The Death Agony of Capitalism

Killer Pigeon

karma_ wrote: »

If your going to make that argument then you would have to admit that socialism has been here even longer.

What? Give me an example of where, in a world where survival of the fittest pervades, socialism has even been able to function as Karl Marx envisaged.

karma_

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

What? Give me an example of where, in a world where survival of the fittest pervades, socialism has even been able to function as Karl Marx envisaged.

Why does it have to be as Karl Marx envisaged?

In a world where survival of the fittest pervades, humans formed close knit societies before they developed language and trade, for their own mutual gain.

Killer Pigeon

karma_ wrote: »

In a world where survival of the fittest pervades, humans formed close knit societies before they developed language and trade, for their own mutual gain.

Natural divisions ensued ... it was never to be. Feudal tribes don't amount to socialism.

jackiebaron

Sergeant wrote: »

Stalinism? Worked a treat the last time it was tried.

That's not Stalinism. Don't be so flippant.

karma_

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Natural divisions ensued ... it was never to be. Feudal tribes don't amount to socialism.

What the fcuk are you talking about? You just jumped about 50,000 years to feudal times. Do you even know what Feudalism is?

Monty Burnz

karma_ wrote: »

Why does it have to be as Karl Marx envisaged?

In a world where survival of the fittest pervades, humans formed close knit societies before they developed language and trade, for their own mutual gain.

I'm not really sure you can consider what basically amount to extended families and close friends as examples of socialism. That system still operates today - cousins/aunts/nephews/etc looking after children, helping out with odd jobs, lending things etc.

That's very much part of human nature, and hopefully we'll never lose that under any system.

Killer Pigeon

karma_ wrote: »

What the fcuk are you talking about? You just jumped about 50,000 years to feudal times. Do you even know what Feudalism is?

Humans only gained the ability to think 30,000 - 70,000 years ago. Tribal systems have been in place for ten-of-thousands. Wars between tribes would have been common place for the same period of time, thus feuding tribes (sorry I should have said feuding rather than feudal).

karma_

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm not really sure you can consider what basically amount to extended families and close friends as examples of socialism. That system still operates today - cousins/aunts/nephews/etc looking after children, helping out with odd jobs, lending things etc.

That's very much part of human nature, and hopefully we'll never lose that under any system.

Indeed, but it does go a little further than that, even from earliest times. I got too deep into the old anthropology territory in fairness, I was just trying to point out that you could argue that a form of socialism was around before capitalism.

ScumLord

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Humans only gained the ability to think 30,000 - 70,000 years ago. Tribal systems have been in place for ten-of-thousands. Wars between tribes would have been common place for the same period of time, thus feuding tribes (sorry I should have said feuding rather than feudal).

We've been intelligent thinkers from before we where human, there where in fact a lot of intelligent upright walking apes we're just the only ones that made it.

What separated us from the rest of them is our ability to get along with each other, it seems we traded culture and ideas across continents at the time Neanderthals where around which is what gave us the advantage over an animal that actually had a bigger brain than us.

Whats so unique about humans is not that we fight but for the most part we get along with each other despite culture and family bounds. We are in fact the nicest animal on the planet.

Irishstabber

Why in gods name are people sh*ting on about bloody political systems and affiliations. The OP was tralkin about the pending monetary crisis the whole flipping world is about to endure.

Inflation is rampant and debt is ever EVER rising.
The main feckin problem we ALL have is the fact, and it is a FACT, that the worlds moneys supply is controlled by private organisations and people through the central banks.

We don't get our money from our government or in our case from the European govt.
Out money comes from a feckin central bank.
MONEY=DEBT that is the problem.
Never mind about social or politcal ideologies having an impact on our lives. The root cause of most of the problems associated with those ideologies and our economy is that simple fact.
MONEY=DEBT.

I am NOT a socialist, communist, capitalist, left wing or right wing nut.
I simply understand that the inherent interest carried by the creation of money has had a detrimental effect on ALL of society, none more than the lower middle class and lower class.

Who in gods name wants to be a wage slave to pay for mediocre health care or products. Imagine living your life with never more than a couple hundred in your p*xy bank account?
It is so normal in our global society that people see it as normal.
"Ah yes i'll take that job at €8 euro an hour with 35 hours a week to pay for all my bills and bank loans". And thats all that person will pay out of that. He will get more loans to fund his living expenses.
Thats utterly disgraceful..
The whole system is cr*p. its completely wrong and favourts those at the top(Let me re-itterate im not a socialist). That's just simple fact.

The technology we posses TODAY is absolutely amazing.
Cars can drive themselves
We can harness energy from the earth which is virtually self sufficient( Who needs oil? Oh wait, OIL=PROFIT)...please dont give me the crap about how oil production creats jobs etc.
Medical procedures can save lives
We could cure most major diseases if we wanted(If those patients didnt create jobs, money in the healthcare sector)..Why stop profit??

There are many more examples of when the greed of profit has hindered our right to advance our health, well being and the social experience of our lives.

Money is plain and simple, GREED. The idea of using paper to buy and sell goods is pretty efficient but the "financial principles" behind it are completely distorted and truely only benefit those at the top.

I understand that the world wont change over night and that many of those corrupt systems create jobs and life security for the wage slaves most of us are but my god people need to open their eyes and realise that this system is wrong and is not in their best interest.

Imagine getting a loan from the bank that had no interest or deadlines attached to it. Could be possible if the government created the money rather than a central bank no?
Fair wages, fair prices for goods/services, no debtors. Who wouldn't be happy with that?

Please no left wing bullsh*t im far from it.

EDIT: Basically the monetary system we must endure today is a massive Ponzi scheme no? As in profit goes to the top...?

Monty Burnz

Irishstabber -

So you don't think that the current system of fiat currency works?

Well what is the alternative? Do we go back to barter? Or gold, as a means of exchange? (You may wish to read up on mercantilism in that case)

Or do we scrap the idea of paying for goods and services altogether? I really don't know what other options exist.

(by the way, there are some crazy assertions in your post, but we may as well focus on the on-topic bit first)

I'd like to see Communism given a proper chance without it being defeated by war.. Brother's wife grew up in it and her father ran a factory employing over 5000 people. No richer than next door and she said it was really good... Heath care etc. was provided and no one was left behind.

I know all the reasons against the idealogy after studying it for years and years so don't bore me with them and definitely don't mention North Korea since sanctions are their biggest problem... I would simply like to see it as a matter of interest.

Irishstabber

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Irishstabber -

So you don't think that the current system of fiat currency works?

Well what is the alternative? Do we go back to barter? Or gold, as a means of exchange? (You may wish to read up on mercantilism in that case)

Or do we scrap the idea of paying for goods and services altogether? I really don't know what other options exist.

(by the way, there are some crazy assertions in your post, but we may as well focus on the on-topic bit first)

I think that if we can disengage the notion that a central bank has to issue "our" money that many of the financial problems we are currently encountering wouldn't be happening, along with proper regulation of course.
Look at Iceland. Before deregulation in the 90's that country was the perfect economy, used natural resources for energy creation and the societal value were among the best in the world. Perfectly sound country.
Deregulation brough the green monkey clawing for profit. Banks began speculating and issuing crazy loans etc and look what happened.

The only difference is that the Icelandic people got it right. The banks screwed up, we shouldn't have to pay, they said. They were right as their economy now shows.

What are these crazy assertions by the way because all I mentioned above were facts nothing speculative or made up.

The Alternative is a moneytary system provided by the government not a private individual or cartel.

Monty Burnz

Irishstabber, we can deal with that stuff later if you like, but you didn't really address the questions I asked.

Regarding Iceland, they didn't suddenly adopt a central bank in the 2000's, they've had one in one form or other since early in the last century and used a fiat currency (and still do) same as everyone else.

After sovereignity in 1918 political opinion shifted against leaving the right to issue notes in the hands of a foreign-controlled bank. The power to issue notes was therefore gradually moved from Íslandsbanki to the state-owned Landsbanki.

Monetary policy did not play an active part in the management of the Icelandic economy in the early postwar period. Landsbanki had had the sole right since 1927 to issue notes, as well as being the main commercial bank with a market share of well over half of all deposits in banks and savings banks. With such strong commercial banking interests and limited central banking functions it is only to be expected that monetary policy should have taken a back seat in Landsbanki´s activities. An important step was taken to change this situation in 1957 when the note-issue department was given separate management as well as new instruments for regulating the liquidity of the banking system. However, this was obviously a halfway house, and in 1961 the step was finally taken of creating a fully autonomous Central Bank out of Landsbanki´s central banking department.

Irishstabber

Terribly sorry I didn't get across my point.
I understnad Iceland had a central bank of course it did. Every country bar one or two has one, 9/10 times owned privately. But it was stringently regulated. The current climate of de regulation for financial institutions is one a the major contributing factors in our global recession. The world's economy is absed on this financial commodity. What the hell is that all about. You cannot feel finiance yet our economies are dictated by it.

I did answer your question. I do not favour a monetary system at all but I do understand that change will not happen until im either very old or dead.
As I have said though. A system of money issued by governments rather than banks, for example the America Greenback.
In the long run I believe a balanced distribution of goods and services can be achievable. Not in my lifetime unfortunately but in time. BUT, that is only when we allow ourselves to openly embrace and use the technology we currently posses but do not use because of profit margins and expense.

Does that answer your question?
And may I re-itterate this is not communism or socialism. Politics is inherently corrupt I do not associate my views with any policy, political system or personal benefits.

Pepe LeFrits

Orando Broom wrote: »

Like Star Trek? Who wants to work every hour God sent you on a spaceship for no money? **** that ****. How do they pay for space porther or moon ass?

Holodeck my friend, you know what I'm saying!

... I'd sign-up in a flash. Just as long as I wasn't going to be put on janitor duty.

Killer Pigeon

ScumLord wrote: »

We've been intelligent thinkers from before we where human, there where in fact a lot of intelligent upright walking apes we're just the only ones that made it.

What separated us from the rest of them is our ability to get along with each other, it seems we traded culture and ideas across continents at the time Neanderthals where around which is what gave us the advantage over an animal that actually had a bigger brain than us.

Whats so unique about humans is not that we fight but for the most part we get along with each other despite culture and family bounds. We are in fact the nicest animal on the planet.

That start wars and build weapons that have the ability to kill millions in seconds ....

What about Koalas, eh? What have they done to anyone.

ScumLord

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

What about Koalas, eh? What have they done to anyone.

Vicious little feckers so they are from what I've heard.

Jesus Wept

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Ugh, more socialist rubbish.

Local production? Sure, i'll get the lad down the road to build me a car and grow me some pineapples.

pm sent

force majeure

mama mia what ye do to me
my my ameracano can no
mama mia what to do with my
aloovated mula bullion
fromo aunt ameracanno.

Monty Burnz

The-Rigger wrote: »

pm sent

Still taking orders for local pineapples?

Captain Darling

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The US is going to run out of money tomorrow, and there may be a default by the US on debt owed by the middle of next month. The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership.

http://politifi.com/news/Turbo-Timmy-Says-US-Will-Run-Out-of-Money-Unless-Debt-Limit-is-Increased-by-May-16-1861820.html

Intredasting

hoorsmelt

Captain Darling wrote: »

Intredasting

It's on the verge of shutdown now. Have a read of this.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/7/senate-leader-reid-government-headed-shutdown/

Thrill

Shutdowns are not as dramatic as they sound. The U.S. Gov has shut down many times in the past.........

the US government shut down 10 times during the Carter and Reagan administrations.

It also shut down for 26 days during the Clinton Presidency.

The Congressional Research Service found that during the Clinton-era shutdowns - which lasted 26 days - veterans' services all but ceased, the National Park Service shuttered 368 sites, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention stopped disease monitoring and toxic waste clean-up was suspended.


Over 30,000 applications for US visas were stalled each day and 200,000 passport applications sat unattended on desks.

Shutdowns happen because a law passed in 1870 prohibits the government from operating if a budget hasn't been passed, except in the case of emergencies.

Mostly a government shutdown works by furloughing nonessential government workers.


They are usually suspended without pay and later given back pay, even though they had not worked during that period.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12571718

Dudess

How is capitalism dying? As long as there is commercial enterprise, there is capitalism. Arts & crafts shops, vegan cafés - the preserve of the "hippy" yet the establishment of these enterprises is capitalism in motion. Capitalism isn't just about huge, evil corporations. The above are proof that you can be capitalist yet have a social conscience.
I don't understand the "either/or" nature of this discussion. A person can be a capitalist (setting up their own business - e.g. a bar) AND a socialist (believing in social equality).

Full-on, survival-of-the-fittest capitalism where you need a certain amount of resources in the first place to benefit, thus excluding those who have nothing though - well only a greedy, selfish person would advocate that.

hoorsmelt

Dudess wrote: »

How is capitalism dying? As long as there is commercial enterprise, there is capitalism. Arts & crafts shops, vegan cafés - the preserve of the "hippy" yet the establishment of these enterprises is capitalism in motion. Capitalism isn't just about huge, evil corporations. The above are proof that you can be capitalist yet have a social conscience.
I don't understand the "either/or" nature of this discussion. A person can be a capitalist (setting up their own business - e.g. a bar) AND a socialist (believing in social equality).

Theoretically yes, but in reality those are the places being squeezed hard by this crisis and which won't come through it. Capitalism has a tendency towards monopoly (ie the vesting of greater and greater wealth in a diminishing number of people) and that's why, for instance, it's getting rarer and rarer to see a corner shop which isn't a Mace/Spar /Centra etc. Also, socialism isn't about just social equality, it's a set of beliefs involving some form of common ownership of the means of production, be that centralised as Stalinists or decentralised and more co-op formed as others advocate. Many libertarians see no contradiction in believing in social equality for LGBT etc and supporting a rabid free market economy. I understand your point, but modern capitalism has run out of options for continuing and prolonged economic growth- keynesianism and the free market have both failed, and there is nothing else out there as of yet which could replace those.

Monty Burnz

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Theoretically yes, but in reality those are the places being squeezed hard by this crisis and which won't come through it. Capitalism has a tendency towards monopoly (ie the vesting of greater and greater wealth in a diminishing number of people) and that's why, for instance, it's getting rarer and rarer to see a corner shop which isn't a Mace/Spar /Centra etc.

I'd argue that every manifestation of socialism has tended far more towards monopoly - state monopolies. Capitalist democracies are aware that monopolies are unhealthy, and therefore are not allowed to exist. That is why you have a choice of Spar/Mace/SuperValu/Centra/Local Guy or whatever. And you have laws so that if these guys are proved to be acting as a cartel, they are severely punished.

And of course under capitalism, if somebody is earning supernormal profits, competitors are free to enter the market to take a slice of these until the market is operating efficiently.

Worztron

The people that get paid the most are those that contribute very little if nothing to society i.e. those in the stock market, bankers. etc.

I know this article is over 4 years old but I am sure the situation is even more unequal now. Capitalism rewards greed and dishonesty. Despicable.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/dec/06/business.internationalnews

The current system is broken!

Monty Burnz

Worztron wrote: »

The people that get paid the most are those that contribute very little if nothing to society i.e. those in the stock market, bankers. etc.

I know this article is over 4 years old but I am sure the situation is even more unequal now. Capitalism rewards greed and dishonesty. Despicable.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/dec/06/business.internationalnews

The current system is broken!

If you want to know what role these apparent parasites are playing, look up capital allocation. But I would tend to agree that people who work with cash and essentially set their own levels of pay are going to award themselves rather too much money.

Sykk

Companero wrote: »

idea than Capitalism for running the world, I would genuinely love to hear it, but I am strongly sceptical that you do.

Vague statements like "The time has come for a new economic system based on communities, local production, and common ownership" will not cut it either.

If you've got a better idea it's gonna need to be really detailed, really complicated and have all sorts of built in checks and balances to stop it becoming totalitarian. It is the kind of thing that would require centuries or patient study and thought, and would probably require several wings of a library to explain itself properly.

The reason the left has failed so spectacularly since the 1960's has been its refusal to acknowledge the immense complexity of the world, and thus the immense complexity of the system needed to replace Capitalism. It seems to have been though sufficient to say "Capitalism's ****, It'll Collapse on Its Own, and we'll all start automatically being groovy to one another."

If you want to replace Capitalism with something better: Which Im all in favour of, you're going to have to put on a suit, get a degree in economics, law, finance, history and sociology and stay up very, very late and have a good , hard think. Good luck.

Marry me?