Want to take up target shooting, advice needed :)

Marksman20 · 16-03-2011 11:53PM #1

Hi all,

Im new to Boards.ie and im trying to get some advice on taking up target shooting. I do have previous shooting experience as ive served with the Army Reserve for 3 years, but I have never privately owned a firearm. I understand all the licensing requirements etc i.e Membership of a club, gun safe and so on...I was thinking of joining Midlands shooting range down in Tullamore.
Anyway, im not really sure what sort of rifle and calibre I should be looking at for starting off, and what I would actually be granted a licence for.e.g would it be unreasonable to look for a .223 or a .308??? I want to shoot at reasonably long ranges, so im sort of assuming I shouldnt be going below .223 Win, as anything below this would sort of feel like a step backwards for me...:D Also, i hope to take up hunting at some point in the future ( Deer), so maybe I should be looking at a dual purpose rifle/calibre?? Any advice you could offer would be much appreciated as it seems like solid info is hard to come by in Ireland

Regards

Marksman20

Tackleberrywho · 17-03-2011 12:23AM

.223 REMINGTON is a very similar round that you are used to shooting and are priced from €10 a box 20 upwards.
.308 is more like a 7.62 and is more expensive to run than .223

You can compete with .223 in FTR but you can't shoot deer with that calibre.

To be honest there is no such thing as a stalking/Target shooting calibre.

Deer stalkers like light powerful rifles.
Target shooters want 30" barrels on heavy actions/stocks to get out to 3000 feet per second + (a rule of thumb for Long range Target shooting)

The cheapest entry level Target shooting FTR rifle would probably be a savage FTR.

It's slightly different shooting on a civie range than shooting on a DF range.

Go to Midlands for a few Sundays and see do you like it before you plough a lot of money into it.

Target shooting is an expensive sport to start in to.

Second hand you would want to budget a min of 3 grand to get set up with all teh gear and membership

Did you ever consider buying a .22lr and seeing how that goes?

Cass · 17-03-2011 12:24AM

............ and what I would actually be granted a licence for.e.g would it be unreasonable to look for a .223 or a .308???

No.

Once you show good reason for the firearm being sought you can apply for any make, model or in this case caliber you wish. Your right to apply is actually one of the few entitlments you have. I do know a good few lads that have sought a .308 (or other large cvaliber rifle) as their first firearm. They wanted the rifle for target shooting and were successful because the they met all the necessary criteria.

I want to shoot at reasonably long ranges, so im sort of assuming I shouldnt be going below .223 Win, as anything below this would sort of feel like a step backwards for me... Also, i hope to take up hunting at some point in the future ( Deer), so maybe I should be looking at a dual purpose rifle/calibre??

A .223 rifle would be capable of medium to long range shooting, however if the rifle will/may serve as a dual purpose rifle (at some point) then .223 would be out as it will not pass the minimum requirement for deer legal as per NPWS standards. They are the licensing authority for deer licenses.

Any advice you could offer would be much appreciated as it seems like solid info is hard to come by in Ireland

Personally i would suggest a .308 rifle. It is the most popular caliber, ammo choice is extensive and there are alot of rifles currently available that would serve as medium to long range target rifles and as a hunting rifle. A 6.5x55 would put you into the F-Open class of target shooting. Here you would be going up against alot (if not all) custom rifles, and it can be more expensive than F/TR shooting. They are a great hunting caliber so if hunting is more important to you at the moment that target work, its always an option.

I hate to be negative, but if you are considering target shooting on a competitive level you may find that any rifle that acts well as a crossover between hunting and target may not be able to perform aswell as those rifles designed to do target work only, and i am not refering to any custom rifle. many hunting rifle are by design lighter, and have shorter barrels than your average target rifle which puts you at a disadvantage. There are the likes of the TRG which is a little heavy for hunting, but can be used, and is perfectly capable of hitting the mark at 1,000 yards.

There is always the option of going for a decent/good hunting based rifle such as a Sako or Tika. These are naturally accurate rifle, light to carry and hunt with and with their 24" barrels will allow you to shoot out to 600 yards. You could always change or customise at a later date if you decide to stay with the target work only.

There are currently a few forms of long range shooting to pick from so you would need to pick which one you would best prefer. From a previous post of mine:

Ezridax wrote:

A quick rundown of the 2 most popular forms of long range target shooting.

F-Open - This is shooting done with a rifle, scope, front rest and back bag. Typical calibers include, 7mm, 6.5x284, but any caliber is allowed. It would be unusual, but not unheard off to use another caliber simply because these seem to be the tried and tested ones. The rifle cannot exceed 22lbs in weight. This includes rifle, scope, mounts, bolt. The front rest can be of any size and make, but must have a sand bag between the forestock of the rifle and the rest. The back back must also be of "simple" design and have sand between butt stock and rest/bag. Any power scope can be used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E70KxFsJ08E

FTR - This is shooting also done with a rifle, and scope, but has a bipod instead of a rest and a rear sandbag as with F-Open. The discipline is limited to .223, and .308 caliber rifles ONLY. The distances vary between 600 yards to a max of 1,000 yards. The setup for FTR shooting is usually cheaper than F-Open, but depending on your taste and customising of your rifle can be more expensive. The majority (if not all) of shooters use .308 caliber rifles. The vary from TRGs, Remingtons to the popular Savage. Thereason for them being so popular is they have excellent accuracy, but come in (price wise) cheaper than most/all factory rifles but is able to outshoot them from the off requiring no modifications.

The only limit in either class is the size of your wallet. . For €3,500 you could have a brand new rifle, scope and all gear for FTR. The F-open would be slightly more expensive, but not by enough to put you off and all setups could be got second hand.

The other three disciplines are Benchrest, Target rifle, and Match rifle.

TR shooting is open/aperture sight shooting. Done from 300 yards out to 1,000 it requires a good degree of skill and is a great sport. Your have rifle, sights, sling, jacket. No rests, bags or bipods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6u9_Uy2vjo

Benchrest. This is shooting done with a rifle, scope, front rest and back bag all done in a seated position of a Bench. The rifles have over time become bigger, and more highly tuned than most things you would see on an average range. Have a look at this to see how it goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I-c-HSHFas

Match Rifle. This shooting done with a .308 caliber rifle at distances of 1,000 / 1,100 / 1,200 yards. In other words where normal F-Class shooting stops. The shooter can use a front rest but no back bag. It is generally shot from the prone position but can also be done "back gunning".

Thats should cover all the info you need about the types of shooting and possible calibers. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

Marksman20 · 17-03-2011 01:55PM

(Apologies in advance for not using the quotes, i tried but made a balls of it

So in the interest of expediency...)
Wow, I didnt expect such great, detailed answers so quickly. Thanks, I really appreciate it.

Ah I see what you mean about multi-purpose rifles. To be honest, for now im just interested in a bit of recreational shooting on the range, probably in the FTR category. It wouldnt bother me that I cant yet compete with the purpose made target rifles. If I ever got serious about competition, well then id definitely consider upgrading. For now id be happy with a rifle that would be suitable for some range work and hunting in the future. I like the Tikkas and Sakos alright, having seen your recommendations im thinking either a Tikka T3 Tactical or Sako 85 Hunter in .308 would be a good start. What would you reccommend in terms of other kit like optics, bi-pods etc., keeping in mind my current "Jack of all trades, master of none approach"

In what way do civvie ranges differ?

22lr - I had thought about it, butalthough I live in the "country", im only a few miles out of town and there is no land suitable for shooting on. That means id have to pay the 600 quid just to use the 50m range...not really worth it IMO.

If I went down to Midlands on a Sunday, can you rent a rifle for the day , or do you just mean to have a look around.

Sparks · 17-03-2011 02:13PM

Someone ought to mention the VCRAI shooting as well...

...and I've only not mentioned ISSF 'cos it doesn't sound like what the OP's interested in (yet

)

Cass · 17-03-2011 02:23PM

Marksman20 wrote: »

(Apologies in advance for not using the quotes, i tried but made a balls of it So in the interest of expediency...)

Can be a bit of a bitch to get used to, but you'll get there.

............ having seen your recommendations im thinking either a Tikka T3 Tactical or Sako 85 Hunter in .308 would be a good start.

They are without doubt some the most accurate out of the box rifles you can buy. The stock of the Tikka lets them down a bit, but aso adds to the cheaper price. The action is smooth and flawless, and one of the better actions out there. Irrespective of your choice make sure you go for a heavy barrel. Trust me on this. A light barrel will be great for easy carrying, but considering the heavy barrel will only add a little bit more weight it is by far the better barrel to go for for multiple shots. If you are looking at informal range work with some hunting in the future i would look at a 24" heavy barrel. Nothing shorter. This will provide you with the specifics you need to do range work out to 600 yards while not giving you a long rifle to get caught up in trees and ditches when out hunting.

What would you reccommend in terms of other kit like optics, bi-pods etc., keeping in mind my current "Jack of all trades, master of none approach"

Try to spend as much on the scope as you would on the rifle. Too many lads buy a top class rifle then top it off with a less than adequate scope as their budget does not push to buying better. Nightforce, Schmidt and Bender, Leupold, Zeiss, IOR, Swar, are all top quality glass, but carry a price range of €900 - €2000 depending on model. You can pick up some great bargains second hand. Have a look through the For Sale/Wanted section for current second hand scopes.

In relation to mag power. You need a good powered scope for the target work but not so powerful as to restrict your field of view when out hunting. A 5-25 power scope would be ideal. This gives you the 25 max mag power for the target work and you can zoom out to 5, 8, 12 power for the hunting work.

In what way do civvie ranges differ?

I'll leave that up to those with more experience than me.

22lr - I had thought about it, butalthough I live in the "country", im only a few miles out of town and there is no land suitable for shooting on. That means id have to pay the 600 quid just to use the 50m range...not really worth it IMO.

If you have experience with firearms then a .22lr is probably not the way to go. If you are a bit "rusty" then the range will provide you with the refresher course you need to get ready before the next deer season. If you were a complete novice i would strongly recommend a .22lr to get used to firearm hadling, safety and general shooting etiquette.

If I went down to Midlands on a Sunday, can you rent a rifle for the day , or do you just mean to have a look around.

Day memberships to ranges are not allowed anymore so you would be a visitor/spectator. That is not to say you cannot pick up a world of information. My advice to you would be to come along next Sunday (27th March). There is another deer shooting competition on then and there will be a huge array of firearms. You can pick the lads brains and see what you like or don't and what suits.

Of course you are welcome to come allong any weekend. Myself or any of the other ROs would be glad to show you around.

As Sparks has mentioned there is also the VCRAI. These lads shoot Vintage rifle, such as Lee Enfields, etc. I will not try and bulls**t you with details as i have never shot it and know little about it other than what i have seen. A few lads here , bunnyshooter springs to mind, has alot of experience with these and will hopefully give more details if you're interested.

Tackleberrywho · 17-03-2011 02:36PM

The Sako 85 are a nice rifle, Although I think the Older 75 are nicer. They are very accurate for a hunting rifle.

The .308 will be cheap enough to feed for Target shooting. Privi Partizan are the cheapest ammo I have heard of for them €16 a box of 20 i think**

If you want to shoot deer the .308 is a great job also.

Start looking for permissions if you can now, The season does not start until Sept 1st but it takes a while to get all your affairs in order, Licences are normally issued in August, but most apply early for them just to get it done and out of the way.

MNSCI run a few Hunter shoots throughout teh year so it's something to do in the off season.

I used to shoot a Swedish Mauser (like a german Mauser except made in Sweden and in 6.5x55 calibre) Some VCRAI guys shoot them, most shoot Lee Enfields as they fired them in there younger days with the PDF/FCA.

http://vcrai.com/

If you are into the Military you may find this interesting.

Marksman20 · 17-03-2011 03:01PM

All great advice, thanks guys

Ive heard that about spending as much on the scope as on the rifle alright. A friend of mine uses an Accuracy International and a Schmitt and Bender, cost him upwards of 4 grand for the pair :eek: I better start savin

I'll definitely be down to the range some Sunday to have a look around. Id be glad to accept any offer to show me around, it would make it a whole lot easier on me. It might not be for a while though, most of my weekends are taken up trainin for my Brigade Rifle Team :rolleyes:...but im not complainin:D

With regard to the hunting,this is the area I know least about. I dont really know anyone who hunts that I could tag along with, so im sort of in the dark. I know you need land owners permission and that, but how would I get started from scratch. If I was a Midlands member, would I be a ble to "join in" with another group of hunters or do you need individual permission? I know id need my own licence anyway.

Cass · 17-03-2011 03:37PM

Marksman20 wrote: »

I know you need land owners permission and that, but how would I get started from scratch.

Three options here.

Get out and start knocking doors. We all had to do it at some stage, and starting is usually the hardest part. You will get knocked back due to the land having lads already shooting it, the lands are part of a gun club or the land owner jst not wanting you to shoot on his/her land. Keep with it. You will get permissions,however slowly or small.
As a member of an authorised range and as your primary interest is in target work this would be your "good reason". From the range you will zero your rifle, get your drops for the different ranges, learn the processes for shooting (wind, holdover, etc), safety, and more importantly develop a base of lads that you may be able to tag along with for a spot of hunting. Come deer season time you will have gotten enough contacts to start asking for your own permissions. Even you only shoot with the lads you have made friends with as a guest on their permissions its a start.
The other option is to lease land from Coilte. Get your own lease and start shooting immediately. You will need to pay for this and there is also the HCAP that must be completed before you can shoot on Coilte land, but its about the "easiest" or best option to guarantee you get shooting.

If I was a Midlands member, would I be a ble to "join in" with another group of hunters or do you need individual permission? I know id need my own licence anyway.

Yes you will need your own deer license, but i have brought a few lads from the range out with me. Not many, and only after i've known them a while because the biggest obstacle you will face is the lads protcting the permissions they have. Its not an easy task to get permissions, and they are protected rigorously.

There a few lads that have met on ranges or through here and organise to bring each other to the others permissions. Its a matter of trust, and as with the permissions it takes tie to build up.

clivej · 17-03-2011 06:37PM

Just to add my couple of cents worth.
I like you wanted a hunting and target rifle and I also knew that to have both was not going to be easy. For the deer hunting I needed a good accurate rifle using an easy to get ammo. For target shooting I needed a good accurate heavy barrel rifle for the extra range.

After ringing all the dealers I could I got a nice second hand Sako 75 laminated fluted barrel in 308. It did all and more than I could ever want from a gun.

Sat on top is a Bushnell elite 4200 6-24x50mm scope that does both for the deer stalking and range use.

Marksman20 · 17-03-2011 07:09PM

Thanks again for all the help everyone, its way more than I ever expected to get.:)
I'll be sure to come back to talk to yez if I have any more questions. Youve been a great help:D

minktrapper · 18-03-2011 08:32PM

Can anyone reccomend any books on the subject

alalkovitch · 24-04-2011 08:48PM

Hi There

Some of the replies not quite accurate with regard to dual calibres,IE: good for deer and target. 6.5x55 is an excellent example of an excellent calibre for both disiplines and you could start off with something like a Tikka T3 heavy 24" barrel which I use myself in 6.5x55 and will shoot extremely well out to 600yrds. Now I accept your not going to compete with a custom rifle in competition but then again even if you built a rifle in the morning its going to take a lot of practice before you compete against guys who are shooting paper all the time.However its an excellent rifle if you want to try both and see how it goes.
Also excellent is the remington 700 XRB Tactical in .308 which comes with a heavy fluted 26" barrel, Bell & Carson Stock and reasonably good trigger which can be simply changed for a Jewel or Timney if you fancy something sweeter. I also have this rifle and its also a lovely machine out to 600 and beyond, once more not going to beat a custom but would let you compete in both disiplines. Use either rifle with custom ammo and you'll see the difference. Also put as much money as you can into the scope, you'll need good glass with fine reticle at distance for target and target turrets a must for quick elevation in the field

Cass · 24-04-2011 09:02PM

alalkovitch wrote: »

Hi There

Some of the replies not quite accurate with regard to dual calibres,IE: good for deer and target. 6.5x55 is an excellent example of an excellent calibre for both disiplines and you could start off with something like a Tikka T3 heavy 24" barrel which I use myself in 6.5x55 and will shoot extremely well out to 600yrds.

When speaking of dual purpose rifles you will see it is meant that no rifle exists that can do both "disciplines" excellently. A rifle is built by the manufacturer with a purpose in mind. However further you can push the rifle the better, but it will never excel past its orginal purpose.

I had a Sauer 6.5x55, 26" barrel. Excellent rifle, and very accurate out to 600yards. After that though the lads with 6.5x284 and 7mm rifles simply sped past me. With that calibre (6.5x55) you are in F-Open comps and you will be facing lads with custom rifles in these calibers that will always have the upper hand.

I agree that for someone starting off a hunting rifle such as the Tikka is an excellent choice, but there is no way a 24" barreled rifle in any caliber will compete with a 30-32" barrelled rifle, custom or factory. My shooting improved slightly by simply buying a 30" barreled .308. Took some of the work out of the shot and gave me extra velocity, less windage, etc.

I'm not arguing the point to be argumentative, but as the OP aked about target shooting i would hate to see him buy a rifle more suited to hunting and realise that he enjoys target work, but now has to change rifle or barrel to compete seriously. Plus as his wish is to compete in reasonably long ranges i'm guessing 800 - 1,000 yards would cover that and a 24" barrelled rifle is just not up to it at those distances.

alalkovitch · 24-04-2011 09:09PM

Good point but he's not going up the mountain with a 28" -32" barrel. I have a 6XC with a 32" barrel and a 7mm and both come in at over 24lbs could'nt see myself hauling either through the woods. I thought he wanted a rifle to try both disiplines and that why I suggested those rifles, as you see I told him he wont compete with a custom but could still join in. I have a Blaser LRS2 which only has a 24" in 6.5x55 and I have shot it to 1000. Not going to beat my 7mm or win the comp but can still take part. However just my take on it

Cass · 24-04-2011 09:28PM

alalkovitch wrote: »

Good point but he's not going up the mountain with a 28" -32" barrel. I have a 6XC with a 32" barrel and a 7mm and both come in at over 24lbs could'nt see myself hauling either through the woods.

Exactly my point and you're 100% correct.

My point is not caliber specific its more the design of the rifle. A friend of mine here was getting terrible stick about his TRG and it not being able to shoot competitively with the rest of the FTR lads. He proved them all wrong by outshooting some of these lads. He will admit himself that he had to work slightly harder than other to achieve the same results, but he got them none the less.

He has since rebarrelled the rifle for a 30" palma, and i for one expect great things from him now. however the rifle might have been good enough for hunting (not ability wise, practicality wise) before the rebarrel, but now i cannot see him dragging his shiney new 30" barrel/rifle through ditches, etc.

I think we are making the same point in different ways. For a starter rifle i would look at something in 26" range. Good enough to get him out to the 800+ distances, good enough to stay competitive, and still good enough to be used as a hunter if thats his bit.

PS - You might want to put your rifles on a diet as 24lbs exceeds the 22lb weight limit for F-Open.

Mr.Flibble · 24-04-2011 09:38PM

alalkovitch wrote: »

I have a 6XC with a 32" barrel and a 7mm and both come in at over 24lbs

Each or together?

alalkovitch · 24-04-2011 09:39PM

Ye they are a bit heavy but not really interested in the competitions anymore, like the long range stuff but just for my own amusement. Shot the first 600 to be held in the Midlands and got the Bronze with my LRS and factory Lapua ammo so I decided to quit while I was ahead;)

alalkovitch · 24-04-2011 09:41PM

Each

Cass · 24-04-2011 09:46PM

That was a while ago. i think i remember you. You were the first/only one at the time with a Blaser. Seen you on the 300 sheltered range. It stood out as i hadn't seen one before and i thought the stock wasn't fully finished. Shame to have such good rifles and not be getting the use out of them.

Would you not consider even going into the Nationals or other such NRAI shoots. Would love to see the 6XC beat the pants of some of the other rifles there.

alalkovitch · 24-04-2011 09:56PM

To be honest I need this summer to get shooting the thing right before I'd be confident about competing with it, weather is only just getting good enough to enjoy it and I need to develop a load that suits it. Its a beautiful piece of kit, Stolle Panda action, Kreiger 32" and stock ( laminated Walnut )made by Enda Walsh and I have a March 80 variable on it but I have only run in the barrel at 200 yrds and I need to put some time in with it. Enda is making a sled for the forend to fit the bag in the rest as I wanted a rounded forend to take the bipod in the field, however the rounded forend is useless in the rest as its continually moving and does not track correctly. Its a work in progress but Looking forward to getting it right

Cass · 24-04-2011 10:18PM

alalkovitch wrote: »

...., Stolle Panda action,

Can't beat the originals.

........... Enda is making a sled for the forend to fit the bag in the rest as I wanted a rounded forend to take the bipod in the field, however the rounded forend is useless in the rest as its continually moving and does not track correctly. Its a work in progress but Looking forward to getting it right

Sounds much like my own. I went for the rounded forend to take the bipod however as mine is for target i had the luxury of getting a wide front end made with 1.25" flat base and rounded sides for bipod OR front rest.

Get up some pictures when she is done. Would like to see it. the stock that is and the rifle when fitted.

alalkovitch · 24-04-2011 10:35PM

Ye she's finished bar the sled which I hope he'll have next week, will take some pic's tomorrow and put them up...take care

Mr.Flibble · 24-04-2011 10:36PM

Ezridax wrote: »

Shame to have such good rifles and not be getting the use out of them.

Would you not consider even going into the Nationals or other such NRAI shoots. Would love to see the 6XC beat the pants of some of the other rifles there.

He's right. Shave a couple of pounds off & shoot the matches.

Winning is a great form of amusement.

Mr.Flibble · 24-04-2011 10:40PM

alalkovitch wrote: »

To be honest I need this summer to get shooting the thing right before I'd be confident about competing with it, weather is only just getting good enough to enjoy it and I need to develop a load that suits it. Its a beautiful piece of kit, Stolle Panda action, Kreiger 32" and stock ( laminated Walnut )made by Enda Walsh and I have a March 80 variable on it but I have only run in the barrel at 200 yrds and I need to put some time in with it. Enda is making a sled for the forend to fit the bag in the rest as I wanted a rounded forend to take the bipod in the field, however the rounded forend is useless in the rest as its continually moving and does not track correctly. Its a work in progress but Looking forward to getting it right

Curious to know why you used a Panda action for such a heavy rifle?

Cass · 24-04-2011 10:45PM

I'm guessing the Panda action is on the 6XC. Its designed for heavy varmint and benchrest style rifles.

Was looking at the new Grizzly Stolle last Wednesday/Thursday. Sweet piece of kit, and not as expensive as say BAT or RPA.

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Want to take up target shooting, advice needed :)

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

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