Census 2011

gigino · 12-03-2011 04:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

While we were part of the UK it was every 10 years.

At some point after independence it moved to every 5 years as the population was declining so rapidly and this was kept.

Every 10 years would do fine now here as well now, given the cost of the census.

Such was the poor planning during the past 15 years ( eg ghost estates in the middle of nowhere ) ...the cost of the last few census was not justified anyway.

gigino · 12-03-2011 04:34PM

if they want to find out how many are unemployed, press a button in the office who pays this.

If they want to see how many people read Irish, go in to a newsagent or bookstore and see how many newspapers / magazines / books are in Irish.

It would be a more reliable result.

Victor · 12-03-2011 07:48PM

gigino wrote: »

if they want to find out how many are unemployed, press a button in the office who pays this.

The level of unemployment is not the same as the level of people who the number of people receiving benefits, e.g. people who are looking for work, but living of other income.

jakdelad · 12-03-2011 11:20PM

heyjude wrote: »

The census is a waste of time(unless you are a statistician or someone else paid to collect, collate or analyse the data), as its purpose is supposed to enable the government and public bodies to have the data necessary to make plans for the future and yet there is little evidence of the sort of good forward planning that would accompany a government that made use of the census data in that way.

As someone who had a bad experience with one of our major banks regarding a leak of confidential personal information,which I reported and which resulted in nothing being done, I have no confidence in any assurances from the government or cso regarding the confidentiality of any information contained in a census return, for proving that a leak of your confidential information came from a census return would be virtually impossible at a later stage. Aren't there rules on the use of information on the garda computer system too, yet you hear stories of individual gardai using the system to check up on people for personal reasons. Has anyone in any government office or state agency ever been prosecuted for leaking confidential information or allowing it to be stolen ? and if not, are we to believe that no such information has ever been leaked ?

Finally, the risks to the individual of his/her personal information being stolen or abused is too great and the benefits too small, when most of the information in the census is either already in the possession of some arm of the state or remains unchanged from the previous census. For example, the census may want to find out how many people are living in a particular household, but if you've been living in the same house for the past 20 years, why do they keep on asking you when the house was built ? Besides the council planning office will know when a property was built. I also do not understand, if the information is only to be used for planning purposes, why they need to know you exact date or birth rather than just your year of birth ? But it would make a big difference if the information goes astray.

security ya thats what the revenue boys thought as well
so they chained their laptops to the desks
guess what ten were stolen
but all the information is encrypted [yawn]
you can get a free online decrypter for any ten day trial...
most likely they were using xp, start in safe mode your in...
why is just a headcount just not enough
what is it that they want to know personal and private information
about irish citizens
latest new question hows your health??/ jesus
how far will they go???
your health, religion, how many cars you have etc, is none of their dam business
tell them nothing

they are worst then hoovers FBI
let them take you to court
ask them to show you exactly where in the consitition it says
you must dilvulge personal and private information about yourself
remember citizens information is extremely valuable.
so dont believe all that ,the govt needs this information to plan bullsh1t
just look at all the ghost housing estates ,oh ya real planning there,
they are called enumeraters folks, counters, put the no of people in your home on the form, thats all you have to do.
its just food and drink for a big quango called cso
who are about as useful as a trapdoor in a canoe

BrianD · 13-03-2011 01:27AM

jakdelad wrote: »

security ya thats what the revenue boys thought as well
so they chained their laptops to the desks
guess what ten were stolen
but all the information is encrypted [yawn]
you can get a free online decrypter for any ten day trial...
most likely they were using xp, start in safe mode your in...
why is just a headcount just not enough
what is it that they want to know personal and private information
about irish citizens
latest new question hows your health??/ jesus
how far will they go???
your health, religion, how many cars you have etc, is none of their dam business
tell them nothing

Nonsense, the Revenue actually have quite a secure system and penalties for employees who decide to take a gander at other peoples data. They also have systems that disable the use of USB keys etc. Data isn't stored on laptops either.

they are worst then hoovers FBI
let them take you to court
ask them to show you exactly where in the consitition it says
you must dilvulge personal and private information about yourself
remember citizens information is extremely valuable.
so dont believe all that ,the govt needs this information to plan bullsh1t
just look at all the ghost housing estates ,oh ya real planning there,
they are called enumeraters folks, counters, put the no of people in your home on the form, thats all you have to do.
its just food and drink for a big quango called cso
who are about as useful as a trapdoor in a canoe

Eh, it's the law. The constitution as zip to do with it.

DeVore · 13-03-2011 03:09PM

nuac wrote: »

Because census is taken on a Sunday night it is skewed in favour of the larger centres of population.

At the end of each weekend usually on Sunday evening thousands of young people leave each rural county to return to work or thirdlevel education in larger centres.

This results in lower populations been shown in smaller communities and inflated numbers in larger centres. Some of those in larger centres are aware of this. For at least one census UCG set exams on the following Monday morning.

A census to give true result should be held on a Saturday night.

If we did that, the entire population of Dublin would be "missing, presumed in Copperface Jacks (aka Slapperfaced Cocks)".

DeV.

BrianD · 14-03-2011 01:13AM

DeVore wrote: »

If we did that, the entire population of Dublin would be "missing, presumed in Copperface Jacks (aka Slapperfaced Cocks)".

DeV.

The budget wasn't there for a special enumerators kiosk at the aforementioned club complete with staff in special GAA shirt styled uniforms.

BrianD · 14-03-2011 05:18PM

Actually, I was inclined to think that Jakdelad was alittle off his rocker until I read on another board that a CACI UK is a census contractor and a subsidary of an AMerican company, CACI International.

CACI provides intelligence and interrogation staff to the US Military and/or their civilian contractor is Iraq. Most notably they allegedly provided over half of the interrogators in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison.

Legal cases against CACI seem to be in process and it seems that the CSO can't disbar a contractor unless they have a conviction.

I wrote to the CSO office to confirm this and this is their response:

csofieldoffice wrote:

The census is a major undertaking for the CSO and contractors have been
employed to assist with specialized parts of the work. For 2011 the
contract for the design and print of the census forms, and the provision
and onsite support of the hardware and software required for the scanning,
capture and coding of the census forms was awarded to CACI UK, which is an
independent subsidiary of CACI International. CACI UK were first awarded
the contract for the processing of the 2002 and 2006 censuses and won the
2011 contract after an open competitive procurement process run under EU
competitive tendering law which applies to all public bodies. Of the
proposals received by the CSO, CACI (UK)â€™s gave best value for the
taxpayer. EU rules do not allow bidders to be excluded because they are
foreign companies. The census forms were printed by a Dublin printer.

In August 2003, CACI International Inc provided staff to the US Army to
conduct IT and intelligence work in Iraq including interrogation services.
Subsequently, in spring 2004 an allegation was made that a CACI employee
had been involved in the mistreatment of detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison
in Iraq. This allegation was not substantiated by any evidence or proof at
the time it was made, and subsequent investigations by both CACI and the US
government could not confirm it. CACI have stated publicly that they take
this allegation extremely seriously, that they do not condone, tolerate or
endorse any illegal behavior by its employees in any circumstances or at
any time and they have, and always will, hold themselves to the highest
ethical standards.

The Central Statistics Office is fundamentally committed to ethical and
proper conduct in all matters and would never have any dealings with a
company convicted of human rights abuse. EU procurement rules do allow
bidders to be excluded if they have been convicted of certain criminal or
other offences but none of these exclusions applies to CACI (UK) - or
indeed to its US parent. The US parent company strongly denies the
allegations made against it and makes clear its abhorrence of human rights
violations.

Confidentiality is the cornerstone of all work conducted by the CSO. All
information collected in the census is treated as strictly confidential by
the CSO and will be used only for statistical purposes. This
confidentiality is guaranteed by law. Under the Statistics Act 1993 the
Central Statistics Office is prohibited by law from divulging any
individual information to any third party, be it a Government Department or
agency, or a private enterprise. The CSO is the only organisation that
will have access to identifiable census information relating to individuals
or households.

All staff working on the census (HQ, field or contract) have been signed up
as Officers of Statistics. The penalty for any breaches of confidentiality
by staff, permanent or contract, can be as high as â‚¬25,000. All are made
fully aware of their legal obligations in this respect.

The CSO is justifiably proud of its unblemished record in protecting the
confidentiality of data. It is one of the CSO's top priorities to maintain
this record.

Every household present in the State on Census night, April 10th, has a
legal obligation to complete a Census form under the Statistics Act 1993
and the Statistics (Census of Population) Order 2010.

I for one will be putting a line through mine until the CSO ditch this contractor. I'm not sure if I will be fined or will have electrodes applied to my nether regions.

hotmama · 14-03-2011 05:51PM

seriously?? Ur not falling for this tripe, though ur enumerator will be slow to tell u this, u can be prosecuted for not filling out ur census form, i really don't think this excuse will stand up in court

BrianD · 14-03-2011 08:30PM

hotmama wrote: »

seriously?? Ur not falling for this tripe, though ur enumerator will be slow to tell u this, u can be prosecuted for not filling out ur census form, i really don't think this excuse will stand up in court

Not falling for it? The CSO has confirmed that this is the company though they say they can't disbar them as they haven't been convicted of anything.

I am aware that the it is law to fill out the form.

Most human rights abuses occur by good people staying silent.

cyclopath2001 · 14-03-2011 10:08PM

caseyann wrote: »

What you afraid of if they do or not?

The statistics are used to decide how to allocate scarce public resources, it is important that they are as accurate as possible.

hotmama · 14-03-2011 10:31PM

BrianD wrote: »

Not falling for it? The CSO has confirmed that this is the company though they say they can't disbar them as they haven't been convicted of anything.

I am aware that the it is law to fill out the form.

Most human rights abuses occur by good people staying silent.

There is a reason they can't disbar them they haven't been CONVICTED.
Before u say i am being naiive, don't u be naiive tne fact is if the cso had any real concerns about this company they would have come up with an excuse not to choose them

Essexboy · 14-03-2011 10:32PM

BrianD wrote: »

Nonsense, the Revenue actually have quite a secure system and penalties for employees who decide to take a gander at other peoples data. They also have systems that disable the use of USB keys etc. Data isn't stored on laptops either.

Eh, it's the law. The constitution as zip to do with it.

the Revenue actually have quite a secure system and penalties for employees who decide to take a gander at other peoples data.

How many looked at Dolores McNamara's records and how many were punished?

caseyann · 14-03-2011 11:21PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The statistics are used to decide how to allocate scarce public resources, it is important that they are as accurate as possible.

Ah so you are hoping that the people say they dont speak Irish so you can get rid of Irish?

I had one of the girls drop it off to me tonight,Proper nice girl.We had a chat

I was quite shocked to hear how she was recieved aswell by a Black woman (do not know origins) Verbally abused her like our other poster here on boards.Cursed her.She felt that intimidated she isnt going back to collect it.
What is wrong with some people two minutes at the door?
Although i chated to her for about 15 mins

hotmama · 14-03-2011 11:49PM

oh thats disgraceful poor girl doesn't have to put witn that, hope she reports her to fs, she shouldn't go back, let her supervisor deal with her thats their job

caseyann · 14-03-2011 11:53PM

hotmama wrote: »

oh thats disgraceful poor girl doesn't have to put witn that, hope she reports her to fs, she shouldn't go back, let her supervisor deal with her thats their job

Totally agree if it is a inconvenience at that moment and time sorry i cant come to the door right now could you put in letter box thank you or maybe call back another day?
If it had of been a man no way i believe she would have done that.She screamed out her window at her aswell.

jakdelad · 15-03-2011 12:05AM

BrianD wrote: »

Nonsense, the Revenue actually have quite a secure system and penalties for employees who decide to take a gander at other peoples data. They also have systems that disable the use of USB keys etc. Data isn't stored on laptops either.

Eh, it's the law. The constitution as zip to do with it.

really
where exactly is the law that says a woman must answer how many children born alive??? shes had?
or the law thats asks how many cars you have or how many computers you have
so the revenue have secure systems???
like chaining laptops to desks??
oh i can sleep so sound knowing how secure everything is,,like the man said what severe penaltys did the members of our public service face for snooping on dolores the euro lotto winners details????
and then folks when they get beat spewing out the spin.
the big stick of court, jail, and fines, are there to make you comply

jakdelad · 15-03-2011 12:11AM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The statistics are used to decide how to allocate scarce public resources, it is important that they are as accurate as possible.

well someone needs to do an audit then
because al our scarce resources are gone to crooked banks
bad planning and emigration to canada uk and australia
look there there ,thats where all our scarce resources are
anyone know what this census will cost mr taxpayer???

hotmama · 15-03-2011 01:00AM

i have to say i agree with you, in an ideal world the info from the census which was done we have to assume pretty accurately a mere 5 yrs ago seems to have been completely ignored, ghosts estates one good example. Unfortunately i believe its all about politics n who has the power, take for example the cute kerry hoor who held the government to ransom for a hospital in his local area, i wonder were the last stats checked for that??!!

TonyStark · 18-03-2011 11:36AM

I find it a shame in this day and age that there isn't an online version of it that can't be filled in and do away with the need of people calling to your house to give you a form that needs to be manually filled in and then transcribed into an electronic database.

hotmama · 19-03-2011 10:57AM

TonyStark wrote: »

I find it a shame in this day and age that there isn't an online version of it that can't be filled in and do away with the need of people calling to your house to give you a form that needs to be manually filled in and then transcribed into an electronic database.

To be fair i am currently working as an enumerator in a rural area with a lot of older people who i will have to help fill out the manual form never mind asking them to use a computer. Even my parents who are not by any means old don't have a,computer at home

TonyStark · 19-03-2011 12:47PM

Not suggesting that it's a solution that will do away with enumerators.
But seriously 12million spent on enumerators salaries where at least half the population have access to the computer. An online solution seems like a no brainer.

No offence, but as a programmer myself. I'd rather my information being held in a database behind a couple of firewalls than sitting in a locked room in someones house no matter how good his/her intentions are.

BrianD · 19-03-2011 02:37PM

jakdelad wrote: »

really
where exactly is the law that says a woman must answer how many children born alive??? shes had?
or the law thats asks how many cars you have or how many computers you have
so the revenue have secure systems???
like chaining laptops to desks??
oh i can sleep so sound knowing how secure everything is,,like the man said what severe penaltys did the members of our public service face for snooping on dolores the euro lotto winners details????
and then folks when they get beat spewing out the spin.
the big stick of court, jail, and fines, are there to make you comply

I wouldn't have agreed with you until I found out what company they were contracted by the CSO and their dodgy human rights record and connections to Homeland Security in the USA.

In regard to the law, there is the Statistics Act which covers any data gathering in the national interest by the CSO and the penalties for not complying.

In regard to the Revenue, they centrally store data and would have encryption on the laptops. If the thieves were after data, they would have got very little.

A friend of mine does work in the Revenue and since the Delores incident there has been strict conditions on the accessing of data. There's no general access, They know who is looking at it and there has to be a reason for looking at it. It's a big no-no.

hotmama · 20-03-2011 01:02AM

TonyStark wrote: »

Not suggesting that it's a solution that will do away with enumerators.
But seriously 12million spent on enumerators salaries where at least half the population have access to the computer. An online solution seems like a no brainer.

No offence, but as a programmer myself. I'd rather my information being held in a database behind a couple of firewalls than sitting in a locked room in someones house no matter how good his/her intentions are.[/QUOTE
I think u r being a little naiive about this, think about it, firstly how much would the software cost , secondly they would have to do a lot more advertising in order to make sure that people did it online, thirdly the way the broadband is so badly developed in ireland people may have computers but no broadband access and finally logistically it would be a nightmare, some people will do it on the computer, others have to be manually enumerated n how would that be sorted. I think until the full population have broadband n computer access it wouldn't work. Btw no offence taken but there has been no breach in security using this method so it is more secure than u may think

TonyStark · 20-03-2011 02:13AM

It wouldn't cost 12million. As I said it previously it could be used as in conjunction with the offline system. The census form isn't complicated by any means. If you apply for a mortgage online I'm sure you can do a straightforward census.

it's not even an issue of broadband, taking that view I think is naive, it's about process improvement and investment in IT. If they can do it in the UK for their census then it should be achievable here with a population a fraction of theirs. It's a fallacy to say Broadband is an issue. If they accept applications only online for Census enumerators they can certainly make the census available to opt in. It makes redundant the need to re-key information and proofing can be enforced easily by rules.

All information would be centrally available so it would mean supervisors could see what houses had completed one online and reduce the need for revisits.

The only difficulty here is not the technology but the willingness to change archaic rigid processes of data collection with fresh modern flexible approaches.

.

jakdelad · 20-03-2011 10:09PM

BrianD wrote: »

I wouldn't have agreed with you until I found out what company they were contracted by the CSO and their dodgy human rights record and connections to Homeland Security in the USA.

In regard to the law, there is the Statistics Act which covers any data gathering in the national interest by the CSO and the penalties for not complying.
yes but wheres the benchmark??
how far and probing do you go with your questions?{do you have a beerbelly}
for being such a big smart ass data collector
why dont they record how many suicides there are in the country
we could see where and any links to alleviate this

In regard to the Revenue, they centrally store data and would have encryption on the laptops. If the thieves were after data, they would have got very little. yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

A friend of mine does work in the Revenue and since the Delores incident there has been strict conditions on the accessing of data. There's no general access, They know who is looking at it and there has to be a reason for looking at it. It's a big no-no.

ya its the,[ they know who is looking] people i would be worried about
when are we as a nation going to stand up for ourselves
and not be bullied by the threat of courts and fines. for trying to protect your privacy as a citizen in this counrtry
remember folks they see your payslip, you dont see theirs

mel.b · 20-03-2011 10:42PM

I got my census today. Am actually a little dissapointed in it - was hoping for something more interesting! In comparision to the one i remember doing in Australia in 2006 I think it doesn't seem to ask many questions.

I do have a question about one of the questions - Q 10 - what is your nationality? There is an option for 'no nationality' How can someone have no nationality? Citzenship yes, but nationality? To me, nationality is implied, normally from country of birth and / or parents. Can someone shed some light on this for me?

Edit: just found this link to the census in Australia and the questions it has/will ask in their census later this year. As I recalled it asks more questions and gets more specifics about certain areas.
http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/410FDD3C31C0BE1FCA257673001BFC61/$File/20080_2011.pdf

Elirlandes · 20-03-2011 10:57PM

So here is the rub -
"Question 6: What is your place of birth?
Give the place where your mother lived at the time of your birth."
Well, we used to live in London. My children were born in a hospital in Spain because their mother wanted to be close to her family while they were being born, but at the time she lived in London.
According to the first line "What is your place of birth?" the answer is "Spain".
According to the second - "Give the place where your mother lived at the time of your birth." the answer is "London".

So what answer to give? (I'm assuming it is more important to note where the child actually saw light of day, rather than the place we had keys for an appartment in...)
Suggestions welcome...

laughter189 · 20-03-2011 11:02PM

I suggest you answer living in London and child born in Spain .

If a woman gives birth while on holidays in The Bahamas , then of course the childs place of birth is the Bahamas.

JBnaglfar · 21-03-2011 01:22PM

mel.b wrote: »

I do have a question about one of the questions - Q 10 - what is your nationality? There is an option for 'no nationality' How can someone have no nationality? Citzenship yes, but nationality? To me, nationality is implied, normally from country of birth and / or parents. Can someone shed some light on this for me?

The wikipedia page on statelessness will give more detail, but some possible examples of this would be someone voluntarily renouncing citizenship, or if the state they were born in no longer exists and there is no successor state. If you have ever seen the film The Terminal, it is based on this idea. Supposedly it is based on a true story where someone lived for almost two decades in an airport in France as they had no citizenship anywhere.

Census 2011

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