
    ripcord
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭


    Hi all.

    Last night I was driving straight through a roundabout. There were two lanes entering the roundabout - but only one lane exiting. Coming up to it, I was on the left lane, taxi driver on the right. Both of us went for the exit staight ahead. He cut across me, so I blew the horn at him.

    Now, there are actually two exits before the one that's straight ahead. If the roundabout was a clock, we were entering at 6, leaving at 12, with exits at 8 and 10. I know some people will say I was in the correct lane (for going straight ahead) but some people will say the taxi was correct (it's technically the third exit).

    However, none of this is the issue. Guess what happened next! The taxi driver stops in the middle of the road. I am now stuck - blocking the exit to the roundabout we just took. He takes off his seatbelt. Gets out of his car. Walks up to my car (looking like he wants a fight!) and motions me to roll down the window.

    Worse fool I was - I rolled down the window.
    He said: "Why did you blow at me?".
    I said: "Because you cut me off at the roundabout".
    He said: "There's two other exits first. One going to XXX and one going to xxx. Learn to f@cking drive!".
    And then he stormed back to his car and drove off!

    I was in shock! I honestly thought he was going to start a fight! I took his badge number and rang the company. I told the girl who answered what happened and she said she would tell her manager about it. I said I would contact the taxi regulator, but I probably won't bother as nothing would come of it (no witnesses/evidence etc.)

    I can't believe he acted this way! I wouldn't mind if it was some random scumbag, but a licensed taxi driver? I'd be happy with some sort of apology from the manager, but it's unlikely.
    Any other suggestions? Thanks.
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    exits are done by the clock approach, not the exit number, as confirmed to members of the motoring forum by the RSA. So you were right and he was wrong. :)
    anything before 12 o clock is left lane, anything after is right unless road markings indicate otherwise


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    #3
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    current ads on TV say if you are turning left be on the left, if right be on the right, if straight ahead be on the left lane....seems you were correct.


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    #4
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    The brain teaser that are roundabouts.:rolleyes:

    Two things.

    Taxi Drivers behaviour was out of order. He has something to lose. I learned the hard way about road rage. Its futile.

    Roundabouts are governed by general rules and site specific signage that may contradict the general rules for certain reasons. Have a look at the pic below. Its a problematic roundabout in Naas. The general roundabout rules are not used here. Signage advises that you use the RIGHT lane to travel what appears to be straight ahead onto the M7 flyover. (third exit) Now technically its not exactly straight ahead, but it does look like it is and it is a case of two approaching lanes with single exit lanes. The vast majority of drivers DO NOT look at the signage and use the left lane to take the third exit (straight ahead). I've experienced lots of near misses and tonnes of abuse at this location even though I am obeying the rules.

    The correct way to use a roundabout is to be aware of general rules and site specific signage Maybe the OP could put up a Google maps image of the roundabout approach.

    Maudlins Roundabout.jpg


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    #5
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,546 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    The brain teaser that are roundabouts.:rolleyes:

    Two things.

    Taxi Drivers behaviour was out of order. He has something to lose. I learned the hard way about road rage. Its futile.

    Roundabouts are governed by general rules and site specific signage that may contradict the general rules for certain reasons. Have a look at the pic below. Its a problematic roundabout in Naas. The general roundabout rules are not used here. Signage advises that you use the RIGHT lane to travel what appears to be straight ahead onto the M7 flyover. (third exit) Now technically its not exactly straight ahead, but it does look like it is and it is a case of two approaching lanes with single exit lanes. The vast majority of drivers DO NOT look at the signage and use the left lane to take the third exit (straight ahead). I've experienced lots of near misses and tonnes of abuse at this location even though I am obeying the rules.

    The correct way to use a roundabout is to be aware of general rules and site specific signage Maybe the OP could put up a Google maps image of the roundabout approach.

    Maudlins Roundabout.jpg

    Indeed. Some roundabouts are like that to be more logical with traffic (eg. Not many of the queue want to goto Sallins so why get stuck queuing)

    Instead of giving general rules, each roundabout should have very clear specific signage (and road markings) to tell the driver where to go.


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    #6
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    the point should be made that if the taxi was indicating left and in front of the OP, then the OP should have left him go. (probably a big IF)


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    #7
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    corktina wrote: »
    the point should be made that if the taxi was indicating left and in front of the OP, then the OP should have left him go. (probably a big IF)

    no, he still doesn't have the right to cut into the lane infront of the OP as the lane would not have been clear due to the OP's car and it would not have been safe to change lanes, unless he was a reasonable distance ahead.


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    #8
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i didnt say he had the RIGHT to do it, just if he had indicated his intention to change lane the car behind should adjust its position.


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    #9
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    no, he still doesn't have the right to cut into the lane infront of the OP as the lane would not have been clear due to the OP's car and it would not have been safe to change lanes, unless he was a reasonable distance ahead.

    It is not acceptable to occupy the outer lane of a roundabout and continue around it refusing exits while expecting those in the inner lane to give you priority as you are just staying in lane.

    That is not how roundabouts work.

    To the OP: You may or may not have been in the wrong but either way you initiated the aggression by blowing your horn, this does not excuse the disgraceful behaviour of the taxi driver exiting his car to confront you but if you cannot admit to the poor actions you took in the incident I don't really have much sympathy for you.

    It is just another case of two people with poor driving skills who resort to agression when their lack of driving ability causes them to feel slighted by another bad driver's actions.

    The amount of drivers in this country who seem to think that it is acceptable to become openly agressive in person or by driving in a way to purposely provoke another driver is unbelievable and it is mostly down to poor education and general ignorance of the most basic rules of driving.

    It is hard not to single out taxi drivers as a shining example of this, I know it is a generalisation but the only time I now find myself surprised by the actions of taxi drivers in Dublin is when I see one driving correctly or courteously towards other road users. Every single day I am on the roads I see not one but dozens of taxis breaking the most basic rules, these are not careless acts but deliberate ones commited by people who believe that the rules are not applicable to them. To call these people professional drivers is a joke and a slap in the face to true professional drivers. I could fill this website with a catalogue of the unprofessional, illegal, anti-social and dangerous driving i see from taxis every day but what is the point, there is obviously no will on the part of the authorities to do anything about bad driving beyond enforcing arbitrary speed limits on straight sections of the country's N and R road network.


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    #10
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    It is not acceptable to occupy the outer lane of a roundabout and continue around it refusing exits while expecting those in the inner lane to give you priority as you are just staying in lane.

    That is not how roundabouts work.

    I never said it was but if the 3th or 4th or whatever exit is before 12 o clock you are rightly in the left hand lane bypassing exits...
    Obviously going all the way round in the outside lane is wrong but for ~50% of the roundabout it's exactly what you should be doing


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    #11
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Vic_08 wrote: »

    To the OP: You may or may not have been in the wrong but either way you initiated the aggression by blowing your horn, this does not excuse the disgraceful behaviour of the taxi driver exiting his car to confront you but if you cannot admit to the poor actions you took in the incident I don't really have much sympathy for you.

    So blowing your horn is now an automatic way of initiating aggression? I must remember that the next time a car nearly collides with me.:rolleyes:

    And from the OPs description, what poor actions did he/she take?


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    #12
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    So blowing your horn is now an automatic way of initiating aggression? I must remember that the next time a car nearly collides with me.:rolleyes:

    Sounds like you shold read up the rules of the road as well. The Horn should only be used to warn of danger or bring attention to your presence for safety reasons. It is not for giving voice to your anger that someone has cut you up after the fact.

    If a car is apparently heading towards a collision you should use your horn, if it comes close to colliding but the danger passes and you subsequently blast them out of it then all you are doing is shaking your fist at them. It is only human nature to do that and I am sure we have all done it at some point but that doesn't make it right.

    Like it or not getting into a situation where you nearly have an accident in that sort of situation is a pretty good indication of poor driving no matter which person is actually in the wrong. A good driver should anticipate these situations and not be surprised when the likes of a taxi driver cuts infront of them from the wrong lane. Unfortunately in this country we have no culture of good driving, for the vast majority the pinnacle of driver education is struggling to pass the basic test which just about proves a person is not an abject danger to everyone else on the road for 30 minutes.


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    #13
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    Sounds like you shold read up the rules of the road as well. The Horn should only be used to warn of danger or bring attention to your presence for safety reasons. It is not for giving voice to your anger that someone has cut you up after the fact.

    If a car is apparently heading towards a collision you should use your horn, if it comes close to colliding but the danger passes and you subsequently blast them out of it then all you are doing is shaking your fist at them. It is only human nature to do that and I am sure we have all done it at some point but that doesn't make it right.

    Like it or not getting into a situation where you nearly have an accident in that sort of situation is a pretty good indication of poor driving no matter which person is actually in the wrong. A good driver should anticipate these situations and not be surprised when the likes of a taxi driver cuts infront of them from the wrong lane. Unfortunately in this country we have no culture of good driving, for the vast majority the pinnacle of driver education is struggling to pass the basic test which just about proves a person is not an abject danger to everyone else on the road for 30 minutes.

    Please don't make assumptions about my knowledge of road rules just like you have made assumptions about the OPs actions. The OP may have blown the horn to alert the taxi driver that he too was heading in the same direction and to make sure they didn't collide. Stop pontificating when you dont have all the facts.

    I gave an example above of a roundabout in Naas. I regularly have to anticipate others mistakes on that roundabout and still have to blow the horn, because my anticipation may involve me stopping and thereby creating another potential accident. Anticipation can be a double edged sword.


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    #14
    ripcord
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ripcord


    Vic_08 wrote: »

    To the OP: You may or may not have been in the wrong but either way you initiated the aggression by blowing your horn, this does not excuse the disgraceful behaviour of the taxi driver exiting his car to confront you but if you cannot admit to the poor actions you took in the incident I don't really have much sympathy for you.

    It is just another case of two people with poor driving skills who resort to agression when their lack of driving ability causes them to feel slighted by another bad driver's actions.

    .

    Hold on a sec there buddy. You seem to be creating your own little scenario there, filling in the pieces however you like! Unless you were standing in the center of the roundabout at the time - think before you type!!

    I have excellent driving skills. Have never even tipped another car. Driving for many years. Past my test first time - having only driven for 6 months beforehand. I'm cautious and i'm no boy racer (I can't stand them). However I bow to your superior skills Vic. Maybe soon I could PM you and get some lessons? To hopefully stop this from happening to me again? :rolleyes:

    Both of us entered the roundabout side by side. By the time we were near 12 o'clock, he was slightly ahead (as he was in the inside lane). Then he did the age-old trick of starting to indicate just AFTER he starts to cut across me. I only blew my horn to indicate the that I was there and avoid the crash. Just like you said I should (during one of your 'perfect driving' seminars). No agression on my part.

    For those with the helpful replies (i.e. not busy confusing this with a short story they are writing), thanks. I'm sure I was in the right. I was kinda looking for ideas on what to do now. I've rang the company twice but the manager hasn't called me back.
    Should I:
    1. Leave it alone.
    2. Talk to the manager over the phone. Take whatever weak apology he offers and accept that he'll probably have a good laugh with the driver about it at my expense.
    3. Demand to meet the manager and the driver at their base. Get an apology from both, face to face.

    Vote now! :)


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    #15
    ripcord
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ripcord


    This is classic :D
    Vic_08 wrote: »
    ... A good driver should anticipate these situations and not be surprised when the likes of a taxi driver cuts infront of them from the wrong lane...

    Vic - you would not be surprised if someone cut in front of you like this??? Are you such a good driver that you have some sort of extra-sensory perception about these things?? You sound fantastic!!! :pac:

    I'd love to be a passenger in your car! I wonder would it be like something from the Matrix? When you go on a roundabout does time slow-down??
    :pac::pac::pac:


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    #16
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Op you should write to the taxi regulator and complain giving the drivers badge number etc as nothing can be done without this happening first.

    As for the issue of you using your horn, good drivers never/rarely use the horn as they drive in a defensive manner which I feel Vic_08 was talking about and had you driven defensibly you would have been prepared for some numpty to "cut you up" and would have reduced speed accordingly before the incident to allow the taxi to get in front of you. There is a massive difference between what is considered defensive/passive and aggressive driving styles and defensive drivers are known to be much more courteous and to have less "accidents".


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    #17
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    only half read the post too tired now, so i wont get into who was right or wrong. but just for reference ringing his company wont do you any good he doesnt work for the company he just rents the radio off them, and a lot of the company owners wont give a ****e.


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    #18
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    ripcord wrote: »
    Should I:
    1. Leave it alone.
    2. Talk to the manager over the phone. Take whatever weak apology he offers and accept that he'll probably have a good laugh with the driver about it at my expense.
    3. Demand to meet the manager and the driver at their base. Get an apology from both, face to face.

    Vote now! :)

    I'm going for:
    4. Report the incident to the Taxi Regulator and your local Garda station.

    They may do nothing about it, but if it even gets as far as them giving him a bollocking and a scare then it's about as much as you can ask for.


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    #19
    ripcord
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ripcord


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Op you should write to the taxi regulator and complain giving the drivers badge number etc as nothing can be done without this happening first.

    As for the issue of you using your horn, good drivers never/rarely use the horn as they drive in a defensive manner which I feel Vic_08 was talking about and had you driven defensibly you would have been prepared for some numpty to "cut you up" and would have reduced speed accordingly before the incident to allow the taxi to get in front of you. There is a massive difference between what is considered defensive/passive and aggressive driving styles and defensive drivers are known to be much more courteous and to have less "accidents".

    Sorry foggy_lad, you're wrong there (although I agree with your take on good drivers). I am a defensive driver. I rarely use my horn. I wasn't going fast on the roundabout. However nothing can prepare you for what the taxi did - save stopping completely on the roundabout before every exit!
    The only reason we didn't actually crash was because of my defensive driving and the fact that he heard my horn as he was cutting across me. I have no doubts about my driving ability and that I was completely in the right.
    My main issue with Vic was the redicolous way he/she assumed to know exactly what happened, and then claimed I was a poor driver and gave a lecture!! :rolleyes: Some people....


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    #20
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    What if this taxi driver were to have left his cab to have confronted an elderly lady? Or a 17 year old girl? Or a woman with a young child?

    Sorry to use only females as an example but the truth is that some people are more vulnerable. What if he takes it a stage further with a middle aged man?

    If you make a complaint to the regulator or gardaí, they might not follow it up this time but they'll have a record of him behaving aggressively towards other road users. If someone makes a complaint about a similar car with no taxi or reg number then they can start by looking at him.

    Put it on the record and then you have done all you can.


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    #21
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    For fecks sake, build a bridge and get over it, if everyone was to post a thread every time they got cut up ( by a taxi or not ) Boards would need a server upgrade every few hours!

    Two of you were in the wrong for trying to occupy the same space on the road at the same time ( one of the main factors in accidents! )

    The taxi driver was in the wrong for stopping the vehicle and remonstrating with you over the horn, a middle digit would have been sufficent :)

    As to reporting to the taxi company, as said the radio rental is all they are concerned with, the TR will tell you to report it to the Gardai, the Gardai will probably just ask what witness's you have and leave it at that

    Further comment will only be needed when we have the exact location of the RAB so that people can make there own mind up about which way they would approach the RAB


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    #22
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    pso75.jpg
    2s63uyf.png

    Hate to think how some people would cope with this one that I used to navigate on a regular basis :)


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    #23
    ripcord
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ripcord


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    For fecks sake, build a bridge and get over it, if everyone was to post a thread every time they got cut up ( by a taxi or not ) Boards would need a server upgrade every few hours!

    Relax! Chill out... I was really looking for advice on the whole "taxi driver getting out and being agressive" - which would not happen to eveyone regularly. Noone would post here JUST because they got cut off...
    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Two of you were in the wrong for trying to occupy the same space on the road at the same time ( one of the main factors in accidents! )

    Incorrect. I was in the right as I was occupying the correct space. He was in the wrong for trying to unlawfully occpuy the space I was in. (This is starting to sound like a stephen hawking book :))
    Spook_ie wrote: »
    The taxi driver was in the wrong for stopping the vehicle and remonstrating with you over the horn, a middle digit would have been sufficent :)
    Correct. And although pretty annoyed, at least I wouln't have felt threatened by the middle digit!
    Spook_ie wrote: »
    As to reporting to the taxi company, as said the radio rental is all they are concerned with, the TR will tell you to report it to the Gardai, the Gardai will probably just ask what witness's you have and leave it at that
    Not sure how that works, but it's not the road I want to go down (no pun intended!)
    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Further comment will only be needed when we have the exact location of the RAB so that people can make there own mind up about which way they would approach the RAB
    Don't need to do this, as I am now 100% sure I was in the right.


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    #24
    ripcord
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ripcord


    Well folks
    Thanks for all the comments. From my inital post, I was really only looking for advice on what to do about the taxi drivers behaviour - I was already pretty sure I was in the correct lane.

    Saying that, to those who pointed me towards the new rules of the road, thank you. It seems they've done away with "first exit", "second exit" and now it's more based on the idea of going left, stright on, or right. I kinda already knew this, but I'm happy as I'm now 100% sure.

    To those who decided to make up the story themselves, assume I'm a bad driver, or start theoretical discussions about the driving culture in this country, thanks for the entertainment! :rolleyes:

    To those who gave advice on my next course of action, cheers for that. I really didn't want to go down the whole garda/regulator route (up the walls at the minute).

    I got a phone call from the manager today. He sounded like a genuine fella. I explained exactly what happened. He actually agreed I was in the correct lane, and admitted it reflected badly on the whole company. He said the driver was not the sort of fella to do this, and he would ring him about it.
    I reckon he will contact the driver. Will anything change? No. But at least the driver will know I don't find his actions acceptable.

    Funnily enough, part of me is worried for the taxi driver! If he does this regularly, one of these days he will do it to some psycho and then he's f*cked!

    In any case, it's over as far as I'm concerned. Thanks fellow boardsies. :)


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    #25
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Still wanna know where the exact location of the RAB was, otherwise we'll have to take a judgmental stance based on hearsay,ne'ersay and what he said, I said and that they said, and on that basis you were both in the wrong :)


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    #26
    dirtynosebeps
    Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭dirtynosebeps


    ripcord you were in the correct lane for taking your exit, taxi driver was in the wrong lane. theres nothing more that can be said. next time it happens just take the plate number and report it to you local garda station. the rules of the road are there for everyone and not just the majority, and that goes for junctions. taxi drivers are not exempt from the rules of the road and that includes going straight in left or right hand turn only lanes unless it's specified. my examples being bachelors walk onto eden quay. it is illegal for any vehicle to proceed straight if in the left land for turning onto o'connell street, same applies for using the left lane in westmareland street for turning left onto aston quay here again it is illegal for any vehicle to proceed straight whilest in the left lane. the good point about your thread is it shows the amount of people who dont know the rules of the road.


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    #27
    ripcord
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ripcord


    This is brilliant!!
    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Still wanna know where the exact location of the RAB was, otherwise we'll have to take a judgmental stance based on hearsay,ne'ersay and what he said, I said and that they said, and on that basis you were both in the wrong :)

    That is the most rediculous piece of logic I've ever heard! You're assuming because of lack of evidence you can't say I was right - yet you CAN say both of us were wrong??? :pac::pac::pac:

    Maybe I'll put up the location. Or maybe a fake location!!!! How would your judgemental stance fare then? At what point do you believe me?? ;)

    I've given a good enough description for most people to understand what happened. But I suppose there's always one who needs a little help! :D.


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    #28
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    dirtynosebeps wrote: »
    ripcord you were in the correct lane for taking your exit, taxi driver was in the wrong lane. theres nothing more that can be said. next time it happens just take the plate number and report it to you local garda station. the rules of the road are there for everyone and not just the majority, and that goes for junctions. taxi drivers are not exempt from the rules of the road and that includes going straight in left or right hand turn only lanes unless it's specified. my examples being bachelors walk onto eden quay. it is illegal for any vehicle to proceed straight if in the left land for turning onto o'connell street, same applies for using the left lane in westmareland street for turning left onto aston quay here again it is illegal for any vehicle to proceed straight whilest in the left lane. the good point about your thread is it shows the amount of people who dont know the rules of the road.


    Have to disagree with you, from the information given there is no way to know who was in the correct lane, it is quite possible that they were both in a correct lane, several RABs in North Co Dublin have lane markings that indicate straight on in both lanes, one or two even go into a single lane at the exit of the RAB, so don't jump to conclusions.

    At the moment the only thing the post quantifies is that the taxi driver over reacted to a blast on the horn


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    #29
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    ripcord wrote: »
    This is brilliant!!



    That is the most rediculous piece of logic I've ever heard! You're assuming because of lack of evidence you can't say I was right - yet you CAN say both of us were wrong??? :pac::pac::pac:

    Maybe I'll put up the location. Or maybe a fake location!!!! How would your judgemental stance fare then? At what point do you believe me?? ;)

    I've given a good enough description for most people to understand what happened. But I suppose there's always one who needs a little help! :D.


    So you must have some doubt then if you're not prepared to back up your arguments with some proof, wouild be the way I'd interpret that.

    Post the location and we can all googlemap it and see where you mean


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    #30
    ripcord
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ripcord


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    So you must have some doubt then if you're not prepared to back up your arguments with some proof, wouild be the way I'd interpret that.

    Post the location and we can all googlemap it and see where you mean

    Seriously Spook, what's up with you?? :confused: And what arguments are you talking about??? :confused: I gave an accurate description in my first post. Everyone understood it and have accepted I was in the correct lane (which wasn't even the main purpose of my post).

    I did forget to mention that there are no road markings at the roadabout to indicate lane direction. Does this help you?

    If I post the location, how do you know I'm not just picking one to suit my needs? Are you a disgruntled taxi driver who is sick of all the bad rep they get? Hence looking for absolute proof of the incident? Would video evidence just cover it???? :)

    Figure it out and move on - everyone else has! :)


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    #31
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    ripcord wrote: »
    Seriously Spook, what's up with you?? :confused: I've given a good enough description in my first post. Everyone understood it and have accepted I was in the correct lane (which wasn't even the main purpose of my post).

    I did forget to mention that there are no road markings at the roadabout to indicate lane direction. Does this help you?

    If I post the location, how do you know I'm not just picking one to suit my needs? Are you a disgruntled taxi driver who is sick of all the bad rep they get? Hence looking for absolute proof of the incident? Would video evidence just cover it???? :)

    Figure it out and move on - everyone else has! :)

    I see no reason to accept your version above that of someone who hasn't posted, if you are so sure then post the location :)

    If you have video evidence then even better, it would probably serve as corroberative evidence that in most cases would be acceptable to a Gard to act upon :)


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