Social Welfare Fraud

Idbatterim · 02-04-2011 3:26pm #1

As anywhere the goverment turns to raise money gets shouted down be it from pensioners, those on welfare, or those in the PS or private sector through PAYE and USC rises etc. Would one of the easiest targets not be welfare fraud? I.e a private company is given the task of tackling this and they would get a % of savings, also people that made tip offs of fraudsters could be financially rewarded, if the claim turns out to be true. I assume welfare fraud runs into the billions? as no one can condone or seem to support welfare fraud, would this not be the easiest way to get a substantial saving, without every vested interest claiming, unfair, unfair? For the government its all about getting the money from where there will be least resistance, regardless of whether its fair or not! Also we know that money saved through cuts is far less damaging than tax rises. An amnesty could be given for those currently engaging in it...

Cookie_Monster · 02-04-2011 3:30pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

An amnesty could be given for those currently engaging in it...

why?

why not instead make them pay back 150% of what they fraudulently claimed as a penalty

Idbatterim · 02-04-2011 3:36pm

Im not joking, but when welfare fraudsters here are caught, are they made to pay anything back and if so isnt it from taxpayers money anyway?! I honestly wouldnt be at all surprised if there were no consequences, which would apply to pretty much everything in this country...

bizmark · 02-04-2011 3:39pm

I think they stop money from your dole for a certain amount of time till the amount is payed off so i guess it is basically like paying themselves from their own money but it is a punishment for the person down money

Idbatterim · 02-04-2011 3:41pm

ok but if they stop dole, what are they meant to live on? there is no way in the biggest bleeding heart country in the world, that they make someone live on nothing and face consequences!

bizmark · 02-04-2011 3:46pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

ok but if they stop dole, what are they meant to live on? there is no way in the biggest bleeding heart country in the world, that they make someone live on nothing and face consequences!

Its a small amount over a number of weeks which seems fair enough however from one or two people i know they will cut you off while they "investigate" which can go on for quite a while

sollar · 02-04-2011 3:54pm

Anyone convicted of welfare fraud should have the money taken back of them + a fine and live of vouchers until its all paid back.

theparish · 02-04-2011 3:58pm

Welfare fraud is only the tip of the iceberg.People have a very stereotypical view of people on welfare.What about the money owing to poor banking regulation/policies,the money wasted by the previous government,benchmarking etc etc etc.The list is as long as my arm.

danbohan · 02-04-2011 4:02pm

sollar wrote: »

Anyone convicted of welfare fraud should have the money taken back of them + a fine and live of vouchers until its all paid back.

whats with the vouchers ? , if your caught frauding starve or emigrate !

sollar · 02-04-2011 4:14pm

danbohan wrote: »

whats with the vouchers ?

Vouchers that can only be spent on essentials. They could be government issued and not be usable in pubs, bookies etc

MagicSean · 02-04-2011 5:07pm

danbohan wrote: »

whats with the vouchers ? , if your caught frauding starve or emigrate !

It's not the childrens fault that Daddy and Mammy are cheating scroungers.

usamaoreilly · 03-04-2011 12:11am

Why is everyone always going on about social welfare this and social welfare that....The biggest fraudsters in the history of the country have just retired and are living in the lap of luxury,either here or in the USA...They are laughing at the likes of us here discussing social welfare fraud...I reckon the amount lost to SW fraud is a mere drop in the ocean compared to the corporate/banking/political fraud which was carried out in this country in the last decade or so...Why are they not made pay it back?

Amhran Nua · 03-04-2011 2:07am

theparish wrote: »

People have a very stereotypical view of people on welfare.

Indeed, during the boom we had as near full employment as makes no difference. If the jobs are there people will work.

danbohan wrote: »

whats with the vouchers ? , if your caught frauding starve or emigrate !

There'll be no starving anybody, you create a lot more problems than you fix that way. A starving man imprisoned for stealing food costs the state ten times more than someone on the dole, and you still have to pay for his family.

We need to set our sights a bit higher, methinks.

Oh_Noes · 03-04-2011 2:19am

The type of money involved in welfare cuts/fraud is not even flea-sized in comparison to what's being thrown into the big black banking hole. Reforms, changes in fraud policy etc., wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to anything at the moment.

pocketvenus · 03-04-2011 12:41pm

think the bigger issue is it seems the Gov has no real interest in tacking welfare fraud. For how many years have we heard the usual line being trottted out by Gov they are going to tackle it and what do they do nothing but enforce the same cuts on everyone.

The main problem is until they decided to take a proper appraoch to the issue of fraud then the only people going to suffer are the recently unnemployed. The individuals who are able to play the system and screw it for everything, will still be able to do this.

This was highlighted at height of boom when we still had a fair amount of people on the live register. We were crying out for people to take jobs, who did and we had the Polish etc coming over who were more than willing to do the. Instead of the Gov saying to these people get up of your ass and into work, getting them into FAS etc, what did they do give them even more cash. I mean WTF

Another thing is the Gov & local county/city councils know the whole fraud going on with a % of single mothers who are claiming full allowances and prenteding the boyfriend is not living with them. Our Gov answer turn a blind eye as they are too scared to go after them.

All we hear about tacking fraud is oh it too hard, ssytem won't allow it etc. Never mind say certain bleeding heart interest groups who are enbaling fraud.

The above are only 2 examples of where the Gov should be looking to save money before making cuts. As if you don't well making all the cuts in the world won't help.

And before anyone starts getting on to me about SW and living on it. I know all about it. I was made redundant about 20 months ago and entitled to the basic €188 a week. I am not looking for anything else. I worked all my life from the time I was 16 starting with part-times jobs through school, college and then after I graduated. I have never been unemployed before & after all the taxes I paid, and people in the same situation as myself, we are getting less than people who never lifted a fringer or contributed to the society.
It sickens me and make me so angry at times.

Pauleta · 03-04-2011 1:01pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

As anywhere the goverment turns to raise money gets shouted down be it from pensioners, those on welfare, or those in the PS or private sector through PAYE and USC rises etc. Would one of the easiest targets not be welfare fraud? I.e a private company is given the task of tackling this and they would get a % of savings, also people that made tip offs of fraudsters could be financially rewarded, if the claim turns out to be true. I assume welfare fraud runs into the billions? as no one can condone or seem to support welfare fraud, would this not be the easiest way to get a substantial saving, without every vested interest claiming, unfair, unfair? For the government its all about getting the money from where there will be least resistance, regardless of whether its fair or not! Also we know that money saved through cuts is far less damaging than tax rises. An amnesty could be given for those currently engaging in it...

I wanted to put this to any politician that knocked on my door during the election but nobody called. Nearly everyone knows somebody who is claiming single mothers allowance despite living with a partner and most likely claiming rent allowance. Off the top of my head i can think of 6 people i know. If i was offered 100 quid a head i would gladly shop them in and it would save the state thousands. Its my moral obligation to inform on them but if they were caught it would be at a disadvantage to me as i would probably have to see them more often. 600 quid would make it tolerable

not yet · 03-04-2011 5:29pm

Oh_Noes wrote: »

The type of money involved in welfare cuts/fraud is not even flea-sized in comparison to what's being thrown into the big black banking hole. Reforms, changes in fraud policy etc., wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to anything at the moment.

Grand so lets just ignore it then...........

Oh_Noes · 03-04-2011 6:16pm

not yet wrote: »

Grand so lets just ignore it then...........

Fraud should be investigated like any other crime. I was disputing the idea that making the poor poorer would solve Ireland's woes.

Count Dooku · 03-04-2011 6:50pm

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Fraud should be investigated like any other crime. I was disputing the idea that making the poor poorer would solve Ireland's woes.

it will make poor less tolerant to crimes committed by rich

Shea O'Meara · 03-04-2011 7:06pm

It's one kind of fraud for the working class and another for the politicians it seems.
Sure it's easier to put the finger on, but it seems the greater the fraud, the more cost to the tax payer, the less likely we'll see any of it back or anyone paying the price.
Yet, now things are pretty screwed because of such people, we should look at the spongers on the dole:rolleyes:

I suppose someone committing dole fraud can claim a defence of 'monkey see, monkey do'.

not yet · 03-04-2011 8:09pm

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Fraud should be investigated like any other crime. I was disputing the idea that making the poor poorer would solve Ireland's woes.

Please explain to me how stopping welfare fraud makes the poor poorer.
The dogs on the street know how much cheating is going on, primetime 16 months ago reckon a conservative figure is 2 billion.

Tea drinker · 03-04-2011 11:39pm

usamaoreilly wrote: »

Why is everyone always going on about social welfare this and social welfare that....The biggest fraudsters in the history of the country have just retired and are living in the lap of luxury,either here or in the USA...They are laughing at the likes of us here discussing social welfare fraud...I reckon the amount lost to SW fraud is a mere drop in the ocean compared to the corporate/banking/political fraud which was carried out in this country in the last decade or so...Why are they not made pay it back?

and the other eejits running around shooting lads up north, biggest treason the country ever faced and they still show how dumb they are.
At least if they were clued in the crooks might be afraid of them, onbviously the gardai and judiciary are their buddies too.

keithcan · 05-04-2011 2:28am

pocketvenus wrote: »

it seems the Gov has no real interest in tacking welfare fraud. This was highlighted at height of boom when we still had a fair amount of people on the live register. We were crying out for people to take jobs. Another thing is the Gov & local county/city councils know the whole fraud going on with a % of single mothers who are claiming full allowances and prenteding the boyfriend is not living with them. Our Gov answer turn a blind eye as they are too scared to go after them. All we hear about tacking fraud is oh it too hard, ssytem won't allow it etc. Never mind say certain bleeding heart interest groups who are enbaling fraud.

There's a reality to SW fraud that some of it is harder to catch than other types. Proving the unmarried mother has the boyfriend living in the house is difficult for the very obvious reason that the people involved work hard to NOT get caught. There's a network that will work hard to mess up the SW inspector, so that when s/he arrives in an area, the calls go out to hide the evidence.

Imagine, as comparison, two situations where a robbery was committed, both with several witnesses. In one, the witnesses approach the Gardai and want to identify the culprits and give evidence against them. In another, nobody will assist the Gardai and all claim not to have seen the event and refuse to give evidence. Chances the Gardai will get an early, successful prosecution in the first case, and will most likely struggle or will fail to get one in the 2nd case.

'Bleeding heart interest groups' are not a factor in facilitating fraud. What is the biggest factor is the reality that big numbers of people work hard to cover fraud to the very best of their ability. I accept that the Dept could do better in some cases, but it really is about the behaviour of people.

djpbarry · 05-04-2011 9:04am

Idbatterim wrote: »

as no one can condone or seem to support welfare fraud...

Are you kidding? I accept this is purely anecdotal, but from my perspective, welfare fraud is rampant in Ireland. I was unemployed in Ireland last year and virtually everyone I spoke to encouraged me to apply for state benefits that I was not eligible for. I know “long-term unemployed” people who have made virtually no attempt to find work for years. I know of people married to British nationals who travel to the UK to obtain free healthcare. I know at least one person who is claiming a disability benefit, the terms of which stipulate that she live alone (not sure of the particulars), but she lives with her brother. Of course the point is, it’s not just me – we all know these people. Fraud is ubiquitous in Irish society (“Ah, it’s grand – sure isn’t everyone else at it too?”), which is precisely why fraudsters are routinely elected to the Dáil – people get the government they deserve.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

It's one kind of fraud for the working class and another for the politicians it seems.

No, it’s exactly the same. It’s the acceptance among Irish society of crimes such as welfare fraud that lead to indifference toward political indiscretions.

Idbatterim · 05-04-2011 11:57am

I think I read that up to 3 billion may be fraudulent claims! If a private company were hired, and with the help of tip offs, Im sure a fortune could be saved... Look at the companies in the states that insurers hire after an accident, where people say the have bad back, cant walk etc, then they video evidence to the contrary... Also I read a good point about rent allowance, single people should house share, not have their own place...

donkey balls · 06-04-2011 3:07am

During the so called boom years fraud should have been the number one priorty for the Dept of Welfare to tackle instead due to the $$$$ floating around they never bothered,I know a person who works in the fraud end of things for the dept who told me that there numbers were/are being cut back due to the mess were in at present.
On the social welfare website there is a link that you can fill out to report bogus claims.

Athlone_Bhoy · 06-04-2011 3:32am

If someone is working and claiming they deserve jail IMO.

Tayla · 06-04-2011 3:46am

Athlone_Bhoy wrote: »

If someone is working and claiming they deserve jail IMO.

In fairness though, it is not like the way some people worked and claimed during the boom, there are many people now who do it because they have to, they do not have the money to support their families if they don't.

A friend of mine on the dole got 2 days work a few months ago, told social welfare who put her on part time dole, her payments ended up delayed for weeks because of it and she ended up really struggling.

There needs to be another seperate system to the part time dole than the one we have, where someone who maybe gets 'the odd day' here and there can just let them know and get the form stamped and then the day deducted because as it stands if someone got a days work here and there they would have to bring in the form to say they worked 1 day this week and they would be put on the part time dole, then after that they would have to make a new claim and go back on the full time dole, then they get another couple of days another time and it's the same thing all over again, it's not practical and people need the money for food and electricity and the current system of sorting how much money you get is based on people with regular part time work and unfortunately there are a lot of people who may get a little work but it is not regular.

Athlone_Bhoy · 06-04-2011 3:56am

Tayla wrote: »

In fairness though, it is not like the way some people worked and claimed during the boom, there are many people now who do it because they have to, they do not have the money to support their families if they don't.

A friend of mine on the dole got 2 days work a few months ago, told social welfare who put her on part time dole, her payments ended up delayed for weeks because of it and she ended up really struggling.

There needs to be another seperate system to the part time dole than the one we have, where someone who maybe gets 'the odd day' here and there can just let them know and get the form stamped and then the day deducted because as it stands if someone got a days work here and there they would have to bring in the form to say they worked 1 day this week and they would be put on the part time dole, then after that they would have to make a new claim and go back on the full time dole, then they get another couple of days another time and it's the same thing all over again, it's not practical and people need the money for food and electricity and the current system of sorting how much money you get is based on people with regular part time work and unfortunately there are a lot of people who may get a little work but it is not regular.

Well I dont know about now but you could a certain amount of hours with out affecting.

Seriously though I know loads of people who write in to SVP they get vouchers for Dunnes, even fuel so nobody is starving.

The dole know if people get offered 1 or two days 2 if they take there dole they just won't take the work.

The whole system needs a big change. GP's etc etc should all be cut and a cap placed. Wages in this country for people in the head of the ESB are way to much.

I was talking if a person was working fulltime and claiming the dole they should get jail not only the person but company for paying cash in hand there should be big fines giving for that not a few thousand Euro.

Chuck Stone · 06-04-2011 3:58am

sollar wrote: »

Anyone convicted of welfare fraud should have the money taken back of them + a fine and live of vouchers until its all paid back.

The vouchers would just become an underground currency and people would take them in payment for smuggled cigarettes, drugs and moonshine (yes moonshine).

Idbatterim · 06-04-2011 11:05am

as no one can condone or seem to support welfare fraud...

I meant politicians mainly by that point, I mean they will object to everything being cut, but I cant see FG saying they want to tackle welfare fraud, and then the likes of Labor or SF actually being able to have any issue with it...

Social Welfare Fraud

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