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Moment of truth for leftists (except scumlord because he likes The Zohan)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    So to answer my question, you do think their families are legitimate targets?

    Well, no actually. If you read what I said, I was wondering why is it ok, when Israel does the exact same thing as Hamas? Now, how you came to your conclusion is certainly beyond me, that would clearly show that I think its wrong when both sides do it, but find it strange its only a problem in the wider world, when its done by Hamas.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    The Hasbra Shills Came to their conclusion about your post
    BECAUSE
    They think its OK to murder the Palestinian family, they have spotted a weakness inherrent in your Humanity, and they WILL exploit it :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    and their families are fair targets too?

    Are the kids fair target?

    Not imo.

    However their parents must take responsibility for placing them in illegal settlements that are against international law. They have gladly taken their place on the frontline in Israel's low level ethnic cleansing campaign against the local people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    karma_ wrote: »
    Clucking bell, some of the most famous left-wingers have been Jews.

    And groups started by them etc. They change politics often though. They changed from being communists in the USA to neo-cons after communism was begining to fail.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    profitius wrote: »
    And groups started by them etc. They change politics often though. They changed from being communists in the USA to neo-cons after communism was begining to fail.

    Jewish voters in the US still tend to sway towards the liberal end of the spectrum. However, Jews are not a monolithic entity which behave in a uniform manner. Yes, there are some prominent Jewish neo-conservatives but there are also some many more on the (American version) liberal end of the spectrum and those that would be considered on the extreme left of the spectrum.

    Also, American right wing Jews are not a recent phenomenon. One just needs to look at Henry Kissenger and Richard Perle as examples.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    The Saint wrote: »
    Jewish voters in the US still tend to sway towards the liberal end of the spectrum. However, Jews are not a monolithic entity which behave in a uniform manner. Yes, there are some prominent Jewish neo-conservatives but there are also some many more on the (American version) liberal end of the spectrum and those that would be considered on the extreme left of the spectrum.

    there are also Israeli leftists and anarchists who attend weekly protests against the west bank settlements in Bilin


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The Saint wrote: »
    Jewish voters in the US still tend to sway towards the liberal end of the spectrum. However, Jews are not a monolithic entity which behave in a uniform manner. Yes, there are some prominent Jewish neo-conservatives but there are also some many more on the (American version) liberal end of the spectrum and those that would be considered on the extreme left of the spectrum.

    Also, American right wing Jews are not a recent phenomenon. One just needs to look at Henry Kissenger and Richard Perle as examples.
    Oh for sure, you get Zionists and Anti-Zionists among the Jewish-American community. Hell you have Zionists in the non-jewish community as well.

    So far though every US Presidency has more or less endorsed the zionist policy likely due in fact to Balance of Power issues in the Middle East, much more than it's about winning over the Jewish voters (though I wager thats just a handy perk)

    I get the sense though some people would drop Israel like a syphilitic prostitute if there was little chance of the Middle East birthing the next superpower. As it stands though the disappearance of Saddam just emboldened the Iranians to strengthen up. Israel is a convenient enough pawn to counter-balance them. Frankly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Overheal wrote: »
    Oh for sure, you get Zionists and Anti-Zionists among the Jewish-American community. Hell you have Zionists in the non-jewish community as well.

    So far though every US Presidency has more or less endorsed the zionist policy likely due in fact to Balance of Power issues in the Middle East, much more than it's about winning over the Jewish voters (though I wager thats just a handy perk)

    I get the sense though some people would drop Israel like a syphilitic prostitute if there was little chance of the Middle East birthing the next superpower. As it stands though the disappearance of Saddam just emboldened the Iranians to strengthen up. Israel is a convenient enough pawn to counter-balance them. Frankly.

    American politicans are beholden to huge sums of money raised by rich jewish groups as opposed to being swayed by any potential massive bloc of jewish votes.

    And yeh, the Christian zionist groups are quite powerful too.

    American politics really needs all that god and gun bo**ocks taken out of it. :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Well the whole thing is just one big religious powder-keg innit.

    Don't get me wrong I'd love to see the Israeli's reap what they've sowed but I also don't want an expansionist Islamic superpower that is going to have the desire to bring on WWIII.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Dudess wrote: »
    And those who are not Israeli but back its state/military do so primarily for two reasons: 1. to sock it to the hippies, 2. islamophobia.

    Your gonna have to find a third unique to me, 'cause I don't tick any of those boxes Dudess.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    ScumLord wrote: »
    It's not really it's just being rational. Nobody can say for a certainty that they will never need to murder another human. It may become necessary for the greater good.

    Ah, "The Greater Good".
    Ever seen the film Hot Fuzz? Perfect example of what can happen when we accept murder in terms of "The Greater Good".
    There is nothing whatsoever in this universe which is worth more than a life. Nothing. It doesn't matter what you're killing for, you're extinguishing another person's existence. In my book, nothing whatsoever can justify this.

    Now in some cases it could be the lesser of two evils. But it's still evil.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,604 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Ariel Sharon was fond of saying you can't do a deal with a unreconstructed terrorist like Arafat.
    It seems Israel can't do with a deal with a moderate like Abbas either, who has reined in the militants on the west bank and who we now know was prepared to make major concessions in peace negotiations. Still all this that wasn't enough for the right-wing ideologues in the Israeli government. Their response to Abbas was to approve more settlements.
    So it's seem clear as long as Bejanmin Nethanyu and the likes of Avigdor Lieberman are in power there will be no peace deal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Correction, there will never be peace as long as one of the parties remains completely immune from any real sanction and is able to utterly disregard intrnational law and human rights.

    There might someday be peace in these circumstances, which will come about when Israel wipes Palestine off the map, a goal which they are slowly and steadily accomplishing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,604 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Correction, there will never be peace as long as one of the parties remains completely immune from any real sanction and is able to utterly disregard intrnational law and human rights.

    .

    Well America is never going to go against Israel at the UN security council. They'll never cut their huge military aid budget to Israel either. These are the ways the present Israeli government might be compelled to respect international law and engage in meaningful peace talks.

    However, if the Israeli labour party got into power outright they would not be wedded to far right nationalists like Libermann, who really do not want a peace deal with the Palestinians as it interferes with their greater Israel vision.
    The Labour party maybe more receptive to making a peace deal with Abbas as they have progressive elements in their ranks who recognise real concessions will have to be made to make peace.What's certain is there will be no peace deal under the current Israeli government. As much as Benjamin Nethanyu may like to portray himself as a partner for peace in interviews with the British press:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I'm sure all the usual angles have been covered, but just incase.

    1) Israel receives criticism because it warrants it.
    2) Stop occupying the land of another nation, and expect them to sit back and accept it.
    3) Stop promoting your soldiers for murdering children like what happened with Iman Al Hams.
    4) Don't think your actions are above international condemnation. If you do something wrong, you will be condemned for it.
    5) Nobody gives a rats if you're jewish, muslim, christian or atheist. If you have to label anyone who objects to Israeli policy as an anti-semite, then you actually have no real arguments and are in defensive mode.

    PS: Sell any nukes to apartheid regimes lately?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    dlofnep wrote: »
    PS: Sell any nukes to apartheid regimes lately?

    Birds of a feather.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Ah, "The Greater Good".
    Ever seen the film Hot Fuzz? Perfect example of what can happen when we accept murder in terms of "The Greater Good".
    There is nothing whatsoever in this universe which is worth more than a life. Nothing. It doesn't matter what you're killing for, you're extinguishing another person's existence. In my book, nothing whatsoever can justify this.

    Now in some cases it could be the lesser of two evils. But it's still evil.
    Evil is an emotive word that I don't like using, I don't believe in evil but I agree with your point more or less.

    The bottom line is if I'm going to kill you, you will more than likely defend yourself, you may like to think you could successfully stop my attempt at murdering you with restraint but in the real world you'll panic and more than likely kill me in desperation. You'd be totally justified in my mind to have killed me in self defence and it may haunt you for the rest of your days despite me being a prick that wanted to kill you.

    You can never say never. You may value life but the rest of the living creatures on this planet including those in the human species won't hold the same moral code as you. You won't know how you'll act until your in that situation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    dlofnep wrote: »
    PS: Sell any nukes to apartheid regimes lately?

    The Vela Incident also suggests a nuclear test by the both of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Settelments and Palestinians - not black and white.

    Please read that news story from today:

    Saving life after massacre: IDF troops, paramedics save life of Palestinian woman giving birth in settlement where the recent murders had accured:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4043536,00.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    Settelments and Palestinians - not black and white.

    Please read that news story from today:

    Saving life after massacre: IDF troops, paramedics save life of Palestinian woman giving birth in settlement where the recent murders had accured:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4043536,00.html

    Nyom Nyom, tasty red herring there.

    Stick to government policies, not the few brave souls who ignore the state-sponsored pogroms against the citizens of another state.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Giving first aid to people in those situation is a government's, army's and security forces policy. I'm from there. I know what I am talking about, and I haven't told bs through this intire thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Settelments and Palestinians - not black and white.

    Please read that news story from today:

    Saving life after massacre: IDF troops, paramedics save life of Palestinian woman giving birth in settlement where the recent murders had accured:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4043536,00.html

    Giving medical treatment to someone in in a life threatening situation is a normal thing to do - any right minded person, Israeli or Palistinian or otherwise, would do the same. What does this demonstrate? That not all Israelis are monsters? we know this already.
    ... a Palestinian cab raced towards the community's entrance. In it, soldiers and paramedics discovered a Palestinian woman in her 20s in advanced stages of labor and facing a life-threatening situation: The umbilical cord was wrapped around the young baby girl's neck, endangering both her and her mother.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    dvpower wrote: »
    Giving medical treatment to someone in in a life threatening situation is a normal thing to do - any right minded person, Israeli or Palistinian or otherwise, would do the same. What does this demonstrate? That not all Israelis are monsters? we know this already.

    and also, that even the Palestinians know that they can get help from the settlers- their enemies supposedly.
    There are many palestiniens that work at these settlements too.

    Some benefit from them. Some want to kill them. Just wanted to say that looking at it as a black and white story is a mistake. Nothing more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    and also, that even the Palestinians know that they can get help from the settlers- their enemies supposedly.
    There are many palestiniens that work at these settlements too.

    Some benefit from them. Some want to kill them. Just wanted to say that looking at it as a black and white story is a mistake. Nothing more.

    I'm sure many settlers are perfectly nice people. Now if only they would go and move off the land they have no legitimate claim to...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 356 ✭✭hoorsmelt


    by Assaf Wohl


    Hello there, global leftist:
    Almost every day, Israel's citizens are told of more displays of hostility by you against us. Often we are informed of various boycotts imposed on Israeli goods, the cancellation of cultural events in Israel, and even attempts to boycott Israeli academia.
    This past week I watched Pink Floyd's Roger Waters urging a boycott on Israel. His arguments included an embarrassing combination of charges, including the finest lies taken from al-Jazeera's propaganda. The most prominent argument was Israel's portrayal as a racist "apartheid state" that sets up a wall separating Arabs and Jews.
    Now, listen to what happened Saturday. One or more terrorists infiltrated the community of Itamar, which is located beyond the protective fence. They butchered five family members with knives, including an 11-year-old child, a four-year-old boy, and a three-months-old baby girl.
    Gaza residents celebrated the massacre, so this is not a case of individual madness. These are the same Palestinians who celebrated the death of thousands at the Twin Towers. These are the same people who are standing at the squares of Tehran, Damascus, Beirut and even Istanbul, screaming "Death to Israel." As it turns out, "Israel" can also be a baby.
    Let's put ideology aside for a moment and only talk numbers. Before the fence was built, premeditated acts of horror were perpetrated within Israel regularly. In 2002 alone, some 189 Israelis were massacred in 53 terror attacks. As the fence kept expanding, hostilities declined, until in 2009 they stood at zero. So these are the numbers.
    My conclusions, which are only premised on the data presented above, are simple: With a fence in place, there are no massacres. Without a fence, hundreds of civilians are massacred. Hence, those interested in removing the fence support the slaughter of Israelis. So why do you, dear leftist, endorse massacres in practice?
    Useful idiots

    Ask yourself the following question: Why do you compare the premeditated slaughter of civilians to unintentional harm to civilians who serve as a human shield for rocket launchers and suicide bombers? There are two possible answers here.
    The first answer, my leftist comrade, is that you're simply an idiot. Don't be insulted, my friend, you're not "just an idiot." You are an idiot of the type Lenin referred to as "useful idiot." What does that mean? You're simply being exploited.
    You are being exploited by global Islam in a bid to eliminate a democratic state. After all, you would not be able to survive even five minutes in the alternative they prepare for you. If you want, you can look into the state of freedom of expression, prosecution of Christians, stoning of women and hanging of homosexuals in the Muslim world.
    You likely believe that you are legitimately criticizing the State of Israel. Yet here you're lying to yourself a little. There is no state like Israel, surrounded by an ocean of billions of people calling for its extermination. Its neighbors, who realized they cannot defeat it on the battlefield, are simply exploiting you: They fire rockets at our kindergartens from the safety behind your back – yes, you, the one calling for boycotts and screaming "apartheid."
    Anti-Semitism

    The second and less flattering possibility is that you're not a "useful idiot," but rather, a mere anti-Semite. Is there another way for you to explain your obsession with Israel? Do you show the same determined disapproval towards China, Iran, Syria, Venezuela or North Korea?
    The campaign against the Jewish state is disproportional in a way that cannot be explained away. I too admit that the Jews are an especially annoying people. Yet we do not tend to explode on buses as a form of revenge; not even in Germany. At most we'll argue with you until you die of boredom.
    Perhaps you believe that you'd be able to clear you conscience of the persecution of Jews and the Holocaust if only you prove that we're worse than you. Perhaps the fact that the annoying Jews, according to the Bible at least, introduced to the world the morality which Islam and Christianity are premised on drives you nuts. Maybe you are interested in highlighting our injustices because someone branded us as the "Chosen People." One way or another, I have no intention to again march into the gas chambers because of a 3,000-year-old story.
    By the way, guess what the next target for extermination is? You really don't know? Go ahead and look in the mirror. In Brussels, Paris, London and Malmo you shall soon be an extinct species fighting for its survival under Islamic laws. And while you're at it at the mirror, look at yourself and say the following: "Now, after I read this, I am no longer a useful idiot. Rather, I am an anti-Semite who is assisting the murder of Jews, in practice."
    Does it seem exaggerated to you? Maybe so. But in the bottom line, as far as the outcome is concerned, this is precisely what you're doing.


    ---
    was originally posted on Ynet http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041263,00.html
    If you're going to link an article, at least link one written by someone with a modicum of historical knowledge: Lenin never called anyone a useful idiot, that was accredited to him by Italian anti-communist newspapers funded by the CIA in the late 1940s. As for the rest of it, arrant rubbish. I boycott Israeli goods out of conscience, not because I'm an anti-Semite. I'm related by blood to Orthodox Jews, my position on Israel has nothing to do with the fact that Israel is a Jewish state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    and also, that even the Palestinians know that they can get help from the settlers- their enemies supposedly.
    There are many palestiniens that work at these settlements too.

    You don't seem to understand - These settlements are not apart of Israel. They are illegal under international law, and yet Israel continues to build them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    The international law doesn't protect Israeli security needs. The international law can't guarantee peaceful borders, so if anything goes wrong from the Israeli point of view, Israel is responsible for itself. Not Irish soldiers or whosoever. When you come to criticise it is very important to know first what the outcomes are.
    For instance, the outcomes of the evacuation from Gaza are: Hamas in power, rockets on ISRAELI LEGAL cities and communities. You can't blame us for being very cautious towards the Palestinians..
    There are illegal settlements even by the Israeli law, which once in a while are being evacuated. Even by force. I agree that it's not enough or even not always effective because some extreme settlers always return back (just put two caravans and here they are.. )
    The settlers claim that this land belongs to Israel because it belonged to us 2 thousands of years ago (there are evidence). However, the big majority of Israel is against those actions.
    As I have mentioned before, Israel is ready to retreat from some territories (if they aren't too built) and compensate the Palestinians with other territories instead the ones it can't returned (too built). It's fair and realistic after so many years of Israeli presents there.
    The issue isn't really if Israel should return lands, but how, and under what guarantees.
    Stop to think: There are over 327,750 people in settlements.
    There are over 185,000 Israelis in east Jerusalem (I'm not sure if they are all jews).
    They do need were to live if there is no immediate development in the peace process.
    Frankly, I and many others would like them to build within Israel, but they do have political power, and until it hasn't been decided, Israel allows them to build under supervision.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The international law doesn't protect Israeli security needs. The international law can't (........)under supervision.

    Would you be good enough to address some of the points raised back here...?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71156499&postcount=92


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Stop to think: There are over 327,750 people in settlements.
    There are over 185,000 Israelis in east Jerusalem (I'm not sure if they are all jews).

    Maybe they should have looked for homes in Israel. :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    "Yes, imagine, Palestinians who hate the people who are occupying their land and settling it. Lets think of the poor soldiers, who lose more to suicide than Palestinian action most years......."
    Ok.. Still, murdering citizens (I'm even not mentioning soldiers) isn't a legitimate way in now days for anyone..
    Suicides? You aren't correct if talking about average, and it's not relevant.

    " O I don't know....maybe if you sent that lot with the guns....the IDF, thats them, and had them close the settlements down..."
    Over 359 thousand people. How many people live in Cork? How? Where would you put them? Can the country afford it? Are all the territories belong to the Palestinians or part of them (should be checked. I'm not sure)? How can you move so much citizens against their will. Even the Palestinians don't expect to get everything back.
    Have you met settlers in your life? Guns? What for? Most of them are not any less peaceful than you.
    What about the points about jeopardizing the border and letting them closer without a solid agreement?

    " Absolute crap, I'm afraid. Abbas has essentially dropped his trousers for Israel, and its still not deemed enough."
    No, he didn't.. If you know something that I don't, you can show.


    " About the closest they get in the West Bank to medical services from Israel is being run over by a military ambulance, generally speaking."
    I meant to Western Jerusalem.

    You are so so not right. They are being operated in Israel on regular bases, hospitalized for a long term. You know how pays for that in many cases? Israel. Cancer treatments and all.. Search that out.
    Have you seen my link from yesterday? Happens too.. Not exactly a bullet in the head.

    " The biggest leak of confidential documents in the history of the Middle East conflict has revealed that Palestinian negotiators secretly agreed to accept Israel's annexation of all but one of the settlements built illegally in occupied East Jerusalem. This unprecedented proposal was one of a string of concessions that will cause shockwaves among Palestinians and in the wider Arab world."
    Yea, but I still remember reading about it, and it wasn't so sweet as presented. I don't remember what. I will read about it again later, if you'd like.

    " Whats the excuse for expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?"
    The six days war opened up after very miserable years for the people in that area and mostly in Jerusalem. Constant fear, bombarding and sniping at the citizens by the Jordanians.
    At that time, there were much fewer Palestinians in the area and many of the lands were no man lands, even that they didn't belong to the Israelis by law – and for that, we should return them under a solid peace process.


    Maybe if the Palestinians and the arab nations agreed to the UN resolution regarding the Israeli and The Palestinian states, we wouldn't have been here.
    If they hadn't attacked in 1948, If the Egyptians hadn't attacked in 56, if the Egyptians, Jordanians and the Syrians hadn't constantly bombarded and terrorized the borders before 67. Do you have any word about the consequences that led to this occupation?


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