Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

NTMK · 04-04-2011 06:33PM

ISAW wrote: »

so what? If they are developing countries how do you know their low score (or even if they have a high one) is anything to do with religion and nothing to do with their being a developing economy?

Probably so we should be happy we're near the bottom of the developed countries

I dont have to. Im not the one claiming there should be no State involvement in funding religious ethos education?

so you dont have any then

the Catholic church had an already developed philosophy whioch galileo didn't consider in his "dialogue on two world systems". And hios better work on two new sciences was allowed to be published later on so the church didnt remove him! Hint : One of the postgrads I have devotes a sizeable amount to discussion of this subject.

so they tried him for heresy and put him under house arrest for the rest of his life. I think that is considered removal

Hitler was not a christian didnt act like one and was openly opposed by the RC Church.

then why was the Vatican left alone despite every country near it was occupied and why when Hitler fell did the Vatican help some of Hitler's right hand men flee to south America

anyway i'm out because its like talking to a wall.

efb · 04-04-2011 06:33PM

ISAW wrote: »

Yes before and during the war! Go and learn some history. Catholics were specificalloy targeted by the Nazis.

Is that an order?

My question was where did the RC openly critize hitler during the war? As you had stated.

philologos · 04-04-2011 06:37PM

jahalpin wrote: »

Why is Deputy Quinn so anti-Catholic? and what are Fine Gael's views on this?

He isn't. He's just realising that there are far too many RCC schools in the State and is trying to balance things out. I'm wholly behind this.

NTMK · 04-04-2011 06:38PM

Nhead wrote: »

Did the RCC excommunicate him during the war?

nope

Dirk Gently · 04-04-2011 06:45PM

ISAW wrote: »

Waffle all you want. !

Thats a good one

Dave! · 04-04-2011 06:57PM

So what if X% of people want Catholic schools? I'd say 99% of people want no income tax too. A significant majority supported the Jim Crow laws. Governments shouldn't pander to or appease groups just because the decision would be popular. They get elected to make decisions that are in the best interest of the country, and reforming the education system to reflect a changing Irish society, and to bring the country into the 21st century as far as the church-state relationship goes, is a decision that I support. The Labour party was elected into government while advocating the transfer of patronage away from the Catholic Church.

philologos · 04-04-2011 07:04PM

I don't think its on the cards that all RCC schools will be secular?

Dave! · 04-04-2011 07:07PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think its on the cards that all RCC schools will be secular?

No he's starting with the schools that the church are volunteering to offload.

Not sure what the plan is after that.

Haelium · 04-04-2011 07:11PM

ISAW wrote: »

Whether or not you are disgusted with their mass slaughter won't remove that fact!

What about all the genocide in the bible? Didn't Yaweh drown everybody except for Noah and his family at one stage? I find that fairly disgusting, don't you?

But let's not get into a religious debate. If you want to send your children to a Catholic school you will still be able to do that. But you won't be forced to due to lack of alternatives like many parents.

Galwaymother · 04-04-2011 07:16PM

To answer the fears of some Cassandras about the quality of State Education, I would point out that there are plenty examples of secular states running education systems quite well, and catering to all children within the public sector with a few private/religious schools.
France, with all its diversity and multi-cultural aspects, does a fairly good job still, with problems here and there, of educating its children to an acceptable level, even the thousands who do not even speak French starting school. And one of the main principles there is that public education is secular (as well as truly free)...
It's probably the only way to educate children from different backgrounds, so that there are exposed to the cultural wealth of their country.
My children are in a (CoI) religious school, as it seemed the most 'secular' school within driving distance, and even there they experienced heavy-going religious intolerance, with some other children constantly putting them down for not believing in (a) God or being the odd-one out.
I can't wait for the day when religious instruction will the considered the duty of religious bodies, outside normal educational time.
Even E.T. schools have to teach RE, and that's ok if it's done well and in a very balanced way, but I would prefer more emphasis on (good) Literature, Science, and even P.E., than RE...

Killer Pigeon · 04-04-2011 07:23PM

ISAW, the logic in that reply you gave earlier is so twisted I really don't know where to start.

philologos · 04-04-2011 07:24PM

The problem isn't with the State education system Galwaymother. I think it is fair that there should be choice for parents in respect to this issue, if people want to bring their children to a RCC school that's their choice as it is to bring them to a secular school IMO. I don't think people should impose their choice on parents in respect to this.

Galwaymother · 04-04-2011 07:45PM

Jakkass, do you not think that segregating children according to their parents' religious views is dangerous and militates against real openness and tolerance?

Is that not why ET schools were launched in Northern Ireland? We can try to teach children about equality and all of these things, but if they're never sitting at the same desks or playing in the same schoolyards, they do end up having a very sectarian and segregated view of society.

This is one of the reasons why I believe public secular education is necessary in modern societies, with a choice of private, religious schools for parents who are opposed to it. Of course we wouldn't impose that system either.

Nodin · 04-04-2011 07:47PM

ISAW wrote: »

....................
Waffle all you want. Enforced State atheism was CENTRAL to Stalin's and Mao's and Pol Pot's regimes.

Stalin enforced atheism so did Mao et al. Whether or not you are disgusted with their mass slaughter won't remove that fact!

....just as a matter of interest, would you mind explaining to me where Ruari Quinn has argued for "enforced state atheism"?

ISAW · 04-04-2011 07:50PM

NTMK wrote: »

Probably so we should be happy we're near the bottom of the developed countries

that is a red herring. whether or not we should be happy about academic standards has nothing to do with whether having an atheistic school system is preferable to having religious ethos in schools.

so you dont have any then

I don't have any support for a claim other people are making and for which I have provided counter evidence? - no

so they tried him for heresy and put him under house arrest for the rest of his life. I think that is considered removal

No they didnt. the tried him for suspicion of a minor heresy. The "house arrest" they put him under was when he was in his seventies and not likely to travel. the "house" was a vast Estate! And the daily penance was commuted to his daughter. A bit like retiring to Kinsealey with a State pension.

And his best work "Two new sciences" was written during that "put away" time
http://www.archive.org/details/dialoguesconcern00galiuoft

then why was the Vatican left alone despite every country near it was occupied

Italy was not occupied by the Nazis and Italy made the Vatican independent! Switzerland also was not invaded! No doubt when Hitler finished with teh jews and gypsies he would have gotten rid of Christians and other religions.

Certainly Catholic Clerics were saving Jews from the holocaust and Nazis eventually targeted such clerics and wanted them dead.

and why when Hitler fell did the Vatican help some of Hitler's right hand men flee to south America

Which right hand men were "helped" by the Vatican. In fact a Kerry priest was targeted by the head Nazi in Berlin and after the war he eventually converted to Christianity and the priest met with him and assisted his escape from hospital to return to Germany to die in the 1970s I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty

You may not be aware Pope Pius XI issuied about 29 encyclicals all but one of which critisized the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XI#Mit_Brennender_Sorge

Pius XI responded to ever increasing Nazi hostility to Christianity by issuing in 1937 the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge condemning the Nazi ideology of racism and totalitarianism and Nazi violations of the concordat. Copies had to be smuggled into Germany so they could be read from the pulpit[10] The encyclical, the only one ever written in German, was addressed to German bishops and was read in all parishes of Germany. The actual writing of the text is credited to Munich Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber and to the Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli, who later became Pope Pius XII.[11] There was no advance announcement of the encyclical, and its distribution was kept secret in an attempt to ensure the unhindered public reading of its contents in all the Catholic Churches of Germany.

anyway i'm out because its like talking to a wall.

Run away if you want but you wont change the past no matter how much you want to rewrite history. Pol Pot's atheistic regime tried to do just that.

philologos · 04-04-2011 07:53PM

Galwaymother wrote: »

Jakkass, do you not think that segregating children according to their parents' religious views is dangerous and militates against real openness and tolerance?

I wasn't segregated. I went to school with people of differing backgrounds in terms of faith yet it was a faith school.

Galwaymother wrote: »

Is that not why ET schools were launched in Northern Ireland? We can try to teach children about equality and all of these things, but if they're never sitting at the same desks or playing in the same schoolyards, they do end up having a very sectarian and segregated view of society.

I think that they are a good thing, but at the same time I don't believe faith schools are harmful in practice in the Republic. In fact I think that my education was good. I didn't appreciate the faith element of it until I explored Christianity for myself by reading the Bible. I got to use the R.E class particularly in my last 2 years to pry further into the subject of faith (all faiths were taught).

I find this idea that I should be intolerant because I went to a faith school to be insane. If faith schools breed hatred, where is the hatred as far as I'm concerned? Or is it that certain environments in general are bad and others are good. Faith schools don't breed hatred unless there are other factors that would breed such hatred in the overall society.

I think most rational people know that this is true. You know it as well I suspect. If it weren't Irish people would be foaming at the mouth with hatred because they went to faith schools.

Galwaymother wrote: »

This is one of the reasons why I believe public secular education is necessary in modern societies, with a choice of private, religious schools for parents who are opposed to it. Of course we wouldn't impose that system either.

Great, others believe differently to you. I don't see why if everyone in society pays tax that this can't be used for funding a pluralist school system (faith and secular schools) in a similar way to what is done in Britain.

ISAW · 04-04-2011 08:01PM

Nodin wrote: »

....just as a matter of interest, would you mind explaining to me where Ruari Quinn has argued for "enforced state atheism"?

Please try to keep up. The point raised was about removing any religion from any education systems anywhere and that no state funding of education should be made to anything with any religious connections. The basis for this is the history of the US constitution. Founding fathers noted the religious divisions at the time and so did not want America to side with Catholic or Protestants and also to tolerate non believers. That is how the no funding of religion came about. Earlier State constitutions predating the US one ( Maine and or Vermont I think are examples ) actually were very pro religion. In Ireland the views of parents and right to get funded by the State are constitutional rights even if the School is of a religious ethos. But "Educate together " also has a right if they have a school. and an "educate together" school may opt to have religion or may opt to rule out any religion. Most people don't want that however.

It is those that push the issue further and try to remove God altogether and enforce atheism that cause the problems. Just as enforcing only one religion over another causes problems. the church are not in favour of that. About one per cent of the people are atheist. there is a much higher level of Atheists in Rauri Quinn's Party and some I guess are all for the atheist agenda. But there4 are also peopole who are pro religion and anti abortion in the Labour Party I suppose.

ISAW · 04-04-2011 08:02PM

Jakkass wrote: »

He isn't. He's just realising that there are far too many RCC schools in the State and is trying to balance things out. I'm wholly behind this.

so is the Church. and they were before he got elected!

philologos · 04-04-2011 08:03PM

Nhead wrote: »

Hitler tried to rewrite history, too was he Christian? Wasn't the third reich a continuation of the first reich (the Roman Empire which of course converted to christianity) and the Second Reich (The Holy Roman Empire). At least some of the Nazi ideology was connected to the Bible.

Look here. Particularly at his private statements:

In 1941, Hitler praised an anti-Christian tract from AD 362, neo-platonist and pagan Roman emperor Julian the Apostate's Against the Galileans, saying "I really hadn't known how clearly a man like Julian had judged Christians and Christianity, one must read this...."

Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939 a conversation in which Hitler had "expressed his revulsion against Christianity. He wished that the time were ripe for him to be able to openly express that. Christianity had corrupted and infected the entire world of antiquity."

n 1998 documents were released by Cornell University from the Nuremberg Trials, that revealed Nazi plans to eliminate Christianity entirely. One senior member of the U.S. prosecution team, General William Donovan, as part of his work on documenting Nazi war crimes, compiled large amounts of documentation that the Nazis persecuted Christian Churches.

Yes at other times he did praise Christianity, but it seems only as a rhetorical tool.

It would be best if we could focus on education though.

ISAW · 04-04-2011 08:04PM

clown bag wrote: »

Thats a good one

Deal with the issue. the census is a valid survey no matter what waffle you supply about what pals or people's mothers might put down.

southsiderosie · 04-04-2011 08:11PM

irishconvert wrote: »

Yup, but it doesn't matter what your opinion is about their decision. The majority of the people in this country say they are Catholic, therefore it is a Catholic country.

The majority of Americans identify as Christian, yet there is strict separation of church and state, and the vast majority of American children go to (secular) public schools.

Most Catholics in the US and Europe may be "culturally Catholic" in that the 'big' life events are still held in the church and children get some Catholic education, but there is no state religion. Spain and Italy are "Catholic" countries, but the number of practicing Catholics is quite low.

The proof is in the pudding: ask any archbishop about church attendance today versus 30 years ago and see what they say. Immigration is the best thing that has happened to many Dublin parishes in the last 20 years.

pocketvenus wrote: »

Catholic schools in both the UK & US both rate as the best schools in the country and are among the top schools in league tables. I have asked them their experiences as my cousins attend Catholic schools and they told me - better teachers, better facilites even with being taught 2.5 hours of religion a week, students still achieve high marks etc. In the US entrance in Catholics schools is a find out you are pregnant put the baby down on a list.

This is somewhat inaccurate - it really depends on the district. Many parents send their children to Catholic schools because they are seen as enforcing stricter discipline, safer, and allow for more parental input. However, when you control for parental income, the performance of Catholic schools doesn't really stand out in the US: the most important factor in the performance of students is family income, not the type of school they went to. And Catholic schools, particularly those that aren't in large urban areas, can be choosy about their students and charge as much tuition as they like.

philologos · 04-04-2011 08:12PM

Nhead wrote: »

It would it was just that when Pol Pot, Lenin et al are being brought into the discussion of what is wrong with education there must be balance?(I'd assume I'm new to boards???) Yes Hitler used the rhetoric of Christianity but you could say the same of Stalin et al. I'm sorry if I'm missing the point but I thought the discussion had strayed off the original point when communism was being brought in pages ago.

What do either have to do with education?

Simply put, there is evidence of Hitler disagreeing strongly with Christianity. I don't know what the evidence of Stalin agreeing with Christianity is but it seems slim at best.

ISAW · 04-04-2011 08:24PM

Nhead wrote: »

It would it was just that when Pol Pot, Lenin et al are being brought into the discussion of what is wrong with education there must be balance?(I'd assume I'm new to boards???) Yes Hitler used the rhetoric of Christianity but you could say the same of Stalin et al. with regards atheism I'm sorry if I'm missing the point but I thought the discussion had strayed off the original point when communism was being brought in pages ago.

Maybe you missed the point

A: Schools are 90 percent run by the church. Ethos schools should not be funded and we should start by moving to only funding 50 per cent of the religious ones and giving the rest of them over to non religious mamagement.
B: But 95 per cent of people are religious believers and want ethos schools.
A: What do you mean 95 percent
B: here look at the census
A: the census isnt reliable or representative [of course it weill be if there is an increase in atheism in the current census results

] Her is a smaller survey saying 85 per cent not 95!
B:Fair enough but that is about Catholics. The Choirch accept 98 per cent of schools is high. 85 might be fair. But 50 is silly.
A: The number should be ZERO! In fact churches are empty and most people are not interested in religion anyway.
B: So we should have no involvment of religion at all? Anyone who toired that contributed nothing to civilization. Indeed Atheistic regimes caused untold death and destruction.
A: They were nt atheistic they were authoritarian or communist.
B: Nope they were atheistic because the church was authoritarian and didnt kill a fraction in comparison and there are also examples of non atheistic communists and religious communists and non authoritarian communists all of which dint kill anythinf like the atheistic ones which were both communist and non communist.

See how the point got to that?

p1akuw47h5r3it · 04-04-2011 08:25PM

ISAW wrote: »

The vast majority of irish people are christian and the vast majority of them Roman Catholic. A tiny percentage is atheist!

I disagree.

Saying your Catholic (for example in the Census) and actually practicing the religious teachings of the Catholic Church are two very different things. The majority of people my age (I'm 19) arent religious, let alone Catholic. The only reason I made my confirmation, communion etc. is because I went to a Catholic run school.

I believe many people belonging to my mams' generation (she is in her 40's) are no longer Catholic, but simply say they are as they were brought up to do so.

ISAW · 04-04-2011 08:32PM

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I disagree.

Saying your Catholic (for example in the Census) and actually practicing the religious teachings of the Catholic Church are two very different things. The majority of people my age (I'm 19) arent religious, let alone Catholic. The only reason I made my confirmation, communion etc. is because I went to a Catholic run school.

the vast majority of people believe in God and claim to belong to that ethos! FACT! THe census IS a valid measurement of that! If and when the census suggests a rise in atheism form say two to three percent there will be atheists here banking on about the valid measurement of the 50 per cent increase in atheists!
Yes there are many people who might not go to Mass but that does not mean they are atheists and believe in no God! there are several independent international surveys which all show atheism at about one or two percent!

I believe many people belonging to my mams' generation (she is in her 40's) are no longer Catholic, but simply say they are as they were brought up to do so.

So what? People still believe in God and want their children to go to religious schools.

Dave! · 04-04-2011 08:35PM

ISAW wrote: »

Maybe you missed the point

A: Schools are 90 percent run by the church. Ethos schools should not be funded and we should start by moving to only funding 50 per cent of the religious ones and giving the rest of them over to non religious mamagement.
B: But 95 per cent of people are religious believers and want ethos schools.
A: What do you mean 95 percent
B: here look at the census
A: the census isnt reliable or representative [of course it weill be if there is an increase in atheism in the current census results ] Her is a smaller survey saying 85 per cent not 95!
B:Fair enough but that is about Catholics. The Choirch accept 98 per cent of schools is high. 85 might be fair. But 50 is silly.
A: The number should be ZERO! In fact churches are empty and most people are not interested in religion anyway.
B: So we should have no involvment of religion at all? Anyone who toired that contributed nothing to civilization. Indeed Atheistic regimes caused untold death and destruction.
A: They were nt atheistic they were authoritarian or communist.
B: Nope they were atheistic because the church was authoritarian and didnt kill a fraction in comparison and there are also examples of non atheistic communists and religious communists and non authoritarian communists all of which dint kill anythinf like the atheistic ones which were both communist and non communist.

See how the point got to that?

Yeah I see how you went from having a normal, modern secular school system to state-enforced atheism....... not sure what it has to do with the topic though.

Is there someone here advocating banning of religious expression? Or are they simply arguing for a secular education system?

philologos · 04-04-2011 08:38PM

I think the Gallup poll is a good indication as well: In Ireland 42% of people believed that religion wasn't important. This doesn't mean that they are atheists, but it is a good measure of general apathy and irreligion.

Nhead · 04-04-2011 08:41PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I think the Gallup poll is a good indication as well: In Ireland 42% of people believed that religion wasn't important. This doesn't mean that they are atheists, but it is a good measure of general apathy and irreligion.

Is Quinn actually advocating an Atheistic system or is it just secular?

Dirk Gently · 04-04-2011 08:42PM

ISAW wrote: »

want their children to go to religious schools.

There's a question I'd love to see on the census.

Galwaymother · 04-04-2011 08:42PM

Jakkass, you say that Faith schools do not necessarily, and don't, in Ireland, breed intolerance. I can only talk about my own experience here, as I didn't do sociological research on it, but when I arrived in a small rural area in Ireland, that was the first time in my life I experienced religious intolerance of the rudest type, even by 'friends' and in-laws. And I felt totally rejected, when told I could not be moral, etc...as an atheist.

Granted, that was in small-town Ireland, and twenty years ago, but these people were young, 'liberal' and 'cool'! As a matter of fact, the older generation, (further away from school's indoctrination maybe?) were more accepting and open-minded.

And as a teacher I come across religious intolerance (not the only type btw) regularly. The teens of Galway for example, are not fully enlightened yet, I can tell you!

Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

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