The Shell to Sea protests

wild_cat · 08-04-2011 12:18AM

dlofnep wrote: »

Interesting how it's always the character of the protesters that's attacked, rather than the essence of their debate - the mass sell-off of our resources.

I think its the Irish "why would you be raising trouble" mentality.

Zebra3 · 08-04-2011 12:19AM

professore wrote: »

Of all the things to protest about in this country, the shell pipeline must be 1 millionth on the list. And to think my taxes are paying for there losers.

Yeah, giving away our wealth for nothing is so far down the list. :rolleyes:

martic · 08-04-2011 12:22AM

CommuterIE wrote: »

To me, the whole protest has been blown out of proportion...

A lot of the protesters have very little education... we seen one woman on RTE news claiming she'd be scared if her cousin crossed the road, fearing the pipe under it would explode!

The Shell pipeline will be built, no matter what these local protesters say... they've certainly been pissing off the Gradai for the last number of years... THE PIPE WILL BE BUILT, get over it and go back to doing whatever you do :mad:

CommuterIE just out of curiosity can I be so bold as to ask what is your knowledge on the whole corrib pipe line/shell2sea protest that is going on in mayo,you're opinions seen very strong and well researched and I'm just curious on what information are you basing your opinions on as I wouldn't mind getting a read of the material

professore · 08-04-2011 12:27AM

What about the 70 billion gone into the banks. That's real wealth. At least we get 25% of the gas. I have a lot more respect for the cement mixer guy.

Humans eh! · 08-04-2011 12:33AM

Money, exchequer, revenue.....
is that it ??????
Is that all that matters ???
The relentless worship of money and revenue is what has us in the current financial mess we have been thrown into.
C'mon, whoever bandies around the 'much needed revenue' argument ..show us the figures and the sources please.
Any so called revenue that will come in will be handed over to pay for the monumental f**k ups that The Bertie Corporation caused in the first place.
In a world of dwindling resources we are so quick to hand over a vital resource that could enrich the lives of the beleaguered Irish in decades to come and not just patch a hole for the mistakes of the few.

Royal Dutch Shell Doesn't give a damn about the environment or anybody who gets in their way as their history in Africa proves. And as for needing their expertise, look where expertise has gotten us thus far.

This protest has become about more than a pipe and a few disgruntled locals, it is about how business and politics use the power of the state and its police to trample on the very people whom they serve. The Gardai are just doing what they are paid to do but it is fundamentally wrong and history will show it as a dark precedent of where this nation is heading.
As for peaceful protest.
Not worth a flying f**k.

squod · 08-04-2011 12:34AM

professore wrote: »

What about the 70 billion gone into the banks. That's real wealth. At least we get 25% of the gas. I have a lot more respect for the cement mixer guy.

Cement mixer guy owes you millions.

General General · 08-04-2011 12:37AM

There were a fair few, I suppose, who thought the War of Independence would end with complete victory for the British.

I'm guessing that the pipeline will be a target for whoever the bad guys are in the future.. &, going on precedent, if it is blown up, the government's/corporation's line will be that the tax-payer will foot the bill for the damage.

Seriously, who do these crusties think they are? Protesting. They'll fail, just like that Gandhi bool-locks & those nutjobs over in Iran in the 70s...

squod · 08-04-2011 12:37AM

Humans eh! wrote: »

Money, exchequer, revenue.....
is that it ??????
Is that all that matters ???
The relentless worship of money and revenue is what has us in the current financial mess we have been thrown into.
C'mon, whoever bandies around the 'much needed revenue' argument ..show us the figures and the sources please.
Any so called revenue that will come in will be handed over to pay for the monumental f**k ups that The Bertie Corporation caused in the first place.
In a world of dwindling resources we are so quick to hand over a vital resource that could enrich the lives of the beleaguered Irish in decades to come and not just patch a hole for the mistakes of the few.

Royal Dutch Shell Doesn't give a damn about the environment or anybody who gets in their way as their history in Africa proves. And as for needing their expertise, look where expertise has gotten us thus far.

This protest has become about more than a pipe and a few disgruntled locals, it is about how business and politics use the power of the state and its police to trample on the very people whom they serve. The Gardai are just doing what they are paid to do but it is fundamentally wrong and history will show it as a dark precedent of where this nation is heading.
As for peaceful protest.
Not worth a flying f**k.

''The merger of state and corporate powers is called fascism.'' Gerald Celente

Birdnuts · 08-04-2011 12:41AM

CommuterIE wrote: »

To me, the whole protest has been blown out of proportion...

A lot of the protesters have very little education... we seen one woman on RTE news claiming she'd be scared if her cousin crossed the road, fearing the pipe under it would explode!

The Shell pipeline will be built, no matter what these local protesters say... they've certainly been pissing off the Gradai for the last number of years... THE PIPE WILL BE BUILT, get over it and go back to doing whatever you do :mad:

Is that the message from Head Office:rolleyes:

Birdnuts · 08-04-2011 12:44AM

professore wrote: »

Of all the things to protest about in this country, the shell pipeline must be 1 millionth on the list. And to think my taxes are paying for these losers.

A tax-payer who supports the Corrib Gas giveaway - alot of logic there

Humans eh! · 08-04-2011 12:47AM

squod wrote: »

''The merger of state and corporate powers is called fascism.'' Gerald Celente

Indeed.

Birdnuts · 08-04-2011 12:51AM

THe SHELL groupies on this Forum only have empty soundbytes and pathetic cliches to support their views - facts relating to how SHELL got their hands on our GAS and the rather sorry saga relating to the circumstances in which BNP over-turned the recommendations of their Senior planner Kevin Moore to allow the refinery to go ahead in an obviously unsuiteable location are ignored since they don't suit the PR spinn and guff

PS: The same Kevin Moore gave 16 reasons as to why this project should not go ahead at its current location. People are welcome to research these facts theselves:)

Zebra3 · 08-04-2011 01:08AM

squod wrote: »

Cement mixer guy owes you millions.

Even though the taxpayer never lent him any money..... :rolleyes:

My name is URL · 08-04-2011 01:29AM

I have no real desire to learn about the ins and outs of the whole thing, but I'd be lying if I said that I don't feel pissed off to see the place reduced to such nonsense from people on both sides of the fence.

Einhard · 08-04-2011 02:33AM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

What should happen is the pipe being built and the oil wealth be used to fix our deficit and fund social services. This would involve a nationalised oil company and telling shell where to go.

And once we tell Shell to fook off, who is going to stump up to explore other areas of the Irish seabed which may have hydrocarbon potential? We don't have significant reserves of oil or gas, and nothing thusfar indicates that we ever will have significant quantities in readily accessible locations. Considering the process surrounding a single test bore costs tens of millions, who is going to stump up for such tests? And before you answer with Norway etc, the Norwegians have an abundance of readily exploitable hydrocarbon reserves. The quantity makes it cost-effective for them to establish their own national energy company, and mitigates the costs involved in exploration and expoitation. We don't have that luxury in Ireland. I'd like to get as much as possible for our resources, but we have to be realistic when it comes to it. Telling Shell where to shove it will essentially bring exploration to a halt in ireland for the foreseeable future. Not to mention the massive damage such uniliateral breaching of contract law would cause. If you were the head of a multi-national, looking to expand or invest, would you do so in a nation which has a history of reneging on its contracts? I doubt it.

Crosáidí wrote: »

Ah yes, Royal Dutch Shell, i'm sure they have the Irish/Mayo people's best interests at heart

Ah yes, Dunne's Stores/enter any private enterprise here, i'm sure they have the Irish people's best interests at heart

Not sure what that comment has to do with anythign really, except stoke some inane populist sentiment and get a few thanks. What private enterprise has the common good at heart? If that were the criteria for private companies, we'd be picketing Intel and Dell.

dlofnep wrote: »

Interesting how it's always the character of the protesters that's attacked, rather than the essence of their debate - the mass sell-off of our resources.

I think that, in some cases, the character of the protestors is a legitimate basis of discussion. From what I've seen, a significant number of the protestors are motivated, not merely by local concerns or issues, but by ideoplogical and political considerations. It's reasonable then, to discuss such deeper motivations. Anyway, as I'm sure you're aware, there is no compunction amongst the protestors about attacking the character of Shell, the guards, and those employed around the project, so they can hardly claim special treatment.

Birdnuts · 08-04-2011 02:41AM

Einhard wrote: »

And once we tell Shell to fook off, who is going to stump up to explore other areas of the Irish seabed which may have hydrocarbon potential? We don't have significant reserves of oil or gas, and nothing thusfar indicates that we ever will have significant quantities in readily accessible locations. Considering the process surrounding a single test bore costs tens of millions, who is going to stump up for such tests? And before you answer with Norway etc, the Norwegians have an abundance of readily exploitable hydrocarbon reserves. The quantity makes it cost-effective for them to establish their own national energy company, and mitigates the costs involved in exploration and expoitation. We don't have that luxury in Ireland. I'd like to get as much as possible for our resources, but we have to be realistic when it comes to it. Telling Shell where to shove it will essentially bring exploration to a halt in ireland for the foreseeable future. Not to mention the massive damage such uniliateral breaching of contract law would cause. If you were the head of a multi-national, looking to expand or invest, would you do so in a nation which has a history of reneging on its contracts? I doubt it.

Ah yes, Dunne's Stores/enter any private enterprise here, i'm sure they have the Irish people's best interests at heart

Not sure what that comment has to do with anythign really, except stoke some inane populist sentiment and get a few thanks. What private enterprise has the common good at heart? If that were the criteria for private companies, we'd be picketing Intel and Dell.

I think that, in some cases, the character of the protestors is a legitimate basis of discussion. From what I've seen, a significant number of the protestors are motivated, not merely by local concerns or issues, but by ideoplogical and political considerations. It's reasonable then, to discuss such deeper motivations. Anyway, as I'm sure you're aware, there is no compunction amongst the protestors about attacking the character of Shell, the guards, and those employed around the project, so they can hardly claim special treatment.

We get so little from the deal that it doesn't matter if the gas stays out there or not - in fact its probably better that it stays out there since its value can only go up given projected worldwide energy demand, at which point we can do a "Norway" on it.

This deal has about as much merits as bailing out Anglo et al - Indeed for a fraction of the money we wasted on the banks, we could have set up our own oil/gas exploiration company:(

The current deal achieves nothing but increasing a foreign oil companies already massive profits:(

PS: Theres another thread active for those who don't like protestors who upset big business interests!!;)

Pride Fighter · 08-04-2011 02:42AM

Einhard wrote: »

And once we tell Shell to fook off, who is going to stump up to explore other areas of the Irish seabed which may have hydrocarbon potential? We don't have significant reserves of oil or gas, and nothing thusfar indicates that we ever will have significant quantities in readily accessible locations. Considering the process surrounding a single test bore costs tens of millions, who is going to stump up for such tests? And before you answer with Norway etc, the Norwegians have an abundance of readily exploitable hydrocarbon reserves. The quantity makes it cost-effective for them to establish their own national energy company, and mitigates the costs involved in exploration and expoitation. We don't have that luxury in Ireland. I'd like to get as much as possible for our resources, but we have to be realistic when it comes to it. Telling Shell where to shove it will essentially bring exploration to a halt in ireland for the foreseeable future. Not to mention the massive damage such uniliateral breaching of contract law would cause. If you were the head of a multi-national, looking to expand or invest, would you do so in a nation which has a history of reneging on its contracts? I doubt it.

There is 550 billion of gas in Corrib. I know that set up costs would cost billions, maybe up to 10, but you'll still make a hell of a lot of money.Companies would still do business with us if we nationalised the gas. Look at Egypt after Nasser nationalised the Suez canal, modern day Venezuela. Companies will not leave Ireland if we did this. We nationalised all the banks and they did not leave, why not nationalise something that will make money?

Einhard · 08-04-2011 03:03AM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is 550 billion of gas in Corrib. I know that set up costs would cost billions, maybe up to 10, but you'll still make a hell of a lot of money.Companies would still do business with us if we nationalised the gas. Look at Egypt after Nasser nationalised the Suez canal, modern day Venezuela. Companies will not leave Ireland if we did this. We nationalised all the banks and they did not leave, why not nationalise something that will make money?

Where are you getting this valuation from? I've searched and have found nothing that even approximates that figure.

As for Egypt and Venezuela, the situations are entirely different. One can't just point at another country and say, see, they did, we can too! You mention Egypt, yet if anything, the recent revolts have highlighted how little private industry is located in Egypt. Multi-national investment of the type on which Ireland depends, is practically non-existent in the country. In Venezuela, the same is true, though to a lesser extent. On top of that, both countries have resources which they can deploy to mitigate hostile reactions to their actions- Suez, and massive hydrocarbon reserves. Both are hugely valuable to the international community and business, and so both nations can get away with actions which other nations, with no such significant resources would be would be ostracised for. Ireland has no such resources to wield against the world, and so has no such bargaining chips.

Anyway, you didn't answer my question- if you were the head of a multi-national, looking to invest money, would you do so in a country which unilaterally breaches its contracts? Which unilaterally tears up and ignores its own laws when it feels like it? I certainly wouldn't.

EDIT: According to the Irish TImes, the Corrib gas field has a value of between €9-13 billion. I presume they're a pretty unbiased source. Where on earth are you getting the half trillion valuation from?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0307/1224291485774.html

MORE EDIT: The more one thinks of that figure you provided, the more one is struck by how patently absurd it is. All the oil and gas in Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar and Kuwait was valued in 2009 at $18 trillion. That's every single quantifiable gas and oil field in all 6 nations, traditionally amongst the largest hydrocarbon exporting nations in the world. And you'd have us believe that, in one small gas field, off the coast of Mayo, the reserves are equal in value to approx. 2.5% of the entire hydrocarbon production of those six countries?? Are you serious? Factor in that Kinsale is larger again than Corrib, and, going by your figures, in just two gas fields, Ireland has energy reserves equal to at least 5% of all the reserves of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar and Kuwait. I'm sorry, but that beggars belief.

http://www.ameinfo.com/213565.html

Einhard · 08-04-2011 03:09AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: Theres another thread active for those who don't like protestors who upset big business interests!!;)

I've nothing against the protestors, I just disagree with them. No gra for big business either, but I'm not jumping on some populist bandwagon without seeing a reasoned argument presented. Throwing about figures of half a trillion dollars or euros, when there seems to be no independent supporting evidence for this, is just one example of lack of reasoned argument.

Pauleta · 08-04-2011 03:27AM

Its already been established that we dont have the expertise in the country to extract the fuel at a reasonable price. I think it would be more productive to find out why we dont have the expertise and trying to develop the expertise rather than protesting the inebitable

dlofnep · 08-04-2011 03:15PM

Pauleta wrote: »

Its already been established that we dont have the expertise in the country to extract the fuel at a reasonable price. I think it would be more productive to find out why we dont have the expertise and trying to develop the expertise rather than protesting the inebitable

There is always a point in every nation where they do not have the expertise to accomplish a goal. But, they inevitably accomplish it because it is in their interests to do so. That is no excuse to not pursue it.

I'd much rather we spent these billions investing into nationalising our resources, than pumping into wasteful banks. It's about priorities. Do we want to feed an endless pit, or become a much more independent state?

Ronan|Raven · 08-04-2011 03:56PM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is 550 billion of gas in Corrib. I know that set up costs would cost billions, maybe up to 10, but you'll still make a hell of a lot of money.Companies would still do business with us if we nationalised the gas. Look at Egypt after Nasser nationalised the Suez canal, modern day Venezuela. Companies will not leave Ireland if we did this. We nationalised all the banks and they did not leave, why not nationalise something that will make money?

I heard there was closer to 900 Billion worth.

see this is fun!

Birdnuts · 08-04-2011 04:48PM

Given the frankly astonishing way another thread related to this subject has just ended I don't beleive a reasonable facts based discussion is possible on this subject in this forum:(

PS: Just to clarify for the last poster - the 400-500 billion estimate was from the Dept of Energy, not those supposedly evil people in S2S;)

Killer Pigeon · 08-04-2011 04:52PM

Sorry, I don't support scrounger hippies.

YES TO THE CORRIB GAS PIPELINE!

Ireland needs to do business, the hippies don't realise that the money they get to buy weed doesn't come from nowhere.

passive · 08-04-2011 04:58PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

the 400-500 billion estimate was from the Dept of Energy, not those supposedly evil people in S2S;)

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is 550 billion of gas in Corrib.

These numbers: They are lies.

That is all.

(edit: And if you going talking about potential oil that may exist somewhere in our sea and be drilled for later under the improved tax regime, that is not in any way related to this pipeline, nobody will be amused. Please talk about the actual amount in question regarding the 25% deal with shell in Corrib, the controversial pipeline, the Shell to Sea crowd. Which I think you'll find it 50 times smaller than the figures you guys are spouting)

http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/eycwkfmhau/

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2008/jun/22/value-of-shell-corrib-field-surges-to-13bn/

Birdnuts · 08-04-2011 05:05PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Sorry, I don't support scrounger hippies.

YES TO THE CORRIB GAS PIPELINE!

Ireland needs to do business, the hippies don't realise that the money they get to buy weed doesn't come from nowhere.

The realities of the Corrib gas deal strongly suggests the above does not stand up:(

Birdnuts · 08-04-2011 05:08PM

passive wrote: »

These numbers: They are lies.

That is all.

(edit: And if you going talking about potential oil that may exist somewhere in our sea and be drilled for later under the improved tax regime, that is not in any way related to this pipeline, nobody will be amused. Please talk about the actual amount in question regarding the 25% deal with shell in Corrib, the controversial pipeline, the Shell to Sea crowd. Which I think you'll find it 50 times smaller than the figures you guys are spouting)

http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/eycwkfmhau/

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2008/jun/22/value-of-shell-corrib-field-surges-to-13bn/

Your talking just about the Corrib element - the Dept of Energy figures refer to the potential of other areas around our coast so be carefull throwing around words like "lies":mad:

Bosco boy · 08-04-2011 05:10PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Given the frankly astonishing way another thread related to this subject has just ended I don't beleive a reasonable facts based discussion is possible on this subject in this forum:(

PS: Just to clarify for the last poster - the 400-500 billion estimate was from the Dept of Energy, not those supposedly evil people in S2S;)

Hey! Try posting an arguement on indymedia against shell to sea and see how long it will stay up, everyone gets their say on boards if they have manners!

passive · 08-04-2011 05:10PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Your talking just about the Corrib element - the Dept of Energy figures refer to the potential of other areas around out coast so be carefull throwing around words like "lies":mad:

Yes, I'm talking just about the Corrib element. The thread is just about the Corrib element. The argument is just about the Corrib element and the posts I quoted saying the gas is worth 450,000,000,000,000,000,whatever billion euro were talking just about the Corrib element.

I just noticed the last paragraph of my second link raises questions somewhat, as more gas might potentially be added to that figure within the same tax system. But the dept of energy figures, as far as I understand it, refers to theoretical, thusfar unclaimed and certainly not earmarked and paid for gas. So those figures are entirely irrelevant.

Da Shins Kelly · 08-04-2011 05:11PM

No, just no.

The Shell to Sea protests

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