The Death Agony of Capitalism

Overheal · 07-04-2011 03:42PM

Actually what failed isnt the Capitalism but the Social intervention of government. You start giving $700bn in bank bailouts here, buy a few car companies there, throw a bunch of money back to your constituents for being swell, and what are you left with?

When they took away the risk of Entrepreneurial Failure, thats when it failed. When they blocked the free market competition from eating up the rotting corpses of those banks, thats when it failed.

RichieC · 07-04-2011 03:49PM

Capitalism is an abject failure for most people living under it. it's just the people who thrive are those that buy ink by the barrel.

Monty Burnz · 07-04-2011 03:55PM

RichieC wrote: »

Capitalism is an abject failure for most people living under it. it's just the people who thrive are those that buy ink by the barrel.

I'm sorry, that's total poppycock. Living standards have been rising for hundreds of years under capitalism - for everybody. A poor person from the time of Marx would look at a 'poor' person today and wonder how the hell they managed to never go hungry, never lack a home, and never even have to work.

Biggins · 07-04-2011 04:01PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Lu Tze wrote: »

Well if turbo timmy says it it must be true!

Meh! I'm waiting for The Mail to run it - then I'll know its all true. :pac:

robd · 07-04-2011 04:04PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, that's total poppycock. Living standards have been rising for hundreds of years under capitalism - for everybody. A poor person from the time of Marx would look at a 'poor' person today and wonder how the hell they managed to never go hungry, never lack a home, and never even have to work.

We're rising. It's impossible to argue with the fact that living standards have dropped over the last decade for middle classes (now know as the coping classes) in all Western countries. To be specific, the ratio of income to daily expenditure has dropped hugely. Thanks to pumping so much money into keeping the system going despite two bubble crashes (dot.com and banking crisis). Inflation is rampant but completely under reported.

Orando Broom · 07-04-2011 04:04PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Like Star Trek? Who wants to work every hour God sent you on a spaceship for no money? **** that ****. How do they pay for space porther or moon ass?

Monty Burnz · 07-04-2011 04:10PM

robd wrote: »

We're rising. It's impossible to argue with the fact that living standards have dropped over the last decade for middle classes (now know as the coping classes) in all Western countries. To be specific, the ratio of income to daily expenditure has dropped hugely. Thanks to pumping so much money into keeping the system going despite two bubble crashes (dot.com and banking crisis). Inflation is rampant but completely under reported.

I'm inclined to agree with you in part, but where are you referring to? The US? Perhaps. Ireland? For sure, due to the idiocy of paying more than double what we should have been paying to buy property. But tell the German middle class, or the French, or the Belgians, that they are now poorer than they were in the 90s. They will not understand what you are getting at.

Dermighty · 07-04-2011 04:11PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

Well it worked in Cambodia so it must work here.... Oh wait it resulted in ethnic cleansing and genocide

fontanalis · 07-04-2011 04:36PM

Overheal wrote: »

Actually what failed isnt the Capitalism but the Social intervention of government. You start giving $700bn in bank bailouts here, buy a few car companies there, throw a bunch of money back to your constituents for being swell, and what are you left with?

When they took away the risk of Entrepreneurial Failure, thats when it failed. When they blocked the free market competition from eating up the rotting corpses of those banks, thats when it failed.

Well the intervener in the bail out was as far as I remember a capitalist through and through who was all for the markets, and I didn't see any of the Atlas's handing the money back either.
Personally I think the Western World has become too reliant on financial services (reading the Michael Lewis book The Big Short it seems that had those banks went bust then there would have been a cluster f***, which agains shows the over reliance); especially the dealing in debt.

ScumLord · 07-04-2011 04:42PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

Tell them to give us a call we'll bail them out.

Companero wrote: »

idea than Capitalism for running the world, I would genuinely love to hear it, but I am strongly sceptical that you do.

Vague statements like "The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership" will not cut it either.

If you've got a better idea it's gonna need to be really detailed, really complicated and have all sorts of built in checks and balances to stop it becoming totalitarian. It is the kind of thing that would require centuries or patient study and thought, and would probably require several wings of a library to explain itself properly.

The reason the left has failed so spectacularly since the 1960's has been its refusal to acknowledge the immense complexity of the world, and thus the immense complexity of the system needed to replace Capitalism. It seems to have been though sufficient to say "Capitalism's ****, It'll Collapse on Its Own, and we'll all start automatically being groovy to one another."

If you want to replace Capitalism with something better: Which Im all in favour of, you're going to have to put on a suit, get a degree in economics, law, finance, history and sociology and stay up very, very late and have a good , hard think. Good luck.

Zeitgeist, science based. instant win.

Overheal · 07-04-2011 04:52PM

fontanalis wrote: »

Well the intervener in the bail out was as far as I remember a capitalist through and through who was all for the markets

Apparently he wasn't, if he threw away one of the key principles of enterprise when it mattered: Risk.

Orando Broom · 07-04-2011 04:53PM

Dermighty wrote: »

Well it worked in Cambodia so it must work here.... Oh wait it resulted in ethnic cleansing and genocide

The smiley face pleases Pol Pot and the Khamer Rouge.

RichieC · 07-04-2011 04:58PM

Overheal wrote: »

Apparently he wasn't, if he threw away one of the key principles of enterprise when it mattered: Risk.

It's always been capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich... always. :rolleyes:

smokedeels · 07-04-2011 05:01PM

Capitalism is fine with me if you can opt out of the rat race, when you have to foot the bill for private debts it gets a bit much.

Socialism is to rigid and the government have far too much control over your life, it's not for me.

Overheal · 07-04-2011 05:08PM

RichieC wrote: »

It's always been capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich... always. :rolleyes:

That implies it's not possible for the poor to become rich.

gargleblaster · 07-04-2011 05:10PM

What we have now is actually cronyism, and that certainly doesn't work.

robd · 08-04-2011 09:11AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you in part, but where are you referring to? The US? Perhaps. Ireland? For sure, due to the idiocy of paying more than double what we should have been paying to buy property. But tell the German middle class, or the French, or the Belgians, that they are now poorer than they were in the 90s. They will not understand what you are getting at.

Yeh I agree that it's not such a problem is Germany, France, Belgium. In fact they're probably a good model to hold up as to where the world needs to be moving too (in financial terms). The US, UK, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal are in deep deep trouble though. It's the extreme form of capitalism built on exponential debt increase that's about to collapse.

Germany and France look seriously positioned to take advantage of this collapse too !!!

10 years of low growth but controlled inflation vs pumping growth and ignoring inflation. That's the difference.

Ireland is caught in being tied to Germany/France but trying to be the US.

sheesh · 08-04-2011 09:20AM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

What have you got against cheap clothes,shoes, tea and coffee?

Have you any idea how much a pair of shoes made by an actual european would cost?????

what you are talking about is the poor being dressed in rags

why do you hate the poor?

Chairman Meow · 08-04-2011 09:23AM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Turbo Timmy - The number 1 trusted source for world news :rolleyes:

dont worry son, when you grow up and stop listening to rage against the machine and actually have to work for a living, youll realise how laugable an idea socialism/communism is.

Wibbs · 08-04-2011 09:36AM

Chairman Meow wrote: »

dont worry son, when you grow up and stop listening to rage against the machine and actually have to work for a living, youll realise how laugable an idea socialism/communism is.

Ahh c,mon I don't agree with the OP, but the good oul retort of "you'll grow out of it sonny"? Give me an ever loving break. Sorry that's just lazy. Plus maybe it's just as likely he'll end up "working for a living" and realise how quite empty and stressful being a wage slave for life actually is. All depends on viewpoint.

robd · 08-04-2011 09:40AM

sheesh wrote: »

What have you got against cheap clothes,shoes, tea and coffee?

Have you any idea how much a pair of shoes made by an actual european would cost?????

what you are talking about is the poor being dressed in rags

why do you hate the poor?

There's been various articles about the end of cheap goods from the likes of China. It's not that we don't want them or that people have something against it. It comes to the old inflation problem. The price of Oil, Commodities, and Raw Materials is rocketing. Inflation in China is huge and can old be held down by a hugely undervalued currency for so long. Transport costs have been increasing massively due to oil prices.

For the current system to continue we'd need cheap oil, commodities and raw materials along with another poor country with a massive population who's people we can put to productive means at ultra low cost.

Killer Pigeon · 08-04-2011 09:42AM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

We live in a divided world made up of many competing state, a certain degree of capitalism is needed to create a "credit basin" in such a world. Every country has to trade with each other in order to benefit from eachother resources, which amounts to capitalism. Capitalism has never been irradicated (even in so-called "socialist" republics). The most "realistic" socially progressive idealogy that can work in a world like ours at present is social democracy, which accepts the need for capitalism (a necessary evil) to create wealth and a credit basis to fund social projects, etc.. The only way true socialism (but not radical forms of Marxism) can really work is in a world where every single nation is united under the banner of socialism - eradicating the need to trade with seperate capitalist states. Even the idea of libertarian socialism (something like what you suggest) cannot work in world where every country in the world doesn't accept that same ideology. We must accept that such a dream world will never come about any time soon - the world is too divided in ideas and culture.

karma_ · 08-04-2011 09:43AM

robd wrote: »

There's been various articles about the end of cheap goods from the likes of China. It's not that we don't want them or that people have something against it. It comes to the old inflation problem. The price of Oil, Commodities, and Raw Materials is rocketing. Inflation in China is huge and can old be held down by a hugely undervalued currency for so long. Transport costs have been increasing massively due to oil prices.

For the current system to continue we'd need cheap oil, commodities and raw materials along with another poor country with a massive population who's people we can put to productive means at ultra low cost.

And this also makes continued unrest in the world all the more inevitable.

karma_ · 08-04-2011 09:44AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

We live in a divided world made up of many competing state, a certain degree of capitalism is needed to create a "credit basin" in such a world. Every country has to trade with each other in order to benefit from eachother resources, which amounts to capitalism. Capitalism has never been irradicated (even in so-called "socialist" republics). The most "realistic" socially progressive idealogy that can work in a world like ours at present is social democracy, which accepts the need for capitalism (a necessary evil) to create wealth and a credit basis to fund social projects, etc.. The only way true socialism (but not radical forms of Marxism) can really work is in a world where every single nation is united under the banner of socialism - eradicating the need to trade with seperate capitalist states. Even the idea of libertarian socialism (something like what you suggest) cannot work in world where every country in the world doesn't accept that same ideology.

You know, trade does not equal capitalism. Trading and bartering have been around since humans developed opposable thumbs.

Monty Burnz · 08-04-2011 09:46AM

Here's a rather simplistic assessment:

We're worried about the end of cheap goods from china, because China has dragged itself out of poverty due to capitalism and globalisation.

What happens next? Production/development/growth moves to the next low-wage, underdeveloped (stable?) country/region. They will make our cheap goods for us until they drag themselves out of poverty.

Rinse and repeat.

Down with capitalism. :rolleyes:

karma_ · 08-04-2011 09:51AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Here's a rather simplistic assessment:

We're worried about the end of cheap goods from china, because China has dragged itself out of poverty due to capitalism and globalisation.

What happens next? Production/development/growth moves to the next low-wage, underdeveloped (stable?) country/region. They will make our cheap goods for us until they drag themselves out of poverty.

Rinse and repeat.

Down with capitalism. :rolleyes:

I think it more likely that Ireland will end up making cheap goods for China.

I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords.

sensibleken · 08-04-2011 09:53AM

Why is that to a capitalist socialism is Pol Pot and Stalin
Whereas to a socialist capitalism is all Sean Fitzpatricks and Hitler.

You can be a capitalist without employing child labour and you can be a socilaist without being a member of the socialist workers party

They are not mutually exclusive principles. Socialist governments have worked fine with capitalists to produce states which can have independant enterprise and decent public health, education and transport.

'Pure' socialism tends not to produce enough to keep a state going.
'Pure' capitalism tends to cause massive global meltdowns.

Both bad. but a compromise that allows buisness to function but not take risks so big in endagers the country and the state to supply adequate education, health and public transport and decent rights for workers is not that mad an idea

Killer Pigeon · 08-04-2011 09:54AM

karma_ wrote: »

You know, trade does not equal capitalism. Trading and bartering have been around since humans developed opposable thumbs.

Trade amoungst private companies (etc..) is one element of capitalism and in a sense capitalism really is the oldest (and dare I say, most natural) economic system in the world. In the case of "socialist" republics in a largly capitalist world, if that state decided to trade with another country it would be regard as an aspect of "state capitalism".

DubTony · 08-04-2011 09:57AM

The system we live by today has nothing to do with capitalism. The dictionary definition is

capitalism |ˈkapətlˌizəm|
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Anyone who thinks that the state doesn't have a huge control in business is delusional. Ridiculous legal compliance in most cases benefits nobody except those empowered to enforce; cronyism and the nod and a wink culture ensure that the insiders / elites play by their own rules while ensuring that others can't even get in the game, and bail-outs for big(ger) business and banks adds a cost to every business and household ensuring that the money stops going round and simply sits in accounts of those same elites.

That's the new game in town (well, about 100 years new), and it's the one that most people perceive to be capitalism. I don't know what you'd call it, but it ain't capitalism.

karma_ · 08-04-2011 09:57AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Trade amoungst private companies (etc..) is one element of capitalism and in a since capitalism really is the oldest (and dare I say, most natural) economic system in the world. In the case of "socialist" republics in a largly capitalist world, if that state decided to trade with another country it would be regard as an aspect of "state capitalism".

If your going to make that argument then you would have to admit that socialism has been here even longer.

The Death Agony of Capitalism

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