Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

jahalpin

Ever since he was apponted Minister for Education, Ruairi Quinn has been doing everything possible to undermine the Catholic church in Ireland

The vast majority of the population of this country are Catholic and most of these would want their children to have First Communion and Confirmation in school.

There are several primary and secondary schools in the country under the partonage of the Church of Ireland, however, he doesn't seem to be going after these in any way, this doesn't seem fair

Why is Deputy Quinn so anti-Catholic? and what are Fine Gael's views on this?

rockmongrel

Because we live in what should be a secular country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jahalpin wrote: »

Ever since he was apponted Minister for Education, Ruairi Quinn has been doing everything possible to undermine the Catholic church in Ireland

The vast majority of the population of this country are Catholic and most of these would want their children to have First Communion and Confirmation in school.

There are several primary and secondary schools in the country under the partonage of the Church of Ireland, however, he doesn't seem to be going after these in any way, this doesn't seem fair

Why is Deputy Quinn so anti-Catholic? and what are Fine Gael's views on this?

Why are you asking loaded questions?

I think you'll find that Ireland is now a multi-cultural society and there are enough parents who do NOT want to see their children rasied in a Catholic envieronment to make more options a neccesity.

Deputy Quinn's stance as minister for education merely refelects that.

Also, as taxpayers, surely non-catholic parents should have a say as to whether or not their local school accepts their kids regardless of whether they have or not been baptised?

bitter

I commend Quinn for standing up to the CC...

Ickle Magoo

Perhaps he's embarrassed that ireland still has an education system that contravenes the charter on human rights?

Or perhaps he wants to reduce the chances of any more hastily flung up port-o-cabins for colours kids that are refused places in their local schools...

Or it could be that every census is showing a fall in catholics (80 odd percent at the last count and far fewer practicing) and yet the RCC hold 92% of the schools...

It could even be he just disagrees with little kids being legally discriminated in state paid education based on their parents faith and the general lack of willingness to take responsibility for their off-springs spiritual guidance if it happens to rob them of a lie-in.

copacetic

jahalpin wrote: »

There are several primary and secondary schools in the country under the partonage of the Church of Ireland, however, he doesn't seem to be going after these in any way, this doesn't seem fair?

when there are 'several' catholic run schools left too, maybe that would be 'fair'?

gman2k

jahalpin wrote: »

Ever since he was apponted Minister for Education,.....

Note: He has been appointed as Minister of Education, not Minister for Roman Catholic Education.

Let me ask you a question; Why should a foreign entity such as the Vatican have a say in running Irish schools? The Vatican has proved via the Ryan report that it has no respect for the organs of this state that requested information.
Another question; Do you think it is right that someone should deny a place in a Irish school to an Irish child, just because that child's parents has a different view on how the universe came into being?

It's about time we had a minister that has a pair.
I may not agree with everything that the Labour Party is about, but I fully support Quinns stance.,

PeterIanStaker

I applaud Ruarí Quinn for taking this stance, and I hope he curtails the influence of the Catholic church, which is a backward and corrupt organisation, that has had a stranglehold on this state and its people for far too long now.

sdanseo

Well done Ruairí. Finally a minister with a positive stance rather than Mary "faffing about" Hanafin. Can't wait for him to start ousting the bent priests, too.

jhalpin, please allow me to dismember your post. Savagely.

jahalpin wrote: »

Ever since he was apponted Minister for Education, Ruairi Quinn has been doing everything possible to undermine the Catholic church in Ireland

Probably because the Catholic church has proven that it should not be left in charge of a cat let alone 90% of the country's children.

jahalpin wrote: »

The vast majority of the population of this country are Catholic and most of these would want their children to have First Communion and Confirmation in school.

The sooner the patronage they hold over schools is abolished the better. This idea of ramming religion down people's throats is bad enough but when you factor in the fact that 90% of the kids will end up agnostic like the rest of us anyway, what the hell is the point any more? The church is living in its own little dream world in this regard.

As for "most" people actually wanting their kids to have communion and confirmation - taht's because it's the done thing. It's like an armchair religion, we'll do all the fun stuff but no need to bother with mass every week. Either be religious or don't. I would hazard a guess that in fact most parents are either against the process but go along with it, or are totally indifferent to the actual religious values of these ceremonies.

jahalpin wrote: »

There are several primary and secondary schools in the country under the partonage of the Church of Ireland, however, he doesn't seem to be going after these in any way, this doesn't seem fair

The Church of Ireland doesn't have a history of molesting the kids in its care and moreover if a parent specifically wants their child to be educated in a CoI school, they will send them there. The Catholic schools are the only choice for most parents, however. They simply have no alternative. This is wrong.

jahalpin wrote: »

Why is Deputy Quinn so anti-Catholic? and what are Fine Gael's views on this?

Minister Quinn, not deputy.

Einhard

jahalpin wrote: »

Ever since he was apponted Minister for Education, Ruairi Quinn has been doing everything possible to undermine the Catholic church in Ireland

The vast majority of the population of this country are Catholic and most of these would want their children to have First Communion and Confirmation in school.

There are several primary and secondary schools in the country under the partonage of the Church of Ireland, however, he doesn't seem to be going after these in any way, this doesn't seem fair

Why is Deputy Quinn so anti-Catholic? and what are Fine Gael's views on this?

Ruari Quinn is continuing an initiative initiated by the last government, one that has the full support of the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland. Indeed, in the past week, Diarmuid Martin stated that this move would boost the status of the Church, and protect and strengthen the ethos in remaining Catholic schools. And the programme being proposed covers schools of all denominations, including CofI. I'm not sure you know what you're talking about really.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Think this is going to be one of those threads where the OP doesn't come back...

ISAW

rockmongrel wrote: »

Because we live in what should be a secular country.

Well you might wait for the census but I think you will find we live in a country were 95 per cent plus of the occupants are religious believers. Where do you get off dictating to people what they should believe?

p1akuw47h5r3it

The majority of people say they are Catholic because it is seen as the "done thing" almost.

How many of these people actually follow Catholic religious teachings, well, is very very small.

I think Quinn is right in what he is doing.

Zaph

jahalpin wrote: »

The vast majority of the population of this country are Catholic and most of these would want their children to have First Communion and Confirmation in school.

Far too much time in primary school is taken up preparing for communion and confirmation. This is time that would be better spent educating our children so that we might have a chance of halting the seemingly inexorable rise in illiteracy and innumeracy that we're heading towards. It's shocking how poor the language and numerical skills of some people I've interviewed for jobs are, and this needs to be addressed at the earliest stages of the education system or it will only get worse. If parents want their kids to make their communions and confirmations so badly then preparation should be done out of school hours. Then we'll see how many actual Catholics there are in the country.

Einhard

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Think this is going to be one of those threads where the OP doesn't come back...

That's what they said about Jesus and look what happened...

DUB777

Probably because of what happened to so many poor kids all those years ago in the likes of Golden Gate orphanage, the christian brothers schools. All those dirty Fr Brenden Smith b@st@rds out there who've destroyed lives. Far too much of that went on & the public needs to tone the Church down a notch or 20. They had way to much power and sway in the past & look what they did, abused their power literally. I dont mean to be tarring all priests with the one brush[there are some great ones out there, Fr Brian Gough/ Fr Harry Gaynor was a top man, mass was never dull when he was saying it.] but there are reports of incidents being reported & they were buried by the higher authorities. They need to pay the price for what went on. Those kids abused can't shut out what happened to them, they've to carry the can for the rest of their lives, the ones that didn't kill themselves. Quinn is a stern, strong and direct man & he is right.

hatz7

Generally agree with secularism, but 1 point keeps preventing me from having a firm view in favor of it. Catholic schools are really good. Like the world over including here, Catholic schools do education really well. Credit where it is due.

Now the Irish state doesn't do anything well. anything, like right now as I'm typing I'm trying to think of something................am..we have a nice SWelfare system, credit where it is due and all that.

How many kids die in state care? I heard an official number was 20, but in the papers they said it could of been 200 in 10 years.

My fear is that if the state steps in, standards will drop.
The numbers argument isn't really all that strong either. the country is still 90ish% catholic, so why he wants 50%C schools 50% secular doesn't make sense.

Now if I haven't made my point well, I'll try say it like this.

The debate is between Catholic run schools and Secularism.
I think the debate should be about Catholic run schools and what our Irish state can provide.

KerranJast

Tbf Diarmuid Martin has said on numerous occasions that the Church can't continue to run so many schools. They're losing huge numbers of priests and not getting replacements so are having to rely more and more on lay people to run the schools.

Einhard

hatz7 wrote: »

Generally agree with secularism, but 1 point keeps preventing me from having a firm view in favor of it. Catholic schools are really good. Like the world over including here, Catholic schools do education really well. Credit where it is due.

Now the Irish state doesn't do anything well. anything, like right now as I'm typing I'm trying to think of something................am..we have a nice SWelfare system, credit where it is due and all that.

How many kids die in state care? I heard an official number was 20, but in the papers they said it could of been 200 in 10 years.

My fear is that if the state steps in, standards will drop.
The numbers argument isn't really all that strong either. the country is still 90ish% catholic, so why he wants 50%C schools 50% secular doesn't make sense.

Now if I haven't made my point well, I'll try say it like this.

The debate is between Catholic run schools and Secularism.
I think the debate should be about Catholic run schools and what our Irish state can provide.

Standards haven't dropped in Gaelscoileanna, or in EducateTogether schools. And the Irish state, contrary to popular opinion, does many things well.

DUB777

Einhard wrote: »

Standards haven't dropped in Gaelscoileanna, or in EducateTogether schools. And the Irish state, contrary to popular opinion, does many things well.

Here's a short list of what I could think of things we 'did well'

We build leaking port tunnels that cant take super trucks
We build a national convention center with insufficient sewage system
We give away our oil
We give away our gas
We lock everybody else up for the stupidest things like not paying fines, or having a dog licence
Yet the B@5t@rds who've got the country in the mess its in robbing the tax payer left right and center are still being chauffeur driven around by retired garda.
Sean fitzpatrick is still strolling around/Gannon/Liam Carroll/Paddy & Simon Kelly in their "wives estates" while the tax payer is picking up the tab for them.
We lock joe soap up for growing a couple of plants yet "GARDA" FINBARR HICKEY gets away with growing 70 odd plants.Has vegging, flowering & drying plants:S:S
The M50 took nearly 30 years to complete from one side of a COUNTY to another.
We build a multi million euro peat burning station that doesn't work after a couple of months in action. The workers all get paid while off work:S
We elect a "Taoiseach" who didn't know he needed to open a bank account:S:S
We let that idiot taoiseach appoint a blundering BIFFO as our new taoiseach.
*Voting machines another cock-up
"On 6 October 2010, the Taoiseach Brian Cowen said that the 7,000 machines would not be used for voting and would be disposed of.[10] As of October 2010, the total cost of the electronic voting project has reached €54.6 million, including €3 million spent on storing the machines over the previous five years"
We are the jesters of the E.C. Global entertainment.

ISAW

bitter wrote: »

I commend Quinn for standing up to the CC...

You are displaying your ignorance. The Catholic church was proactive in this and suggested teh action long before the present government.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why are you asking loaded questions?

In what way are they loaded?

I think you'll find that Ireland is now a multi-cultural society and there are enough parents who do NOT want to see their children rasied in a Catholic envieronment to make more options a neccesity.

I think you will find that Ireland is not an atheistic country and that about one to three per cent of people are atheist. I thou you will find no atheistic society ever that contributed anything of merit to the world short of mass genocide. I think you will find the constitution supports the right of people to have an education which respects a religious ethos and also supports the right not to have a religious ethos which in fact the Catholic church also supports and have endeavored to assist non Catholics in setting up schools.

Deputy Quinn's stance as minister for education merely refelects that.

REflects what? That he is atheist and atheists have right to non religious schools? Of course they do. and the Catholic church is helping them out in that regard.

Also, as taxpayers, surely non-catholic parents should have a say as to whether or not their local school accepts their kids regardless of whether they have or not been baptised?

Indeed they can remove them from such schools and educate them at home or they can ask for a non denominational school. Very few people do ask for this but the state and the Church will help them out when there are sufficient numbers.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Perhaps he's embarrassed that ireland still has an education system that contravenes the charter on human rights?

How does the Irish education system contravene any such charter?

Or perhaps he wants to reduce the chances of any more hastily flung up port-o-cabins for colours kids that are refused places in their local schools...

so you are suggesting that Catholic schools are refusing people because of skin colour and that Rauri Quinn is highlighting the Catholic Church as a racist organisation???

Or it could be that every census is showing a fall in catholics (80 odd percent at the last count and far fewer practicing) and yet the RCC hold 92% of the schools...

Sources?

How do you know that more than 80 per cent of primary school children are not religious?

It could even be he just disagrees with little kids being legally discriminated in state paid education based on their parents faith and the general lack of willingness to take responsibility for their off-springs spiritual guidance if it happens to rob them of a lie-in.

So you believe Catholics are just lazy? Who was it above who was attacking race discrimination? And her we have the same blanket generalisations used against Catholics!

gman2k wrote: »

Note: He has been appointed as Minister of Education, not Minister for Roman Catholic Education.

So what? The vast majority of education is Roman Catholic ethos.

Let me ask you a question; Why should a foreign entity such as the Vatican have a say in running Irish schools?

It isn't a foreign entity! And the vatican does not tell Ireland how to manage schools. The Holy See relates to most people in Ireland. Most people are Catholics - and I mean the vast majority are so they are entitled to a say. Why sould a foreign Union the NUJ have a say in Ireland and the running of Irish newspapers? Wjhy should a foreigh entity like the IMF or the EU have a say in running our banks? Or foreign courts have a say in our human rights legislation? Or a foreign entity tell Irish people how to run their Cricket, soccer, cycling etc. ?

The Vatican has proved via the Ryan report that it has no respect for the organs of this state that requested information.

1. How so?
2. What has it to do with the management of schools?

Another question; Do you think it is right that someone should deny a place in a Irish school to an Irish child, just because that child's parents has a different view on how the universe came into being?

I think if you have a school your school board can decide who they allow attend. Let me ask you Do you think a holocaust denier should be allowed attend a school and demand their views be accepted?

It's about time we had a minister that has a pair.
I may not agree with everything that the Labour Party is about, but I fully support Quinns stance.,

Ignorant comment! The Church years ago asked for the State to do this! You are presenting it as if the Church attacked him and he came into office and sorted them out by challenging them.

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

I applaud Ruarí Quinn for taking this stance, and I hope he curtails the influence of the Catholic church, which is a backward and corrupt organisation, that has had a stranglehold on this state and its people for far too long now.

The Church years ago asked for the State to do this! You are presenting it as if the Church attacked him and he came into office and sorted them out by challenging them.
Your "backward and corrupt" comment is better suited to the atheistic communist regimes.

sdonn wrote: »

Well done Ruairí. ... Can't wait for him to start ousting the bent priests, too.

What do you mean "bent priests"?

Probably because the Catholic church has proven that it should not be left in charge of a cat let alone 90% of the country's children.

How has the church done that? You are aware that most abuse is non church and clergy account for about one percent of abusers?

The sooner the patronage they hold over schools is abolished the better. This idea of ramming religion down people's throats is bad enough but when you factor in the fact that 90% of the kids will end up agnostic like the rest of us anyway

What an ignorant comment? wher is your evidence 90 per cent of Ireland is atheistic or agnostic? Even in the US it is a tiny percentage.

, what the hell is the point any more? The church is living in its own little dream world in this regard.

You are living in a "90 per cent agnostic" dream!

As for "most" people actually wanting their kids to have communion and confirmation - taht's because it's the done thing. It's like an armchair religion, we'll do all the fun stuff but no need to bother with mass every week.

Yeah I suppose under your atheistic communism having no god would be the done thing?
We had that and hundreds of millions died because of it.

Either be religious or don't. I would hazard a guess that in fact most parents are either against the process but go along with it, or are totally indifferent to the actual religious values of these ceremonies.

Oh so you informed view is based on - a guess?

The Church of Ireland doesn't have a history of molesting the kids in its care and moreover if a parent specifically wants their child to be educated in a CoI school, they will send them there. The Catholic schools are the only choice for most parents, however. They simply have no alternative. This is wrong.

What is wrong is your unsupported assumption that clergy are more then a tiny percent of abusers and that Catholic clergy even a smaller percent. You claim most abusers are clergy when in fact 95 per cent plus are non clergy.

Here is a US report: http://www.usccb.org/nrb/nrbstudy/nrbreport.htm#johnjay

Just in relation to roman Catholics in the US . Non clergy and not cCatholic have a higher level of abusers.

Church records indicate that 4,392 priests were accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002.11 This number represents four percent of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time. There were approximately 10,667 reported minor victims of clergy sexual abuse during this period, and the Church expended more than half a billion dollars in dealing with the problem.

Three percent had ten or more allegations levied against them; these 149 priests with ten or more reported allegations were responsible for almost 3,000 victims, or twenty-seven percent of the allegations.

That's 149 priests in 110,000!

there are similar examples in Ireland. How many child sexual abusers from 1950-2000? How many were clergy? a tiny fraction!

TheReverend

ISAW stop trolling

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

hatz7 wrote: »

Generally agree with secularism, but 1 point keeps preventing me from having a firm view in favor of it. Catholic schools are really good. Like the world over including here, Catholic schools do education really well. Credit where it is due.

Now the Irish state doesn't do anything well. anything, like right now as I'm typing I'm trying to think of something................am..we have a nice SWelfare system, credit where it is due and all that.

How many kids die in state care? I heard an official number was 20, but in the papers they said it could of been 200 in 10 years.

My fear is that if the state steps in, standards will drop.
The numbers argument isn't really all that strong either. the country is still 90ish% catholic, so why he wants 50%C schools 50% secular doesn't make sense.

Now if I haven't made my point well, I'll try say it like this.

The debate is between Catholic run schools and Secularism.
I think the debate should be about Catholic run schools and what our Irish state can provide.

How do you know that the education the Irish state provides would be in any way inferior to what the church provides?

I see your point, but there is no reason to believe that standards will drop if the state steps in. Most of the teachers will stay the same, the syllabus will mostly stay the same.

Perhaps it would be better if you stated what, specifically, the church does to improve the standard of education, that you feel the state would not be able to do?

NTMK

jahalpin wrote: »

Ever since he was apponted Minister for Education, Ruairi Quinn has been doing everything possible to undermine the Catholic church in Ireland

The vast majority of the population of this country are Catholic and most of these would want their children to have First Communion and Confirmation in school.

There are several primary and secondary schools in the country under the partonage of the Church of Ireland, however, he doesn't seem to be going after these in any way, this doesn't seem fair

Why is Deputy Quinn so anti-Catholic? and what are Fine Gael's views on this?

Its not the schools job to teach kids religion that's the churches and parents job. Quinn wants to end the ridiculous discrimination that goes on in state schools by removing the catholic church from power and its about time

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ISAW wrote: »

In what way are they loaded?

Thread title.

I think you will find that Ireland is not an atheistic country and that about one to three per cent of people are atheist. I thou you will find no atheistic society ever that contributed anything of merit to the world short of mass genocide. I think you will find the constitution supports the right of people to have an education which respects a religious ethos and also supports the right not to have a religious ethos which in fact the Catholic church also supports and have endeavored to assist non Catholics in setting up schools.



REflects what? That he is atheist and atheists have right to non religious schools? Of course they do. and the Catholic church is helping them out in that regard.




Indeed they can remove them from such schools and educate them at home or they can ask for a non denominational school. Very few people do ask for this but the state and the Church will help them out when there are sufficient numbers.

I said multi-cultural, I did not say athiest.

Einhard

I like the fact that the surname Quinn is being mentioned in the context of religion, and for once it's not David Quinn trying to impose it on the rest of us!!

rockmongrel

ISAW wrote: »

Well you might wait for the census but I think you will find we live in a country were 95 per cent plus of the occupants are religious believers. Where do you get off dictating to people what they should believe?

Do you actually understand what secularism is?

ISAW

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Thread title.

Other thasn the thread title? The plural was used.

I said multi-cultural, I did not say athiest.

what non Roman catholic religious denomination do you think wants and should get a Catholic School building from the Catholic School? What area has such laege numbers leaving the Catholic Church and asking to be in this new or other denomination?

NTMK

ISAW wrote: »

I think you will find that Ireland is not an atheistic country and that about one to three per cent of people are atheist. I thou you will find no atheistic society ever that contributed anything of merit to the world short of mass genocide. I think you will find the constitution supports the right of people to have an education which respects a religious ethos and also supports the right not to have a religious ethos which in fact the Catholic church also supports and have endeavored to assist non Catholics in setting up schools.

*sigh*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_science

anyone else want to have a go

OhNoYouDidn't

95% of the Irish population are practicing religious?

Will you get up the yard etc.

ISAW

rockmongrel wrote: »

Do you actually understand what secularism is?

Yes. Do you understand what article 44 says?
Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/types_primary_school.html
There is no absolute requirement on schools to admit any particular student. Schools are required to publish their admissions policy.

Schools are subject to equal status legislation and to the constitutional requirements on religion.

ISAW

Einhard wrote: »

Eh, the lada?

Seriously, such a very silly statement. Stop making silly statements please. It makes baby Jesus cry when intelligent people make patently ridiculous claims for partisan purposes.

Atheistic China and USSR oversaw the planned deaths of over a hundred million people. State Atheism was central to their political agenda. No atheistic society contributed any great things to the history of civilization. But what do we get? Frothing about the tiny minority of abusers which are clergy and whipping up the fears of religions being involved in education when the alternative isn't indicated and the potential harm of religion exaggerated.

ISAW

Einhard wrote: »

Standards haven't dropped in Gaelscoileanna, or in EducateTogether schools. And the Irish state, contrary to popular opinion, does many things well.

Gaelscoileanna and educate together are not prevented from having religion in school. The church does not oppose such schools and actually wants to assist them. Whether they decide to have religion or not.

OhNoYouDidn't

ISAW wrote: »

Atheistic China and USSR oversaw the planned deaths of over a hundred million people. State Atheism was central to their political agenda. No atheistic society contributed any great things to the history of civilization. But what do we get? Frothing about the tiny minority of abusers which are clergy and whipping up the fears of religions being involved in education when the alternative isn't indicated and the potential harm of religion exaggerated.

And when the USSR or Red China rape kids in our schools and cover it up, we will limit their power too.

At a very simple level, the Catholic Church have too many more schools than there are Catholics in Ireland and parents do not have a real choice. No-one is arguing for complete removal of the church from our schools, just balancing them down towords the numbers who want that sort of education.

sdanseo

ISAW you're on some kind of hardline, borderline demonic religious rampage so rather than pick the 17,000 holes that would be nessecary to disprove your - frankly odd - reasoning I'm just going to suggest that you awaken from you la-la-land induced sleep and re-enter the real world.

Without delving into the realm of personal abuse or insults which would likely end in my being infracted let me just say this - you are completely and utterly off the wall deluded (imho).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ISAW wrote: »

Other thasn the thread title? The plural was used.

Now you're just being picky. Although...

what non Roman catholic religious denomination do you think wants and should get a Catholic School building from the Catholic School? What area has such laege numbers leaving the Catholic Church and asking to be in this new or other denomination?

...this technically, also qualifies as a loaded question. Why does any religious organisation have to run schools?

Einhard

ISAW wrote: »

Frothing about the tiny minority of abusers which are clergy and whipping up the fears of religions being involved in education when the alternative isn't indicated and the potential harm of religion exaggerated.

Blaming the crimes of atheistic regimes on their atheism is willful ignorance. The brutalities of Stalin and Mao weren't carried out in the name of atheism; the brutalities of the Inquisition etc were enacted in the name of Christianity. Therein lies the difference. To ignore that difference is self-delusion, and unworthy.

ISAW wrote: »

Gaelscoileanna and educate together are not prevented from having religion in school. The church does not oppose such schools and actually wants to assist them. Whether they decide to have religion or not.

Never claimed the contrary. I was responding to the suggestion that education will suffer if removed from religious patronage.

Einhard

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

At a very simple level, the Catholic Church have too many more schools than there are Catholics in Ireland and parents do not have a real choice. No-one is arguing for complete removal of the church from our schools, just balancing them down towords the numbers who want that sort of education.

This is exactly the point. Nobody is suggesting that all religious schools will be closed down forthwith. Indeed, the point of the exercise is to enage with schools and the communities they serve, and to make decisions on patronage based on those consultations. Where there is a clear demand for continuing religious patronage, that will continue. Where a demand for an alternative is evident, an alternative will be provided. I fail to see how anyone could have a problem with such a reasonable, consulatative process. But then, some people just seem to like to argue for the sake of it.

oppenheimer1

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And when the USSR or Red China rape kids in our schools and cover it up, we will limit their power too.

At a very simple level, the Catholic Church have too many more schools than there are Catholics in Ireland and parents do not have a real choice. No-one is arguing for complete removal of the church from our schools, just balancing them down towords the numbers who want that sort of education.

Much more than the church involved in abusing children over the last century and beyond. In fact if you look at the figures children were more physically and sexually abused by family members and other lay people than the clergy, and families covered it up. Wheres the uproar about that, the real scandal?

What I'm interested in is a school where say 40% of parents want the church to pull out and 60% want it to remain. What happens then when there is a sizeable minority in opposition?

bitter

rockmongrel wrote: »

Do you actually understand what secularism is?

please don't encourage him :rolleyes:

Einhard

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What I'm interested in is a school where say 40% of parents want the church to pull out and 60% want it to remain. What happens then when there is a sizeable minority in opposition?

That only causes a problem when you look at schools in isolation. generally speaking, an area will have several schools. Where there are substantial minorities in a number of religious schools demanding secular patronage, they can be accomodated by granting such patronage to one of the schools. Thus, in stead of the situation at present, where one might have 5 religious schools in a town, in future there may be four denominational and one secular. Surely a fairer and more representative situation?

bitter

ISAW wrote: »

Atheistic China and USSR oversaw the planned deaths of over a hundred million people. State Atheism was central to their political agenda. No atheistic society contributed any great things to the history of civilization. But what do we get? Frothing about the tiny minority of abusers which are clergy and whipping up the fears of religions being involved in education when the alternative isn't indicated and the potential harm of religion exaggerated.

Jesus H Christ.. and I'm an athiest btw..

oppenheimer1

Einhard wrote: »

That only causes a problem when you look at schools in isolation. generally speaking, an area will have several schools. Where there are substantial minorities in a number of religious schools demanding secular patronage, they can be accomodated by granting such patronage to one of the schools. Thus, in stead of the situation at present, where one might have 5 religious schools in a town, in future there may be four denominational and one secular. Surely a fairer and more representative situation?

In rural areas that isn't a choice as schools actually exist in isolation.

Dr. Baltar

Schools should either teach every religion or no religion when in the hands of the state. If you want to send your child to a religious school, then send them to a private one. The state should not prefer one religion over another ever and secular schools would be a great thing.

Separation of Church and state is important! All of us are not catholics and we have a right to be able to educate our kids in a fair and equal setting. If you want your children to be religious do it at home.

Hank_Jones

This thread got derailed quite quickly...

I don't see what the issue is with this, there are still going to be Catholic schools that parents will be able to send their children to if they wish.

Without doing this we are, essentially, forcing parents into putting their children into schools they do not themselves support.

We should be happy that as a country we are moving forward, in some respects at least.

sdanseo

I think the overbearing point that is being made here is that the Catholic Church - nor any church - should have a monopoly on the education of our children.

In my own opinion, school should be about education. Religious education may be a part of that, that's up to the parent of each individual child and if they want to conciously send their child to a denominational school then that's fine once the religious values are not rammed down the throats of the kids with detrement to education that is actually based on fact rather than belief.

The fact that the CC has been allowed to maintain such a huge patronage over schools here and effectively bar parents from having any choice in whether or not their kids go through the whole catholic rigmarole is wrong.

oppenheimer1

[QUOTE=Dr. Baltar;71511652]Schools should either teach every religion or no religion when in the hands of the state. If you want to send your child to a religious school, then send them to a private one. The state should not prefer one religion over another ever and secular schools would be a great thing.

Separation of Church and state is important! All of us are not catholics and we have a right to be able to educate our kids in a fair and equal setting. If you want your children to be religious do it at home.[/QUOTE]


A fully fledged two tier education system, where the private "old schools" run by the Church educate the leaders of tomorrow while the ordinary plebs get a low quality education in the school run by the VEC....

Splitting a system, which isn't broken, will create more problems than it solves. It will lead to a new brand of eliteism. Couple this with the fact that university is going to become less affordable and ironically a Labour minister may be responsible for keeping the working classes out of reaching their full potential?


If a secular education is so desireable then why is there such a long waiting list for children to get into faith based schools in the UK?

Einhard

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

In rural areas that isn't a choice as schools actually exist in isolation.

Well not entirely. Rural schools should exist in isolation, but one often finds several very small schools in relative proximity to one another. There is a process of amalgamation underway at the moment, so many of these will (hopefully) be integrated into larger schools in the near future. At that point, a decision can be arrived at, based on the wants and needs of the local community. A perfectly equitable solution may not always be arrived at, but the situation at the moment is entirely untenable.

Einhard

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A fully fledged two tier education system, where the private "old schools" run by the Church educate the leaders of tomorrow while the ordinary plebs get a low quality education in the school run by the VEC....

That's not what's being proposed at all...

Splitting a system, which isn't broken, will create more problems than it solves. It will lead to a new brand of eliteism.

The system is untenable. Why should the children of atheist parents have to leave the classroom during Communion instruction? Why should atheists and agnostics and secularists not have the option to send their kids to non-demoninational schools? They pay the same taxes as religious parents. Why should they be actively discriminated against?

If a secular education is so desireable then why is there such a long waiting list for children to get into faith based schools in the UK?

Nobody's stating that religious education is necessarily a negative thing, or that secular education is automatically superior. People just want a choice. So, instead of 95% of schools being run by Christian bodies, it'll be 50-60%. How is choice a bad thing?

Dr. Baltar

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A fully fledged two tier education system, where the private "old schools" run by the Church educate the leaders of tomorrow while the ordinary plebs get a low quality education in the school run by the VEC....

Splitting a system, which isn't broken, will create more problems than it solves. It will lead to a new brand of eliteism. Couple this with the fact that university is going to become less affordable and ironically a Labour minister may be responsible for keeping the working classes out of reaching their full potential?


If a secular education is so desireable then why is there such a long waiting list for children to get into faith based schools in the UK?

VEC schools can be run very well. The way you speak you would swear that as soon as religion and a weekly visit from the priest stopped in schools that entire education system would collapse.

Rather than having kids do a religion class once or twice a week, that time could be spent learning a meaningful subject.
Rather than having kids learn songs and chants for communion and confirmation they can learn a meaningful subject.

Want to make confirmation? Bring your child down to the church yourself, stop wasting other kids time.

As for this whole anti-working class sentiment that you're talking about.
Private schools already exist. Some are religious. Some are non-religious.
If you can afford it, go for it.

oppenheimer1

Einhard wrote: »

Well not entirely. Rural schools should exist in isolation, but one often finds several very small schools in relative proximity to one another. There is a process of amalgamation underway at the moment, so many of these will (hopefully) be integrated into larger schools in the near future. At that point, a decision can be arrived at, based on the wants and needs of the local community. A perfectly equitable solution may not always be arrived at, but the situation at the moment is entirely untenable.

So these amalgamated rural schools will then face the same choice where a possible sizable minority may want change but the majority wants to keep the status quo. Its these kind of things that will split communities particularly rural ones, where the school is one of the key institutions of a locality.

In very few cases will there be a desire for all out change where greater than 85% of parents desire it, apart from our new ghettos.

The truth is change will be a highly divisive local issue.