IMF over here today reviewing our public service.

doncarlos · 14-04-2011 04:35PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

even with price difference civil servants in Ireland get paid roughly 40% more than the European equivalent

I get paid €28,000 if this is 40% more than my European equivalent and was reduced to their levels I would be on 20k. Would earn far more in the private sector. Reducing wages en masse will do nothing but cause a brain drain in the public sector where all the young educated people will leave and all that will be left is the older institutionalised staff that wouldn't get a job anywhere else.
I seriously can't see how this is a solution.

Calhoun · 14-04-2011 04:38PM

doncarlos wrote: »

I get paid €28,000 if this is 40% more than my European equivalent and was reduced to their levels I would be on 20k. Would earn far more in the private sector. Reducing wages en masse will do nothing but cause a brain drain in the public sector where all the young educated people will leave and all that will be left is the older institutionalised staff that wouldn't get a job anywhere else.
I seriously can't see how this is a solution.

Exactly it might not be the solution, it could be a combination of wage and headcount cuts.

dj jarvis · 14-04-2011 04:50PM

bryaner wrote: »

k_mac was trying to point out to you (albeit hard) what people in other countries get in return for paying their taxes, I quoted his post asking do the Finnish not pump their tax into dud banks.

My point being taxpayers money in this country is getting thrown away into defunct banks and not being used for infrastructure, health, public transport and amenities etc etc like they are in real countries.

ok so we pay more taxes for a better service ? great stuff
still is not going to change the fact that the civil service is bloated , full of waste and over paid ( not just me saying this its also the good people in our own government , the EU, the EU commission , the imf but im sure your view must be the correct one :eek:

now for the bank debt / sovereign debt difference for you bryaner ( as simple as i can put it for ya - last time so pay attention )

lets pretend the banks are ok and they have not blown nearly 80 billion , so far so good ?
our last government ramped up public spending almost 20 billion more each year than we are bringing in - ok so we now need 2 cut back this amount to balance the running of the country ( sovereign debt )
so the last 3 budgets tried to address this by taking 3 / 4 / and now six billion from spending , still with me ?
we still need to cut - so the FIRST thing the EU / IMF are going to cut is the wage bill and staff numbers - if we dont do it they will , this is 2 bring the sovereign debt down to balance the books

they are giving us assistance with this so do have a say in how and when it is done
the banking debt is separate and is being delt with separately
just look at the cash that has been put aside for Ireland , some is ear marked for the running of the country - some to bail out the banks
never the twain shall meet - yes as a country we still owe the one combined debt but they break down into 2 totally different entity's

greece and portugals major issue is sovereign debt , ours is a combination of banks and sovereign and is being dealt with as such , 2 DIFFERENT ISSUES

they will not be cutting civil service jobs or conditions because of banking debt - its because we cant afford to pay our way 2 run the country

so no i was not in a coma as you so eloquently put it , i just understand the situation

arybvtcw0eolkf · 14-04-2011 04:57PM

40% pay cut - cool, finally the push I need to retire.

Then get job seekers allowance - it would be probably over €100 more than I'd be getting paid after a 40% cut.

Would I have my mortage payments met by the social too?.

Medical card - woo hoo.

Over all I'd probably be up on what I'm earning presently.

Fook it, I'd be on the pigs back.

Then when the country is back on its feet I'll re-train, get myself a trade and refuse to get out of bed for less than a grand a day.. Maybe consider going back to college and sniggering at the idiots working in the low paid public service - mock my mates "Hey Mick, your bleed'n mad staying in the army - sure I'm getting two grand a week as a brickies labourer".... and the wheel turns.

To my mates who slagged me for sticking the army out through the boom years, rubbing my nose in your poxy money I say - up your bollox ya begruding little cunts.

Either way, I'm on the pigs back and riding it to hell and back.

dj jarvis · 14-04-2011 04:59PM

doncarlos wrote: »

I get paid €28,000 if this is 40% more than my European equivalent and was reduced to their levels I would be on 20k. Would earn far more in the private sector. Reducing wages en masse will do nothing but cause a brain drain in the public sector where all the young educated people will leave and all that will be left is the older institutionalised staff that wouldn't get a job anywhere else.
I seriously can't see how this is a solution.

yea but everybody is assuming that they are going for low paid and low level workers - i would imagine with labour running part of this they will be uber careful on who it targets , the IMF dont care how its done once it is so the
cull will be done by ourselves , not by outsiders , this may give lower paid workers a chance

Degsy · 14-04-2011 05:03PM

Where's Bono when we need his divine guidance?

Oh yeah and we need to double corporation tax.

Orando Broom · 14-04-2011 05:05PM

Seemingly the IMF is hugely impressed with the Public Service and is recommending an immediate reversal of all cuts, reinstatement of benchmarking and public pay levels to be brought back up to 2007/8 levels!!!!!

That is utter madness! That is the craziest thing I've ever heard.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 14-04-2011 05:06PM

Degsy wrote: »

Where's Bono when we need his divine guidance?

Oh yeah and we need to double corporation tax.

Just finished up his 360 tour in Brazil.. It was reported that this tour alone has grossed over €750 million!.

doncarlos · 14-04-2011 05:08PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

yea but everybody is assuming that they are going for low paid and low level workers - i would imagine with labour running part of this they will be uber careful on who it targets , the IMF dont care how its done once it is so the
cull will be done by ourselves , not by outsiders , this may give lower paid workers a chance

But that's the thing normal Joe private sector doesn't distinguish between low paid and low level workers and high level and overpaid workers. Because there are quotes that the public sector are paid 40% more on average, then EVERYBODY in the public sector earns 40% more than they do in Europe.

Voluntary redundancies, early retirment, paid career breaks (10k p.a. for two/three years), redeployment and pooling resources all need to be looked at before redundancies and wage cuts are.

DoesNotCompute · 14-04-2011 05:08PM

mick kk wrote: »

i will gladly take a pay cut of 40% - no problem....as long as my ever increasing mortgage repayments, creche fee [another mortgage of sorts], petrol for my car, health inurance, doctors fees [60 euro this week and 60 two weeks ago] etc. are also cut by 40%...I know..prices are falling but none of these things are falling in price.....I love the way our wages are compared with those of our neighbours...yet the taxes paid by those in the countries we are compared with are often lower, healthcare costs are usually lower [e.g NHS in UK means that health insurance is not essential]...When comparing with other countries these things must be taken into account..otherwise you simply cannot compare.

Here, here. Excellent point.

Blobby George · 14-04-2011 05:09PM

Bryan Mammoth Usher wrote: »

Either way, I'm on the pigs back and riding it to hell and back.

This sentence sums up the attitudes of the public sector. I hope someone calls time on this gravy train rapido.

Orando Broom · 14-04-2011 05:11PM

Blobby George wrote: »

This sentence sums up the attitudes of the public sector. I hope someone calls time on this gravy train rapido.

Yep, because this country badly needs 20,000 less taxpayers and 20,000 more people on the dole! The answer to the problem is that we all go to hell together!

doncarlos · 14-04-2011 05:12PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

reinstatement of benchmarking

Benchmarking really should be brought back in but it should be done on a job by job basis rather than a grade. There are guys on higher grades than me not doing a tap and as you can imagine is very frustrating.

There was one guy I shared an office with and he was on 50k a year and I'm not exaggerating when I say this he did about one hours work a month. The guy was an absolute buffoon and people stopped giving him work to do as he used to always mess it up.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 14-04-2011 05:13PM

Blobby George wrote: »

This sentence sums up the attitudes of the public sector. I hope someone calls time on this gravy train rapido.

You know what Blobby - since they took away my 'give a fuck money - I don't give a fuck!.

Spudmonkey · 14-04-2011 05:17PM

Degsy wrote: »

Where's Bono when we need his divine guidance?

Oh yeah and we need to double corporation tax.

OWH.... MY FOOT.....

mcmoustache · 14-04-2011 05:22PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Yep, because this country badly needs 20,000 less taxpayers and 20,000 more people on the dole! The answer to the problem is that we all go to hell together!

The money used to pay the public service comes from taxpayers. It's a bit like me giving you €80 and saying I gave you €100 and you pay me a tax of €20.
In fact, you could say that the PS steal tax.

Personally, I would rather pay a PS worker who has no function (and there are many - it's inevitable in a job for life) the dole than an industrial wage.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of productive public servants but they together with SIPTU insist on seeing the useless ones treated the same as the productive ones.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 14-04-2011 05:26PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

In fact, you could say that the PS steal tax.

I'm a public servant and I'm no God damned thief pal.

ixoy · 14-04-2011 05:26PM

Probably no point in asking in AH ... but are wages 40% higher in all sectors than our European counterparts? Certainly doesn't seem to be a 40% premium in IT roles that I've examined.

dj jarvis · 14-04-2011 05:28PM

doncarlos wrote: »

But that's the thing normal Joe private sector doesn't distinguish between low paid and low level workers and high level and overpaid workers. Because there are quotes that the public sector are paid 40% more on average, then EVERYBODY in the public sector earns 40% more than they do in Europe.

Voluntary redundancies, early retirment, paid career breaks (10k p.a. for two/three years), redeployment and pooling resources all need to be looked at before redundancies and wage cuts are.

not really true , i know plenty of public servants that are paid **** all
but i also SEE the mental waste that is also in the system ,
we can only hope they are realistic with the people they target

but one thing is for sure 30,000 will go if not by natural wastage and vol redundancies then by compulsory ones

a point that i have seen posted is knowing about wasters in the service ,
if i knew someone was screwing the dole i would shop them in a heart beat ( i have seen where the money is needed in the hospitals ), so if civil servants know of complete idiots and wasters then why not point this out ??? same animal is it not ? who is worse the bloke scamming lone parents of some clown in the dept who cant wipe his hole and gets a pension for his troubles - THESE are the people i want out , we can only pray its the wasters that get sacked but i wont hold my breath because this is Ireland after all

Orando Broom · 14-04-2011 05:35PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

The money used to pay the public service comes from taxpayers. It's a bit like me giving you €80 and saying I gave you €100 and you pay me a tax of €20.
In fact, you could say that the PS steal tax.

Personally, I would rather pay a PS worker who has no function (and there are many - it's inevitable in a job for life) the dole than an industrial wage.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of productive public servants but they together with SIPTU insist on seeing the useless ones treated the same as the productive ones.

and PS workers are taxpayers too...

You forget you don't just pay the dole, you pay mortgage relief, and a raft of other add ons. But you're probably right, smash the public service, create a nation of dole reliant citizens. At least you'll be happy. I'd personally like to see a public service reformed but done sustainably, with no loss of the genuinely smart people, because when the draconian scorched earth policies start to be implemented they are the ones with the wit to leave. When you have a motor tax office equivalent to the DMV in the US then you'll beg on your knees for the old PS. Mark my words the cutting starts the brains will leave, you'll be left with the union jobsworth and the moribund deadbeats who are too fatigued by the vagaries of life to leave the comfort of their job. It's not the way, it's really not, but you can't tell a pitchfork wielding mob that the basketball player with the scar on his forehead is not Frankenstein.

dj jarvis · 14-04-2011 05:36PM

ixoy wrote: »

Probably no point in asking in AH ... but are wages 40% higher in all sectors than our European counterparts? Certainly doesn't seem to be a 40% premium in IT roles that I've examined.

no , the 40% they talk of is in education , health , administrators ect ect
in state employment

as i said in my first post a ambulance driver in Ireland gets paid the same as a jr hospital consultant in finland , make of that as you will

as one presenter on newstalk said today how come manchester in the uk can be run for a fraction of the money it takes to run ireland yet its the same amount of people , now im not comparing like with like but its really something 2 think about

our civil service has NOT been updated since the foundation of the state
the brits left us this dinosaur , that is based on military structures from the early 1800's ( that is why some job titles are called officer 2 this day )
newzeland was left with the same but a decade ago started to get rid of it and hey presto they now have the MOST efficient civil service in the WORLD , maybe time it we started from scratch ourselves

mcmoustache · 14-04-2011 05:39PM

Bryan Mammoth Usher wrote: »

I'm a public servant and I'm no God damned thief pal.

That is true. That should really have been:

"You could say that the PS acquire tax."

And I'm not your pal, buddy.

For what it's worth, I'm not in favour of cuts to the military. It's not large and any self-respecting country needs a standing army. A member of my own family (MP sargeant, First Batallion in Renmore) is being financially encouraged to leave this year because of changes to the pension. There's also a lot of other bolloxology going on down there but that's for another thread.

pragmatic1 · 14-04-2011 05:47PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Yep, because this country badly needs 20,000 less taxpayers and 20,000 more people on the dole! The answer to the problem is that we all go to hell together!

That would cost the state a lot less. Not saying its right or wrong, its just a fact.

AskMyChocolate · 14-04-2011 05:49PM

mick kk wrote: »

i will gladly take a pay cut of 40% - no problem....as long as my ever increasing mortgage repayments, creche fee [another mortgage of sorts], petrol for my car, health inurance, doctors fees [60 euro this week and 60 two weeks ago] etc. are also cut by 40%...I know..prices are falling but none of these things are falling in price.....I love the way our wages are compared with those of our neighbours...yet the taxes paid by those in the countries we are compared with are often lower, healthcare costs are usually lower [e.g NHS in UK means that health insurance is not essential]...When comparing with other countries these things must be taken into account..otherwise you simply cannot compare.

Good post chief. I thought it was extraordinary the other day when Wolfe Tone thanked a KeithAFC post, but I find myself thanking your post along with MickyDoomSux.:eek: Maybe we're all going soft. I am a SW recipient but I believe it needs to be cut. I just don't want it being cut in order to siphon the money into Dermot Desmond's pocket. I don't want this country asset-stripped to provide for the loansharks in the Sandy Lane Beach hotel. Basically, I'm perfectly prepared to bite the bullet, if it means the next generation are free to walk in our woods, benefit from our natural resources, and not be enslaved for our me-feiner attitudes. I'll live off the skin of a rasher if it is to protect our children and our sovereignty. But, if these sacrifices are being made to further enrich the scumbags who brought us to this pass, because they are bigger than us, and we're scared of them; then I have a problem.

We should grow a pair of balls, cut our outgoings to the bone, rescind passports from all tax "exiles" (who spend half their time here) and their heirs, threaten to refuse all shipping and fishing rights in our waters, impose 90% taxes on all natural resources and start taking the battle to them. The "markets" are the same investment managers who own Shell.
We should threaten to only exempt oil companies who work in the interests of the people i.e Statoil (and borrow the money, if it's needed from Norway). If push comes to shove, we should offer to lease our ports, as military bases, to the best bidder.

Both America and China will give us the money just to shut up.

Private Capital is more powerful than governments, but people still vote. We have a large Diaspora and neither rich Americans nor rich Chinese need the headache.

What we don't need is a forelock-tugging, weak little gimp like Kenny going into the negotiations, when any half-decent poker player knows that he only has a pair of twos.

Michael Collins only had a pair of twos but he still managed to split the pot, by convincing Churchill that he had a better flush than him.

Just my 2c and very much just my opinion.

mcmoustache · 14-04-2011 05:51PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

and PS workers are taxpayers too...

You forget you don't just pay the dole, you pay mortgage relief, and a raft of other add ons. But you're probably right, smash the public service, create a nation of dole reliant citizens. At least you'll be happy. I'd personally like to see a public service reformed but done sustainably, with no loss of the genuinely smart people, because when the draconian scorched earth policies start to be implemented they are the ones with the wit to leave. When you have a motor tax office equivalent to the DMV in the US then you'll beg on your knees for the old PS. Mark my words the cutting starts the brains will leave, you'll be left with the union jobsworth and the moribund deadbeats who are too fatigued by the vagaries of life to leave the comfort of their job. It's not the way, it's really not, but you can't tell a pitchfork wielding mob that the basketball player with the scar on his forehead is not Frankenstein.

I agree. The thing is, the IMF doesn't care how it's done as long as it's done. The ideal solution for this in my mind would be to let the useless wasters go and even reward the good workers. That's how it works in the private sector.

Unfortunately, that won't happen. SIPTU and the rest of the public service insist on rewarding people not based on quality but based on time in the system. The result is what we have today.

Now, we can no longer afford that. It would be great if we could but we can't. We can't keep borrowing just to subsidize a significant minority of lazy, useless jobsworths.

The IMF doesn't care. The public sector could reform and sort itself out but it didn't. And now, neither they nor the government are calling the shots.

Feeona · 14-04-2011 06:16PM

Bryan Mammoth Usher wrote: »

mock my mates "Hey Mick, your bleed'n mad staying in the army - sure I'm getting two grand a week as a brickies labourer".... and the wheel turns.

Either way, I'm on the pigs back and riding it to hell and back.

Blobby George wrote: »

This sentence sums up the attitudes of the public sector. I hope someone calls time on this gravy train rapido.

And the sentence highlighted in bold sums up the attitude of the private sector during the boom years.

The difference between public and private is that public wages are on display for everyone to see, and unfortunately everyone's an 'expert' on public wages (see it in the newspaper, and on tv everyday, hear it on the radio, people chatting on the bus). I can't imagine anyone here being happy if a customer of your company came in and demanded that your wages be cut due to your inefficiency (surfing the net, coffee and fag breaks, chatting with colleagues). You'd probably say to them 'I'm entitled to my breaks and anyway you haven't a clue what my job involves'. I know when I worked in a well known American bank, I would've told said customer to eff off in a polite manner.

The bitterness permeating the media (and people's conversations) is really palpable, and it seems like people are just baying for blood now even after huge cutbacks. But then most people won't know what the cutbacks mean until their children start school, or there's a fire/theft, or a loved one is ill

bryaner · 14-04-2011 06:30PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

ok so we pay more taxes for a better service ? great stuff
still is not going to change the fact that the civil service is bloated , full of waste and over paid ( not just me saying this its also the good people in our own government , the EU, the EU commission , the imf but im sure your view must be the correct one :eek:

now for the bank debt / sovereign debt difference for you bryaner ( as simple as i can put it for ya - last time so pay attention )

lets pretend the banks are ok and they have not blown nearly 80 billion , so far so good ?
our last government ramped up public spending almost 20 billion more each year than we are bringing in - ok so we now need 2 cut back this amount to balance the running of the country ( sovereign debt )
so the last 3 budgets tried to address this by taking 3 / 4 / and now six billion from spending , still with me ?
we still need to cut - so the FIRST thing the EU / IMF are going to cut is the wage bill and staff numbers - if we dont do it they will , this is 2 bring the sovereign debt down to balance the books

they are giving us assistance with this so do have a say in how and when it is done
the banking debt is separate and is being delt with separately
just look at the cash that has been put aside for Ireland , some is ear marked for the running of the country - some to bail out the banks
never the twain shall meet - yes as a country we still owe the one combined debt but they break down into 2 totally different entity's

greece and portugals major issue is sovereign debt , ours is a combination of banks and sovereign and is being dealt with as such , 2 DIFFERENT ISSUES

they will not be cutting civil service jobs or conditions because of banking debt - its because we cant afford to pay our way 2 run the country

so no i was not in a coma as you so eloquently put it , i just understand the situation

I never said the PS didn't need reform, and the money is all in the one pot now dress it up whatever way you want it's national debt end of.

swordofislam · 14-04-2011 06:32PM

k_mac wrote: »

I'd be better off resigning, declaring bankruptcy and living on the welfare train.

make sure you go bankrupt in england

ilovesleep · 14-04-2011 07:14PM

OT, I wonder what are the hours of an average working week in other europeans countries compared to Ireland?

squod · 14-04-2011 07:47PM

ilovesleep wrote: »

OT, I wonder what are the hours of an average working week in other europeans countries compared to Ireland?

I think its 33.3 days hours per week. All of this could have been avoided if the government took my advice years ago and did away with Tuesday. With the money we would have saved we coulda bought ourselves solid gold shoes. With the greenhouse effect reduced we could all be driving muscle cars. With out Tuesday we would be living in the future compared to Europe and other regions still using the seven day calendar.

IMF over here today reviewing our public service.

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