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UN workers killed in Afghanistan

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Comments

  • #392
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »
    Let's be realistic here. There was no need for him to burn the book, and it was clear that it would offend a substantial population and was likely to cause a backlash. It is not like posting on a website. The website is not the pillar of an entire belief system.

    Every time you and others say this you are legitimising taking violent action because of offense. You do realise this? It's like saying that Salman Rushdie shouldn't have written the Satanic Verses due to the outburst that happened in the Islamic world, or that the Jylands Posten shouldn't have published the Muhammad cartoons. Every time we put the blame onto anyone else other than those who have lashed out in violence even if the others did serve as provocateurs we are pretty much saying it is acceptable and reasonable for people to lash out violently due to offense. Or was it justifiable that Lars Vilks was attacked for drawing offensive pictures of Muhammad as a dog?
    ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »
    In saying that, if there was a real threat that people might die if you posted on this website, would you really start blabbering about liberty and go ahead and do it anyway?

    My point is the blame is on the murderers.
    ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »
    I think I could live without it, just like he could have lived without burning the Koran.

    You shouldn't have to sacrifice your liberty to murderers.


  • #393
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You shouldn't have to sacrifice your liberty to murderers.

    I agree, but you also shouldn't exercise your liberty to carry out unnecessary actions which will result in others being hurt. Burning a Qur'an is totally unnecessary and doesn't achieve anything.


  • #394
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    irishconvert wrote: »
    I agree, but you also shouldn't exercise your liberty to carry out unnecessary actions which will result in others being hurt. Burning a Qur'an is totally unnecessary and doesn't achieve anything.

    Agreed 100%. Rights come with responsibilities to exercise them with a bit of common sense. I have managed to enjoy my rights and freedomes and liberty thus far without burning a copy of the Qu'ran or any other book. Stupid and reckless thing to do.

    The two events can be separated. Calling the pastor, or vice pastor or whatever he was an irresponsible fool does not legitimise the violent response in any way, shape or form.


  • #395
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Jakkass wrote: »
    My point is the blame is on the murderers..

    The blame is on the murderers. They murdered UN workers there to help the people of Afghanistan. I blame the pastor for being an idiot and willingly doing something knowing what the likely outcome would be.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    You shouldn't have to sacrifice your liberty to murderers.

    You don't sacrifice a liberty by not exercising.


  • #396
    jackiebaron
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    SamHarris, were you satisfied with the links I sent you regarding US negotiations with the Taleban with reference to the Caspian-IO pipeline prior to 9/11?


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  • #397
    SamHarris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    I'll try another way.

    Suppose a guy loses his job but is too ashamed to tell his wife and so he decides to jump off a high building. A negotiator turns up to try and talk him out of it.

    Now, along comes pastor Jones and says, 'I know this man and his wife is having an affair; I should tell him'. The negotiator says, 'No, don't. It might cause him to react badly' and asks the pastor to stay out of the negotiation.

    So the pastor leaves and returns with a megaphone and informs the guy who lost his job that his wife is being unfaithful. The guy jumps.

    Okay, the guy committed suicide by jumping off the building but the pastor pushed him.

    Oh! And the pastor is having an affair with the man's wife.

    It's much more like him going on the radio, telling everyone to jump and then him getting blamed for anyone who was contemplating suicide then carrying out the action.

    It's sad that people are so terrified of the potential consequences of free speech.


  • #398
    SamHarris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »
    Let's be realistic here. There was no need for him to burn the book, and it was clear that it would offend a substantial population and was likely to cause a backlash. It is not like posting on a website. The website is not the pillar of an entire belief system.

    In saying that, if there was a real threat that people might die if you posted on this website, would you really start blabbering about liberty and go ahead and do it anyway?

    I think I could live without it, just like he could have lived without burning the Koran.

    If my defence of free speech here would cause someone in Afghanistan to go on a rampage I would take no responsibility for it whatsoever - and neither should that pastor. Luckily he won't, in the eyes of the law, if he burns 100 Korans I do not see it happening.

    I don't want to. No more than I want to see some holocaust denier being prosecuted (I would argue that is much more "offensive" to people), they may both be ignorant and I wouldn't want to associate with them, but that is exactly the kind of speech that needs to be protected.

    People here honestly don't realise how subjective and danherous a criteria like "Causing offense" is to deeming something prosecutable? That beggars belief.


  • #399
    SamHarris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    prinz wrote: »
    Agreed 100%. Rights come with responsibilities to exercise them with a bit of common sense. I have managed to enjoy my rights and freedomes and liberty thus far without burning a copy of the Qu'ran or any other book. Stupid and reckless thing to do.

    The two events can be separated. Calling the pastor, or vice pastor or whatever he was an irresponsible fool does not legitimise the violent response in any way, shape or form.

    Calling him a fool does not, prosecuting him / implying he is to blame for the attacks does.


  • #400
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Excellent post. If someone threatens your liberty with the consequence of attacking others and you continue to live and act freely. Is it earnestly your fault if that person unleashes their anger at others?

    Interesting; posting to a forum is being equated with xenophobic insults.:rolleyes:

    You may well be free and have the right to insult someones wife but don't be surprised if the husband punches you in the mouth.

    The jaw of an ass can kill a thousand men.

    Free-speech can be very expensive.


  • #401
    SamHarris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    jackiebaron wrote: »
    Sam, it's been cited in Rashid's book about the Taliban in 2000. This is a source that I've have been only thus far been able to glean. Please read rather than scoffing:

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/bl_tft.htm

    Apparently Ron Paul was privy to these talks as well.

    The invitation by the Clinton Administration of the Taliban to Texas is, however, well documented.

    Thanks.

    Well clearly they did not carry through on the threat untill after 9/11, which again has been shown beyond reasonable doubt (even by those who carried out the attack) to be the operational centre of those attacks and others. With the consent and support of the Taliban government.

    I remind you the embassy bombings took place that year, the US and Taliban were hardly allies. IF there was other factors in the invasion (and there should be, everything should be taken into account) they are overshadowed completly by the 9/11 attacks - there is little doubt the entire last decade would have played out the way it has if had not taken place, including both wars.


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  • #402
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Jakkass wrote: »

    My point is the blame is on the murderers.



    Close the thread.
    Anyone else trying the soft defense of trying to lay blame on the Jones nutter is an embarassmnet to human progress.


  • #403
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Interesting; posting to a forum is being equated with xenophobic insults.:rolleyes:

    You may well be free and have the right to insult someones wife but don't be surprised if the husband punches you in the mouth.

    The jaw of an ass can kill a thousand men.

    Free-speech can be very expensive.

    While murderous savages are just dangerous.


  • #404
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Calling him a fool does not, prosecuting him / implying he is to blame for the attacks does.

    Prosecuting him when he hasn't broken any laws is a difficult thing. Implying that morally he has a lot to answer for does, and in my opinion he did play a role in the whole thing, does not legitimise someone else committing murder. He played a part. He didn't murder anyone.


  • #405
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    irishconvert wrote: »
    I agree, but you also shouldn't exercise your liberty to carry out unnecessary actions which will result in others being hurt. Burning a Qur'an is totally unnecessary and doesn't achieve anything.

    Exactly; why can't people who are so quick to point out their devoutness and closeness to god be the bigger men here? Are they not happy and confident enough in their beliefs that god will punish who they consider to be a sinner?


  • #406
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    prinz wrote: »
    Prosecuting him when he hasn't broken any laws is a difficult thing. Implying that morally he has a lot to answer for does, and in my opinion he did play a role in the whole thing, does not legitimise someone else committing murder. He played a part. He didn't murder anyone.

    Yet so much attention is focused on him.


  • #407
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Yet so much attention is focused on him.

    Seeing as how attention is exactly what him and his ilk are after it seems natural. Also AFAIK the killers haven't been identified, caught and it's unlikely they will ever be known. So just what are we suppose to focus on at that end beside some nameless, faceless animals?


  • #408
    SamHarris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Interesting; posting to a forum is being equated with xenophobic insults.:rolleyes:

    You may well be free and have the right to insult someones wife but don't be surprised if the husband punches you in the mouth.

    The jaw of an ass can kill a thousand men.

    Free-speech can be very expensive.

    It can. But then so can every freedom.


  • #409
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    prinz wrote: »
    Seeing as how attention is exactly what him and his ilk are after it seems natural. Also AFAIK the killers haven't been identified, caught and it's unlikely they will ever be known. So just what are we suppose to focus on at that end beside some nameless, faceless animals?

    I would love that we could focus on bringing these murders to justice. Jones is a piece of filth; but everytime some one says or does something these supposedly devout men of god don't like they cause murder. How the hell can there be progress in places liek Afghanistan?


  • #410
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    SamHarris wrote: »
    It can. But then so can every freedom.

    Yes.

    It is simply a matter of manners.

    The murderers can be described as evil but that doesn't mean that pastor Jones is not evil.


  • #411
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Yes.

    It is simply a matter of manners.

    The murderers can be described as evil but that doesn't mean that pastor Jones is not evil.

    No comaprison whatsoever!


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  • #412
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    fontanalis wrote: »
    No comaprison whatsoever!

    Do you think your government loves you; are they are looking out for your interests?

    I don't. I think they are a bunch of self-serving hypocrites.

    Why on earth would anyone believe for a second that Iraq and Afghanistan are being occupied in the interests of Iraqis or Afghanis?

    Pastor Jones is an anti-Islamist! The war is being fought on his behalf.

    Pasor Jones shares in the culpability because, metaphorically speaking, he pressed a 'bomb-release' button. A bomb fell and now those UN workers are dead.

    It's simple.


  • #413
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    Haven't you heard?

    The Crusades are back on!


  • #414
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Do you think your government loves you; are they are looking out for your interests?

    I don't. I think they are a bunch of self-serving hypocrites.

    Why on earth would anyone believe for a second that Iraq and Afghanistan are being occupied in the interests of Iraqis or Afghanis?

    Pastor Jones is an anti-Islamist! The war is being fought on his behalf.

    Pasor Jones shares in the culpability because, metaphorically speaking, he pressed a 'bomb-release' button. A bomb fell and now those UN workers are dead.

    It's simple.

    Grow up and stop defending murderers. Have I mentioned the government it's completely and utterly relevant and you bringing it up shows your maturity; you are on the wrong side of this arguement and the sooner you realise that the better.
    You think the scum that murders people over a book are pro you?


  • #415
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    SamHarris wrote: »
    It can. But then so can every freedom.

    Anyway, what free-speech?

    I wonder, why is there not a forum on boards.ie labelled 'Judaism'?


  • #416
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Haven't you heard?

    The Crusades are back on!

    Again grow up!


  • #417
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Anyway, what free-speech?

    I wonder, why is there not a forum on boards.ie labelled 'Judaism'?

    That has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Jesus wept!


  • #418
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    I wonder, why is there not a forum on boards.ie labelled 'Judaism'?

    Take a search in the Feedback forum and you'll find that it is because there aren't enough Jews using boards.


  • #419
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Grow up and stop defending murderers. Have I mentioned the government it's completely and utterly relevant and you bringing it up shows your maturity; you are on the wrong side of this arguement and the sooner you realise that the better.
    You think the scum that murders people over a book are pro you?

    Now, you have to back that up.

    Deliver one link where I have defended murders?

    Then we will talk!


  • #420
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Take a search in the Feedback forum and you'll find that it is because there aren't enough Jews using boards.

    How many Christians use the atheist site?


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  • #421
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Now, you have to back that up.

    Deliver one link where I have defended murders?

    Then we will talk!

    Ok I will retract the defending murderers bit, but if you are diverting focus to the pastor and the gubberment and away from the savages it's as good as.


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