Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

philologos · 04-04-2011 08:42PM

Nhead wrote: »

Is Quinn actually advocating an Atheistic system or is it just secular?

A pluralist system as far as I'm aware. He's just rebalancing the numbers. More secular schools, less RCC, and I think other denominations to be as is.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 04-04-2011 08:49PM

ISAW wrote: »

the vast majority of people believe in God and claim to belong to that ethos! FACT! THe census IS a valid measurement of that! If and when the census suggests a rise in atheism form say two to three percent there will be atheists here banking on about the valid measurement of the 50 per cent increase in atheists!
Yes there are many people who might not go to Mass but that does not mean they are atheists and believe in no God! there are several independent international surveys which all show atheism at about one or two percent!

So what? People still believe in God and want their children to go to religious schools.

So just because the majority of people believe in God we should ONLY have a Catholic run schools?

What about about Jew's, Muslims etc.? How do we cater for them. Just because you believe in God doesn't mean you are Catholic, you do realise that don't you?

No they don't.FACT!

KeithAFC · 04-04-2011 08:51PM

So just because the majority of people believe in God

I don't think that is really true to be honest.

Nhead · 04-04-2011 08:53PM

Jakkass wrote: »

A pluralist system as far as I'm aware. He's just rebalancing the numbers. More secular schools, less RCC, and I think other denominations to be as is.

Well I think a pluralist system is the best as we need more choice in schools. Irish education has its roots in denominationalism (going back to the 1830s when the state tried to remove religion from the classroom-unsuccesfully). Since that time it has virtually remained the same. Since Archbishop Diarmuid Martin wants to let go of some of the schools (which will ultimately strengthen the church as priests etc can work in the parish) it seems to work well for all.

raymon · 04-04-2011 08:55PM

Putting the church in charge of education is the same as putting Fianna Fail in charge of our economy.

They have both failed , so let's move on from under these two dark sinister periods in our history.

philologos · 04-04-2011 08:57PM

Galwaymother wrote: »

Jakkass, you say that Faith schools do not necessarily, and don't, in Ireland, breed intolerance. I can only talk about my own experience here, as I didn't do sociological research on it, but when I arrived in a small rural area in Ireland, that was the first time in my life I experienced religious intolerance of the rudest type, even by 'friends' and in-laws. And I felt totally rejected, when told I could not be moral, etc...as an atheist.

They don't in the vast majority of cases no. You know this as well as I do.

Schools should be equipped to deal with bullying in any situation. That's a given.

I think it the parents choice to decide whether or not to bring their child to a faith or a secular school and I hope Quinn will do all he can to make it fairer.

Galwaymother wrote: »

Granted, that was in small-town Ireland, and twenty years ago, but these people were young, 'liberal' and 'cool'! As a matter of fact, the older generation, (further away from school's indoctrination maybe?) were more accepting and open-minded.

I have no such experience so I find it difficult to relate to. I went to school both in urban and rural settings, all under Church of Ireland patronage. I then went to a CofI secondary school which was privately run.

I personally have issues with the idea that it is inherently bad to have conservative beliefs about things.

Galwaymother wrote: »

And as a teacher I come across religious intolerance (not the only type btw) regularly. The teens of Galway for example, are not fully enlightened yet, I can tell you!

What do you mean by enlightened? Irreligious, liberal?

hatz7 · 04-04-2011 09:11PM

raymon wrote: »

Putting the church in charge of education is the same as putting Fianna Fail in charge of our economy.
They have both failed , so let's move on from under these two dark sinister periods in our history.

lol, the church has done a tremendous job of educating Irish people through the years, the cheek of you.
Remember when this state was first founded and it couldn't afford to run the schools, the church took up the role.
They are still doing a great job.

your saying that our great and good politicians via the Irish civil service (that wouldn't organize a piss up in a brewery) can provide a better system than what we have now????

Because make no mistake those politicians and esteemed civil servants will have to get involved in any fundamental changes in the system, such as the one mentioned in this thread.

Going by your post, answer that.

better the devil you know

Galwaymother · 04-04-2011 09:13PM

No, that was actually a tongue-in-cheek pun on the Enlightenment period in France when religion started to be examined, and being enlightened about equality, pluralism, etc. The latter is what teens are not, in spite of CSPE classes.

Please don't assume I know Faith schools don't produce (relatively more) religious intolerance, because it is my experience that they do, more than secular schools that I have experienced.

In fairness, you went to CoI schools, which are as a rule more accepting of different Faiths etc. than RCC ones, which is exactly why I sent my children to a CoI primary. And yet they did experience religious intolerance there, to a lesser extent than what would have been the case in a school where everybody was doing the Communion etc.

When I use the term 'liberal', I take it with a pinch of salt, and not in the Economic Liberalism sense, but just in the sense of believing in Equal Rights and being open to others/ other ideas.

You could say I am not Conservative all right, either economically or socially...Should Ireland (continue to) be? That's not for me only to decide, but for all of us voting and discussing these issues.

Fratton Fred · 04-04-2011 09:17PM

hatz7 wrote: »

lol, the church has done a tremendous job of educating Irish people through the years, the cheek of you.
Remember when this state was first founded and it couldn't afford to run the schools, the church took up the role.
They are still doing a great job.

your saying that our great and good politicians via the Irish civil service (that wouldn't organize a piss up in a brewery) can provide a better system than what we have now????

Because make no mistake those politicians and esteemed civil servants will have to get involved in any fundamental changes in the system, such as the one mentioned in this thread.

Going by your post, answer that.

better the devil you know

So it wasn't the church that covered up child abuse for years then?

Great job.

philologos · 04-04-2011 09:23PM

Galwaymother wrote: »

No, that was actually a tongue-in-cheek pun on the Enlightenment period in France when religion started to be examined, and being enlightened about equality, pluralism, etc. The latter is what teens are not, in spite of CSPE classes.

I don't know what basis you have for this, or indeed what standards you are basing this on.

Personally I believe that equality is too contested a subject. One must promote inequality to promote equality. Courts have ruled on some rights being important than others. In turn in defending equality what happens is some rights become more important than others and we are back to square one. What would be a better way of understanding it on a philosophical level would be to say that people should tolerate others when they disagree, because disagreement is inevitable. We can't compel people to agree with how everyone else lives, but we can certainly teach people to give way to others.

This idea of tolerance is why I can believe that atheists are wholly mistaken while giving them way in order to do as they will in spite of my agreement. Tolerance is the beginning of pluralism. However, tolerance doesn't mean saying the agreeable thing it just means having a mindset that allows you to respect people in spite of disagreement.

Galwaymother wrote: »

Please don't assume I know Faith schools don't produce (relatively more) religious intolerance, because it is my experience that they do, more than secular schools that I have experienced.

Every reasonable person knows in the vast majority of cases they don't.

Galwaymother wrote: »

In fairness, you went to CoI schools, which are as a rule more accepting of different Faiths etc. than RCC ones, which is exactly why I sent my children to a CoI primary. And yet they did experience religious intolerance there, to a lesser extent than what would have been the case in a school where everybody was doing the Communion etc.

Intolerance of any form including atheistic is to be frowned upon. Intolerance according to the definition I have given. Disagreement on the other hand is healthy and inevitable.

One cannot say on one hand that religious schools breed intolerance and then on hearing CofI suddenly change ones tune. If you genuinely believe that there should be no faith schools you would be denying these schools their very existence pretty much. It would relegate minorities with schools such as these including Presbyterians, Methodists, Jews and Muslims also.

I have a feeling that you are using "intolerance" to say that some people disagreed with atheism in the class?

Galwaymother wrote: »

When I use the term 'liberal', I take it with a pinch of salt, and not in the Economic Liberalism sense, but just in the sense of believing in Equal Rights and being open to others/ other ideas.

See above about my skepticism in respect to equality.

Galwaymother wrote: »

You could say I am not Conservative all right, either economically or socially...Should Ireland (continue to) be? That's not for me only to decide, but for all of us voting and discussing these issues.

I am a mix. I would be economically liberal. As for morality and faith I wouldn't even use the term conservative, but I believe that these both have a Christian root for me.

ISAW · 04-04-2011 09:29PM

Jakkass wrote: »

A pluralist system as far as I'm aware. He's just rebalancing the numbers. More secular schools, less RCC, and I think other denominations to be as is.

I don't know whether the fact that Quinn Bacik and Gilmore and De Rossa as well I think are atheist have anything to do with it. But Quinn is arguing that the church should lose 50 per cent of Schools for starters. The Church agrees that 98 per cent is too high but I think vacating half of them is a bit much. But the real question is whether Labnour want to remove all funding for all ethos schools and the 50 per cent target ios justy a nominal stopping point.

ISAW · 04-04-2011 09:36PM

DanDan6592 wrote: »

So just because the majority of people believe in God we should ONLY have a Catholic run schools?

WHO suggested that? I think I have stated that around 90 per cent are christian but 98 percent of schools are catholic and that is too high.

What about about Jew's, Muslims etc.?

What about them?

How do we cater for them.

The same way we cater for Christians - by funding Muslim schools! As the state already does! In dublin and Galway. effectively like Catholic schools they are Irish Primary schools in every respect except they stop for a few minutes prayer a few times a day.

Just because you believe in God doesn't mean you are Catholic, you do realise that don't you?

Yes I do and I already referred to both the Church and the state supporting the belief of non Catholics and non believers should enough of them want a school.

No they don't.FACT![/QUOTE]
Yes they DO! It is ther in the census data and other surveys! Read it! Most people want ethos education. If most people were atheist I would be saying that they should have schools which reflect their demand and the state should fund them. Same for Sikhs Hindus Muslims etc. But atheists are a tiny percentage of the population!

Nodin · 04-04-2011 09:41PM

ISAW wrote: »

Please try to keep up. The point raised was about removing any religion from any education systems anywhere and that no state funding of education should be made to anything with any religious connections. .

Thats not "state enforced atheism". Thats a secular school system.

ISAW wrote: »

It is those that push the issue further and try to remove God altogether and enforce atheism that cause the problems. .

We aren't talking about them, we're talking about Ruari Quinn removing the religous element from the schools. That is not "state enforced atheism".

ISAW wrote: »

Just as enforcing only one religion over another causes problems. the church are not in favour of that..

Quelle Suprise.

ISAW wrote: »

About one per cent of the people are atheist. there is a much higher level of Atheists in Rauri Quinn's Party and some I guess are all for the atheist agenda. But there4 are also peopole who are pro religion and anti abortion in the Labour Party I suppose.

I've no idea, nor am I sure its that relevant.

ISAW wrote: »

the vast majority of people believe in God and claim to belong to that ethos! FACT! THe census IS a valid measurement of that! If and when the census suggests a rise in atheism form say two to three percent there will be atheists here banking on about the valid measurement of the 50 per cent increase in atheists! .

Its entirely possible to be catholic and in favour of secularisation. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that there are a number of denominations in the country other than catholicism.

hatz7 wrote:

lol, the church has done a tremendous job of educating Irish people through the years, the cheek of you.
Remember when this state was first founded and it couldn't afford to run the schools, the church took up the role..

And why do you think they did that....?

raymon · 04-04-2011 09:43PM

hatz7 wrote: »

lol, the church has done a tremendous job of educating Irish people through the years, the cheek of you.

We owe the church nothing. The church were infiltrated by perverted bullies and deviants.

In fact the church should sell up their mansions and compensate the victims of abuse properly

Nodin · 04-04-2011 09:46PM

ISAW wrote: »

...................Yes they DO! It is ther in the census data and other surveys! Read it! Most people want ethos education. If most people were atheist I would be saying that they should have schools which reflect their demand and the state should fund them. Same for Sikhs Hindus Muslims etc. But atheists are a tiny percentage of the population!

The census collects data on whether people want "ethos education"?
Could I have a link to those figures please?

hatz7 · 04-04-2011 09:52PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So it wasn't the church that covered up child abuse for years then?

Great job.

Yes, along with politicians, Gardai, the Dail, RTE, They all knew about it. Powerful groups in society sticking together, closing ranks and saying noting is hardly a new concept.
Its a chapter that is there in its history, can't be changed. I would take a broader look at the contribution made by the church in education and say that it has and continues to make a great contribution to education in Ireland.

hatz7 · 04-04-2011 09:58PM

raymon wrote: »

We owe the church nothing. The church were infiltrated by perverted bullies and deviants.

In fact the church should sell up their mansions and compensate the victims of abuse properly

ya because money will make everything alright.

Your saying that the entire contribution by the church to Irish education should be deemed irrelevant because of that chapter?

I don't, I'd like to take a more holistic approach in evaluating the contribution made by the church to this country. And I would conclude that the church has done and continues to do a great job.

kerash · 04-04-2011 09:58PM

hatz7 wrote: »

Yes, along with politicians, Gardai, the Dail, RTE, They all knew about it. Powerful groups in society sticking together, closing ranks and saying noting is hardly a new concept.
Its a chapter that is there in its history, can't be changed. I would take a broader look at the contribution made by the church in education and say that it has and continues to make a great contribution to education in Ireland.

Those who carried out the horrific abuse were members of the catholic church and they are wholly and solely responsible for their evils.

red17 · 04-04-2011 10:09PM

Ruari a confessed non believer first minister out of the blocks with anti-Catholic agenda.Look at the mess of state schools in the U.K. people move house in order to be near Catholic schools

Skrynesaver · 04-04-2011 10:09PM

hatz7 wrote: »

ya because money will make everything alright.

Your saying that the entire contribution by the church to Irish education should be deemed irrelevant because of that chapter?

I don't, I'd like to take a more holistic approach in evaluating the contribution made by the church to this country. And I would conclude that the church has done and continues to do a great job.

The church has indeed done a great job if the objective of the education system is to expose as many people as possible to their fantasy.

However they have actively campaigned against integrated secular education since before the independence of this state and in so doing have contributed to the sectarian divide that still exists in this country.

They have abused their privileged role in the schools to propagate their nonsense sending home anti-divorce pamphlets with children in the past and in general have proved themselves unworthy of the role granted to them.

But that's all just semantics, if you want to bring up your child as a delusional sky fairy worshipper that's you business however you shouldn't be allowed to force other people's children to listen to your legends nor to take them any more seriously than they would Odin or Ra.

Are we a republic or a theocracy?

How should non-Catholic rural citizens be accommodated?

And if your sky fairy is so much better than all the others, why do you need to own the school system for that to be apparent to the next generation?

Lie to you own children in your own home, but leave the rest of us out of it like a good lad.

raymon · 04-04-2011 10:10PM

hatz7 wrote: »

ya because money will make everything alright.

Your saying that the entire contribution by the church to Irish education should be deemed irrelevant because of that chapter?

Perverts abusing kids and the church cover ups, money cant repair the damage the church caused.

What contribution are you referring to ..??...... the beatings or the rapes.

Chuchoter · 04-04-2011 10:13PM

I don't think anyone would really say the CC made no positive contribution to where we are today as a country in terms of education, but that doesn't mean we owe it to them to allow them to be in charge of education forever. The nature of secular schooling in my knowledge is that religion is not taught and you are not allowed to show what religion you are, like in France. Thats not state enforced atheism, thats we are here to learn and thats it. We aren't here to learn about a god that may or may not exist as if he were fact and base our entire ethos around a moral code that only suits x religion.

What people never seem to take into account is that its irrelevant what percentage of the country is Catholic, there are so many groups that are excluded and oppressed by the catholic church that its unfair that they get to run everything. We should have a secular system not because of who is what religion in this country, but because its the right thing to do.

philologos · 04-04-2011 10:22PM

crayolastereo wrote: »

I don't think anyone would really say the CC made no positive contribution to where we are today as a country in terms of education, but that doesn't mean we owe it to them to allow them to be in charge of education forever. The nature of secular schooling in my knowledge is that religion is not taught and you are not allowed to show what religion you are, like in France. Thats not state enforced atheism, thats we are here to learn and thats it. We aren't here to learn about a god that may or may not exist as if he were fact and base our entire ethos around a moral code that only suits x religion.

What people never seem to take into account is that its irrelevant what percentage of the country is Catholic, there are so many groups that are excluded and oppressed by the catholic church that its unfair that they get to run everything. We should have a secular system not because of who is what religion in this country, but because its the right thing to do.

Your entire post is based on the assumption that there are no other faiths with schools in Ireland.

It needn't be secular or faith schools. Why not have both?

France is the worst example I could think of actually. It goes beyond secular, it tells people that they can't express their faith by wearing religious symbols. IMO that's a denial of human rights.

ISAW · 04-04-2011 10:24PM

Nodin wrote: »

Thats not "state enforced atheism". Thats a secular school system.

Along the french or US interpretation.
But irish atheists have an orgasnised campaign to remove religion from society and this education campaign is part of it:
http://www.atheist.ie/campaigns/secular-education-system/

One of the most powerful ways in which religion maintains its hold on society is by teaching children fantastic tales as truth when they are at an intellectually formative age.

they believe that society will be better and more ethical if religion is removed from it.

We aren't talking about them, we're talking about Ruari Quinn removing the religous element from the schools. That is not "state enforced atheism".

It is part of a campaign to remove religion from society. Most people dont want schools to be changed in that way to that extent. Atheists who are maybe two percent of people want schools with an ethos done away with.

Quelle Suprise.

Maybe not for you but others here have suggested I was promoting a single religion should be dominant over others and over non believers when I never suggested such a thing and nor did the church.

I've no idea, nor am I sure its that relevant.

Nor am I buty I am just providing the information. At least ten per cent of Labout TDs are Atheist. Their Senator seems to have dumped any reference to Labour in the Senate election not mentioned in har "what I stand for" part of her web page - but watch how she suddenly becomes all leftie Labour again if she gets elected and takes the Labour Whip! So "what I stand for" seems quite vacuous to me.

Its entirely possible to be catholic and in favour of secularisation.

It is also possible to be a non catholic and be in favour of catholic schools . Or be a catholic and be in favour of Methodist Church of Ireland etc. Schools

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that there are a number of denominations in the country other than catholicism.

You seem to be unaware that I am NOT ignoring it and have commented on it in several replies! Indeed I even supported Muslims or atheists rights to have state supported schools.

And why do you think they did that....?

The Church has been involved in charity work in health and education for thousands of years. What great orders of atheistic teachers or doctors ever existed? whaty schools or hospitals did they build?

p1akuw47h5r3it · 04-04-2011 10:27PM

ISAW wrote: »

WHO suggested that? I think I have stated that around 90 per cent are christian but 98 percent of schools are catholic and that is too high.

Could you show me the post where you say this please.

The same way we cater for Christians - by funding Muslim schools! As the state already does! In dublin and Galway. effectively like Catholic schools they are Irish Primary schools in every respect except they stop for a few minutes prayer a few times a day.

Or we could simply fund Irish schools for everyone to attend, not just people who belong to one religion.

Yes I do and I already referred to both the Church and the state supporting the belief of non Catholics and non believers should enough of them want a school.

Enough of them do, so what is your problem with what Ruairi Quinn is doing?

Yes they DO! It is ther in the census data and other surveys! Read it! Most people want ethos education. If most people were atheist I would be saying that they should have schools which reflect their demand and the state should fund them. Same for Sikhs Hindus Muslims etc. But atheists are a tiny percentage of the population!

No most people don't, hence why Minister Quinn is reducing the amount of Catholic run schools.

And you keep going on about Atheists, what about people who are agnostic, or believe in God just not organised religion (like myself)? WHy should they be forced to send their children to Catholic schools, or be forced to learn the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Chuchoter · 04-04-2011 10:33PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Your entire post is based on the assumption that there are no other faiths with schools in Ireland.

It needn't be secular or faith schools. Why not have both?

France is the worst example I could think of actually. It goes beyond secular, it tells people that they can't express their faith by wearing religious symbols. IMO that's a denial of human rights.

No my post is based on the premise that secular education is fairer and more equal for everyone. Faith is something for your own life, parents should be responsible to teach it to their kids, not schools. If we are to have both faith and secular schools, then we need one of every faith in every town to make it fair.

Dave! · 04-04-2011 10:35PM

ISAW wrote: »

Along the french or US interpretation.
But irish atheists have an orgasnised campaign to remove religion from society and this education campaign is part of it:
http://www.atheist.ie/campaigns/secular-education-system/

they believe that society will be better and more ethical if religion is removed from it.

It is part of a campaign to remove religion from society. Most people dont want schools to be changed in that way to that extent. Atheists who are maybe two percent of people want schools with an ethos done away with.

Maybe not for you but others here have suggested I was promoting a single religion should be dominant over others and over non believers when I never suggested such a thing and nor did the church.

Nor am I buty I am just providing the information. At least ten per cent of Labout TDs are Atheist. Their Senator seems to have dumped any reference to Labour in the Senate election not mentioned in har "what I stand for" part of her web page - but watch how she suddenly becomes all leftie Labour again if she gets elected and takes the Labour Whip! So "what I stand for" seems quite vacuous to me.

It is also possible to be a non catholic and be in favour of catholic schools . Or be a catholic and be in favour of Methodist Church of Ireland etc. Schools

You seem to be unaware that I am NOT ignoring it and have commented on it in several replies! Indeed I even supported Muslims or atheists rights to have state supported schools.

The Church has been involved in charity work in health and education for thousands of years. What great orders of atheistic teachers or doctors ever existed? whaty schools or hospitals did they build?

Ruairi Quinn is not a member of Atheist Ireland. AI are a lobby group just like any other, I'm sure Deputy Quinn shares some of their goals and doesn't share others.

The Minister for Education has expressed a desire to move patronage of schools away from the Catholic Church. AFAIK he hasn't expressed any desire to rid society of religious influence.

Therefore maybe you can stick to the point and stop arguing against a strawman. The United States has a secular school system, yet is one of the most religious societies in the world.

philologos · 04-04-2011 10:36PM

crayolastereo wrote: »

No my post is based on the premise that secular education is fairer and more equal for everyone. Faith is something for your own life, parents should be responsible to teach it to their kids, not schools. If we are to have both faith and secular schools, then we need one of every faith in every town to make it fair.

Do it by demand as it is done already, but rebalance it so that there are more secular schools. It would be more expensive for the State I reckon if they insisted that every public faith school shut down.

It's nonsense to say that it is impossible to provide a diversity of faith schools given demand. There are schools of multiple faiths already operating in the State.

The UK approach seems best to me. Have both.

Nodin · 04-04-2011 10:45PM

ISAW wrote: »

Along the french or US interpretation.
But irish atheists have an orgasnised campaign to remove religion from society and this education campaign is part of it:
http://www.atheist.ie/campaigns/secular-education-system/

Even were that true, which I doubt, thats still not "state enforced atheism".

ISAW wrote: »

It is part of a campaign to remove religion from society.

Wild speculation.

Earlier you stated

Yes they DO! It is ther in the census data and other surveys! Read it! Most people want ethos education. If most people were atheist I would be saying that they should have schools which reflect their demand and the state should fund them. Same for Sikhs Hindus Muslims etc. But atheists are a tiny percentage of the population!

You seem to be saying that the census says that "most people want ethos education". Could you link back to those figures please?

Chuchoter · 04-04-2011 10:45PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Do it by demand as it is done already, but rebalance it so that there are more secular schools. It would be more expensive for the State I reckon if they insisted that every public faith school shut down.

It's nonsense to say that it is impossible to provide a diversity of faith schools given demand. There are schools of multiple faiths already operating in the State.

The UK approach seems best to me. Have both.

So if I lived in a small town and I'm an atheist I'm screwed then? You don't need to shut down all faith schools, you just need to ask them to run them in a more secular way. This isn't about supply and demand anyway, its down to that religious moral codes are generally prejudiced towards certain minorities and have a habit of only telling students information they see fit to tell them. Thats why we have such a crap sex ed and anti-homophobic bullying policies in this country.

Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

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