The Death Agony of Capitalism

hoorsmelt

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Lu Tze

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Well if turbo timmy says it it must be true!

Finnbar01

Hopefully the special interests will get it in the neck.

Adamantium

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

they'll just print more make believe money ftm that doesn't actually exist in gold weight or borrow it from china...thus digging a deeper hole

societies will never adopt a debt free money system...cos that would make too much sense!

Cookie_Monster

the us ran out of money decades ago, they owe 14 trillion...
tomorrow they will owe slightly more that's all...

Sergeant

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

Stalinism? Worked a treat the last time it was tried.

mickydoomsux

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Ugh, more socialist rubbish.

Local production? Sure, i'll get the lad down the road to build me a car and grow me some pineapples.

hoorsmelt

Sergeant wrote: »

Stalinism? Worked a treat the last time it was tried.

:rolleyes: Gob****e. Stalinism was based on centralised planning and coercion. This new system will have to be based on community and local production for local consumption.

hoorsmelt

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Ugh, more socialist rubbish.

Local production? Sure, i'll get the lad down the road to build me a car and grow me some pineapples.

Enjoy what's coming. Food prices are rocketing, as are all other commodities, and we need to be more self sufficient. Globalised capitalism is not a sustainable system, and it's time is limited.

Sergeant

hoorsmelt wrote: »

:rolleyes: Gob****e. Stalinism was based on centralised planning and coercion. This new system will have to be based on community and local production for local consumption.

And if one local community doesn't have a commodity it requires, will it be able to trade with another community? Using money, or would it be some type of bartering system? Can you flesh out your proposals?

Companero

idea than Capitalism for running the world, I would genuinely love to hear it, but I am strongly sceptical that you do.

Vague statements like "The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership" will not cut it either.

If you've got a better idea it's gonna need to be really detailed, really complicated and have all sorts of built in checks and balances to stop it becoming totalitarian. It is the kind of thing that would require centuries or patient study and thought, and would probably require several wings of a library to explain itself properly.

The reason the left has failed so spectacularly since the 1960's has been its refusal to acknowledge the immense complexity of the world, and thus the immense complexity of the system needed to replace Capitalism. It seems to have been though sufficient to say "Capitalism's ****, It'll Collapse on Its Own, and we'll all start automatically being groovy to one another."

If you want to replace Capitalism with something better: Which Im all in favour of, you're going to have to put on a suit, get a degree in economics, law, finance, history and sociology and stay up very, very late and have a good , hard think. Good luck.

mickydoomsux

hoorsmelt wrote: »

:rolleyes: Gob****e. Stalinism was based on centralised planning and coercion. This new system will have to be based on community and local production for local consumption.

Oil. End of that idea.

Also, we have an increasingly export based economy. Guess we should stop all that and only produce what's needed here?

Pauleta

Left wing loons are looney

pragmatic1

Capitalism will eventually run its course but it wont be replaced by communism either.

problemchimp

Pauleta wrote: »

Left wing loons are looney

Oh here we go again!!!!!!!!!

Monty Burnz

hoorsmelt wrote: »

:rolleyes: Gob****e. Stalinism was based on centralised planning and coercion. This new system will have to be based on community and local production for local consumption.

Oh right. So like what used to happen before the invention of international trade? Marvellous.

Of course, capitalism has been on its deathbed for a hundred years at least. I'll start to get worried when people stop announcing it.

Fratton Fred

So when we've all paid off our huge negative equity, we should sell the house, build a hut in the middle of a small field and live off potatoes and cabbage.

That sounds like progress alright.

_Cato_

hoorsmelt wrote: »

:rolleyes: Gob****e. Stalinism was based on centralised planning and coercion. This new system will have to be based on community and local production for local consumption.

I've a better idea - how about you give people the freedom to choose.

Lu Tze

Lu Tze wrote: »

Well if turbo timmy says it it must be true!

If it's on the internet it must be true!!

I thought the Worgl experiment with currency was a good idea, but 'local production only'? I don't think so - the lads down the road aren't going to build our ipods :pac:

Monty Burnz

bluewolf wrote: »

I thought the Worgl experiment with currency was a good idea, but 'local production only'? I don't think so - the lads down the road aren't going to build our ipods :pac:

They will if they can knit them out of wool and potatoes.

Fremen

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

Communities don't scale well beyond a few hundred people. After that, the tragedy of the commons kicks in.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

_Cato_ wrote: »

I've a better idea - how about you give people the freedom to choose.

relevant username is relevant

ejmaztec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So when we've all paid off our huge negative equity, we should sell the house, build a hut in the middle of a small field and live off potatoes and cabbage.

That sounds like progress alright.

That's a blight idea.

karma_

Damn, I think the OP is talking about co-operative schemes, which have been going on in Ireland for many years and will probably become more popular again, how the fúck it got equated to Stalinism within a page is crazy. In fairness, when I see who made such posts it's no great surprise the usual suspects are involved.

Sergeant

karma_ wrote: »

Damn, I think the OP is talking about co-operative schemes, which have been going on in Ireland for many years and will probably become more popular again, how the fúck it got equated to Stalinism within a page is crazy. In fairness, when I see who made such posts it's no great surprise the usual suspects are involved.

Co-operatives are fine, they work well in certain industries, but to say they will replace Capitalism and a global economy is politically naive at best, sheer stupidity at worst.

Fremen

karma_ wrote: »

Damn, I think the OP is talking about co-operative schemes, which have been going on in Ireland for many years and will probably become more popular again, how the fúck it got equated to Stalinism within a page is crazy. In fairness, when I see who made such posts it's no great surprise the usual suspects are involved.

The title "The death agony of capitalism" stinks of the typical student Marxist. Slogans, rhetoric and no practical ideas.

Monty Burnz

karma_ wrote: »

Damn, I think the OP is talking about co-operative schemes, which have been going on in Ireland for many years and will probably become more popular again, how the fúck it got equated to Stalinism within a page is crazy. In fairness, when I see who made such posts it's no great surprise the usual suspects are involved.

The OP was a bit thin on detail. Perhaps he might elaborate on this new system that will set us free, now that capitalism is 'on its knees' (as usual). As I recall it was on its knees in the time of Karl Marx too.

I'd be more inclined to subscribe to Schumpeter's idea of creative destruction than that of Marx.

karma_

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The OP was a bit thin on detail. Perhaps he might elaborate on this new system that will set us free, now that capitalism is 'on its knees' (as usual). As I recall it was on its knees in the time of Karl Marx too.

I'd be more inclined to subscribe to Schumpeter's idea of creative destruction than that of Marx.

It's not the system that sets us free.

Monty Burnz

karma_ wrote: »

It's not the system that sets us free.

Maybe not, but systems can certainly enslave us. Ask the folks who lived under communist/socialist rule in Eastern Europe for confirmation.

robd

The problem with this thread is the title. Once you mention the world "Capitalism" then it turns into a Capitalism vs Socialism debate.

The problem being reported, and it's been talked about more and more, is that the current money supply system is broken. That's not to say that Capitalism is broken, just that the current system whereby the US in particular spends about 1 trillion more than it earns each quarter is not sustainable.

The current debt backed money supply system only came into existence in the US in 1971. It was brought in due to rocketing inflation as a result of spending on the Vietnam War. The US has in recent times been involved in Afghanistan Iraq, and now Libya. Throughout history most wars have cause massive inflation. Surprise surprise inflation is showing signs of going though the roof. Of course inflation has been under-reported in the US for at least the last decade due to changes to calculation methods.

If the Chinese decide to stop buying or even curtail buying Treasury Bonds, the US is in deep deep trouble. Interesting to see China giving out about the US's participation in Libya and then a week later an announcement about reduced participation by US in Libya. China is desperately trying to protect it's investment. It's doesn't want inflation in US as it would seriously deflate the value of it's monstrous holding of Treasury bonds.

So in the end it comes down to trust. The exponential increase in US money supply is a bubble the same as every other bubble in history and it has to burst at some stage. Eventually the market loses faith. What happened in Ireland in terms of the market losing faith and massively pushing up the price of bonds to >10% can and will likely happen in the US. It's just a matter of time.

Then the US needs to default and invent some new money supply system. It will still be capitalism or whatever you want to call it just in a different form. Interesting times !!!

Overheal

Actually what failed isnt the Capitalism but the Social intervention of government. You start giving $700bn in bank bailouts here, buy a few car companies there, throw a bunch of money back to your constituents for being swell, and what are you left with?

When they took away the risk of Entrepreneurial Failure, thats when it failed. When they blocked the free market competition from eating up the rotting corpses of those banks, thats when it failed.

RichieC

Capitalism is an abject failure for most people living under it. it's just the people who thrive are those that buy ink by the barrel.

Monty Burnz

RichieC wrote: »

Capitalism is an abject failure for most people living under it. it's just the people who thrive are those that buy ink by the barrel.

I'm sorry, that's total poppycock. Living standards have been rising for hundreds of years under capitalism - for everybody. A poor person from the time of Marx would look at a 'poor' person today and wonder how the hell they managed to never go hungry, never lack a home, and never even have to work.

Biggins

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Lu Tze wrote: »

Well if turbo timmy says it it must be true!

Meh! I'm waiting for The Mail to run it - then I'll know its all true. :pac:

robd

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, that's total poppycock. Living standards have been rising for hundreds of years under capitalism - for everybody. A poor person from the time of Marx would look at a 'poor' person today and wonder how the hell they managed to never go hungry, never lack a home, and never even have to work.

We're rising. It's impossible to argue with the fact that living standards have dropped over the last decade for middle classes (now know as the coping classes) in all Western countries. To be specific, the ratio of income to daily expenditure has dropped hugely. Thanks to pumping so much money into keeping the system going despite two bubble crashes (dot.com and banking crisis). Inflation is rampant but completely under reported.

Orando Broom

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Like Star Trek? Who wants to work every hour God sent you on a spaceship for no money? **** that ****. How do they pay for space porther or moon ass?

Monty Burnz

robd wrote: »

We're rising. It's impossible to argue with the fact that living standards have dropped over the last decade for middle classes (now know as the coping classes) in all Western countries. To be specific, the ratio of income to daily expenditure has dropped hugely. Thanks to pumping so much money into keeping the system going despite two bubble crashes (dot.com and banking crisis). Inflation is rampant but completely under reported.

I'm inclined to agree with you in part, but where are you referring to? The US? Perhaps. Ireland? For sure, due to the idiocy of paying more than double what we should have been paying to buy property. But tell the German middle class, or the French, or the Belgians, that they are now poorer than they were in the 90s. They will not understand what you are getting at.

Dermighty

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

Well it worked in Cambodia so it must work here.... Oh wait it resulted in ethnic cleansing and genocide

fontanalis

Overheal wrote: »

Actually what failed isnt the Capitalism but the Social intervention of government. You start giving $700bn in bank bailouts here, buy a few car companies there, throw a bunch of money back to your constituents for being swell, and what are you left with?

When they took away the risk of Entrepreneurial Failure, thats when it failed. When they blocked the free market competition from eating up the rotting corpses of those banks, thats when it failed.

Well the intervener in the bail out was as far as I remember a capitalist through and through who was all for the markets, and I didn't see any of the Atlas's handing the money back either.
Personally I think the Western World has become too reliant on financial services (reading the Michael Lewis book The Big Short it seems that had those banks went bust then there would have been a cluster f***, which agains shows the over reliance); especially the dealing in debt.

ScumLord

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

Tell them to give us a call we'll bail them out.

Companero wrote: »

idea than Capitalism for running the world, I would genuinely love to hear it, but I am strongly sceptical that you do.

Vague statements like "The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership" will not cut it either.

If you've got a better idea it's gonna need to be really detailed, really complicated and have all sorts of built in checks and balances to stop it becoming totalitarian. It is the kind of thing that would require centuries or patient study and thought, and would probably require several wings of a library to explain itself properly.

The reason the left has failed so spectacularly since the 1960's has been its refusal to acknowledge the immense complexity of the world, and thus the immense complexity of the system needed to replace Capitalism. It seems to have been though sufficient to say "Capitalism's ****, It'll Collapse on Its Own, and we'll all start automatically being groovy to one another."

If you want to replace Capitalism with something better: Which Im all in favour of, you're going to have to put on a suit, get a degree in economics, law, finance, history and sociology and stay up very, very late and have a good , hard think. Good luck.

Zeitgeist, science based. instant win.

Overheal

fontanalis wrote: »

Well the intervener in the bail out was as far as I remember a capitalist through and through who was all for the markets

Apparently he wasn't, if he threw away one of the key principles of enterprise when it mattered: Risk.

Orando Broom

Dermighty wrote: »

Well it worked in Cambodia so it must work here.... Oh wait it resulted in ethnic cleansing and genocide

The smiley face pleases Pol Pot and the Khamer Rouge.

RichieC

Overheal wrote: »

Apparently he wasn't, if he threw away one of the key principles of enterprise when it mattered: Risk.

It's always been capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich... always. :rolleyes:

smokedeels

Capitalism is fine with me if you can opt out of the rat race, when you have to foot the bill for private debts it gets a bit much.

Socialism is to rigid and the government have far too much control over your life, it's not for me.

Overheal

RichieC wrote: »

It's always been capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich... always. :rolleyes:

That implies it's not possible for the poor to become rich.

gargleblaster

What we have now is actually cronyism, and that certainly doesn't work.

robd

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you in part, but where are you referring to? The US? Perhaps. Ireland? For sure, due to the idiocy of paying more than double what we should have been paying to buy property. But tell the German middle class, or the French, or the Belgians, that they are now poorer than they were in the 90s. They will not understand what you are getting at.

Yeh I agree that it's not such a problem is Germany, France, Belgium. In fact they're probably a good model to hold up as to where the world needs to be moving too (in financial terms). The US, UK, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal are in deep deep trouble though. It's the extreme form of capitalism built on exponential debt increase that's about to collapse.

Germany and France look seriously positioned to take advantage of this collapse too !!!

10 years of low growth but controlled inflation vs pumping growth and ignoring inflation. That's the difference.

Ireland is caught in being tied to Germany/France but trying to be the US.

sheesh

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

What have you got against cheap clothes,shoes, tea and coffee?

Have you any idea how much a pair of shoes made by an actual european would cost?????

what you are talking about is the poor being dressed in rags

why do you hate the poor?

Chairman Meow

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Turbo Timmy - The number 1 trusted source for world news :rolleyes:

dont worry son, when you grow up and stop listening to rage against the machine and actually have to work for a living, youll realise how laugable an idea socialism/communism is.

Wibbs

Chairman Meow wrote: »

dont worry son, when you grow up and stop listening to rage against the machine and actually have to work for a living, youll realise how laugable an idea socialism/communism is.

Ahh c,mon I don't agree with the OP, but the good oul retort of "you'll grow out of it sonny"? Give me an ever loving break. Sorry that's just lazy. Plus maybe it's just as likely he'll end up "working for a living" and realise how quite empty and stressful being a wage slave for life actually is. All depends on viewpoint.