Moment of truth for leftists (except scumlord because he likes The Zohan)

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Together with that, it has to be very careful not to allow terrorists in side of Israel, or not to let them harm soldiers who are given with this sisyphic hard job 24/7.

Yes, imagine, Palestinians who hate the people who are occupying their land and settling it. Lets think of the poor soldiers, who lose more to suicide than Palestinian action most years.......

The Israeli wrote: »

Israel would freeze the development beyound the green line. However it's not really possible. Some of the places there have gone relatively big, and the people that live there demand forther developmnt because that the population grows.

O I don't know....maybe if you sent that lot with the guns....the IDF, thats them, and had them close the settlements down...

The Israeli wrote: »

We have people that live in settelments and while the palestinians are not in the position of seriously negotiating they will continue to live there and build. I can't say if they overbuild there or not. I don't know about that enough. I guess that in some areas they do, and in some areas there is a great shortage of places to live in.

.............

Absolute crap, I'm afraid. Abbas has essentially dropped his trousers for Israel, and its still not deemed enough.

The Israeli wrote: »

Did you know that the people in the west bank get all the medical services from Israel as other Israeli citizens
.............

About the closest they get in the West Bank to medical services from Israel is being run over by a military ambulance, generally speaking.

The biggest leak of confidential documents in the history of the Middle East conflict has revealed that Palestinian negotiators secretly agreed to accept Israel's annexation of all but one of the settlements built illegally in occupied East Jerusalem. This unprecedented proposal was one of a string of concessions that will cause shockwaves among Palestinians and in the wider Arab world.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession

The Israeli wrote: »

Israel f*** up from Gaza, and what? Have they become more peaceful or showed any sign that they are willing to become more peaceful are ready to sit and negotiate? Not at all..

Whats the excuse for expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

biko

The best thing to come from Israel lately - Esh Al Hapanim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJBIBYn4-3g

TwoShedsJackson

My Struggle

wes

The more I hear from Israel apologists, the less sympathy I have for the country. Israel has engaged in plenty of aggression of its own, and we are constantly asked to conveniently forget that. Sorry, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

The Saint

The Israeli wrote: »

The saint, I can tell you right now that I agree with 99% of the things you have mentioned. I know that their life is hard. Also, you know many details that I don't know, so I in order for me to answer on every claim, I will have to study a lot more.
however, I also just look at it from the point: what is the alternative?

The alternative is to stop building settlements and engage in serious negotiations. It is the Israeli side that seems incapable of negotiation as it knows that in any negotiation it will not come out looking reasonable since this government at least seems absolutely unwilling to compromise on anything.

The Israeli wrote: »

Did you know that the people in the west bank get all the medical services from Israel as other Israeli citizens? They also get paid with the national insurance money on monthly bases. They wouldn't get this good benits if they lived completely under the Palestinian athorities.

This isn't true unfortunately except for Jerusalem ID holders. West Bank ID holder are usually not permitted into Israel or even occupied Palestinian East Jerusalem for medical care and recieve no services from Israel. Even some Jerusalem ID holders on the West Bank side of the Barrier are taxed as Israelis and revieve absolutlely no services from the municipality.

The Israeli wrote: »

We have people that live in settelments and while the palestinians are not in the position of seriously negotiating they will continue to live there and build. I can't say if they overbuild there or not. I don't know about that enough. I guess that in some areas they do, and in some areas there is a great shortage of places to live in.

I think if you actually look at the situation objectively you cannot say that the PA has not being bending over backwards and giving away everything in order to get a peace deal with Israel. You just need to look at the Palestine Papers to see that they were willing to give up a lot of what is theirs under international law. You can can also look at the Arab Peace Initiative which every Arab state voted for that calls for full recognition and normalisation of relations with Israel for a return to its legal borders. Israel has yet to provide a serious peace proposal

The Israeli wrote: »

Another outcome of the settelments is that they phisically shield Israel from the Palestinians. They take a lot of the fire on themselves and give the Israeli mainland some breathing space. Therefor, Israel isn't keen about evacoating them without a solid peace process.

The idea of putting civilians in the West Bank and a protective buffer to protect civilians is a bit of a contradiction, no? This arguement never made sense to me. Why would you put civilians in harms way in an action that is only likely to incite to protect civilians? It is completely counter productive. Furthermore, if civilians are being placed in the West Bank for the expressed intention of acting as a military defensive meansure then they are by definition no longer civilians and can therefore be legally targetted, of course with the exception of children. However, since I don't believe that the intention of placeing settlers in the West Bank is of a military intent then I do not believe that settlers are legitimate military targets. Also, why are there settlements running down the Jordan Valley, on nearly every hilltop in Nablus and in Ariel, places not exactly adjacent to the Green Line?

The Israeli wrote: »

If we won't protect ourselves Israeli people will get murdered. As conciquance of that protection, many palestinians suffer. What's next?
It's the milion dollars question.

Read my previous post again as well as this one and please let me know how the actions I have cited increase the security of Israelis? To me it seems that contrary to increasing the security of Israel, these actions serve to incite and place people in desperate situations. It is then that logic and restraint fail and violence prevails. I want to see Israel live in peace and security. However, I believe its actions are counter productive to this goal.

The Israeli wrote: »

Many westerners think that if you give to the Arab nations benefits, democracy and human rights they will cease all violance and become like them.
It doesn't work in most cases, unfortunately. Maybe with after many years, but not just like that. There are many examples to that.

This is a whole other thread but it is not correct to say that Arabs are incapable of democracy. There are very few examples of Arab states actually having one since independence. This is for different reasons that are not really relevant to this thread. However, the PA have pretty much all the institutions of a state and functioning civil society in the West Bank.

Archie D Bunker

I received an email with a link to pictures of the massacre committed in Itamar on the weekend.
Have to warn you - these are hard to watch, especially the last one of the father and the 3 month old baby girl.
How someone can slaughter a 3 month old baby is beyond my comprehension.
https://picasaweb.google.com/picsyesha/Itamar#

Wibbs

Sisko wrote: »

It will be impossible for the world the sympathise with Israel when all the issues are the result of them stealing land after the 6 day war.

Israel kicked a lot of ass in the 6 day war, fair play to them. They should have kicked ass and went home, but no, instead, they decided to pull a hitler and steal loads of land around them. WTF is wrong with countries that do this, where is that basic understanding of right and wrong?

In the end it doesn't matter what atrocities Palestinians commit as Israel are the invaders, they are the ones in the wrong, they are 'the bad guys'.

How could you expect people to sympathise with you if you broke into your neighbours house, shot the parents, drove their kids out of the house into the backgarden and moved half your family in instead? Hard to feel like the kids are the ones in the wrong if they attack your family from the back garden....

If Israel did pull back to its own borders and Palestinians kept attacking world opinion would pull a U-Turn and fully support Israel.

& you kidding yourself if you just think its the leftists that are not happy with what Israel is doing. Its widely viewed as a rogue state, just like NK and Iran cept for the fact that the US supports them.

This pretty much.

If Israel did pull back to its own borders and Palestinians kept attacking world opinion would pull a U-Turn and fully support Israel.

It would be worth a try. Now I strongly suspect the Palestinians would keep attacking. Or at least enough of the Islamist hotheads would. It's not exactly a Jew friendly religion.

As for the Jewish hotheads? I have to laugh at the Israeli's suggestion that many of the religious Jews aren't as bad. They are just as bad and their faith is just as xenophobic.

Tahuti

And the beat goes on...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/13/israel-expand-settlements-family-killing?INTCMP=SRCH

biko

Remember nuclear tech Mordechai Vanunu that told the world about Israels nuke program in 1986? Israel kept him for 11 years in solitary confinement so he wouldn't divulge any more secrets.

In 2004, former Mossad director Shabtai Shavit told Reuters that the option of extrajudicial execution was considered in 1986, but rejected because "Jews don't do that to other Jews."

Current Israeli kidnapping: "Wife of Dirar Abu Sisi, deputy director of Gaza's power plant, alleges Mossad abducted her husband in the Ukraine in order to sabotage the Strip's electrical grid."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-official-israel-kidnapped-palestinian-engineer-from-ukraine-1.348413

Archie D Bunker

Tahuti wrote: »

And the beat goes on...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/13/israel-expand-settlements-family-killing?INTCMP=SRCH

Actually, a better response to the massacre than another IDF operation resulting in many dead Palestinians.

What would you suggest the Israelis do in response to the massacre? Turn the other cheek?

arybvtcw0eolkf

biko wrote: »

The best thing to come from Israel lately - Esh Al Hapanim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJBIBYn4-3g

I'll see your Esh Al Hapanim and raise you - Idan Raichel

Tahuti

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Actually, a better response to the massacre than another IDF operation resulting in many dead Palestinians.

What would you suggest the Israelis do in response to the massacre? Turn the other cheek?

How about engaging in peace talks, and actually following through on their commitments?

Nodin

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Actually, a better response to the massacre than another IDF operation resulting in many dead Palestinians.
?

Considering the settlement building is the cause of most of the violence, not really, no.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

What would you suggest the Israelis do in response to the massacre? Turn the other cheek?

Stop building illegal settlements. Which is what they should have done before as well.

wes

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Actually, a better response to the massacre than another IDF operation resulting in many dead Palestinians.

What would you suggest the Israelis do in response to the massacre? Turn the other cheek?

So the Israeli's have decided to put more of there civilians in danger instead? Complete and utter insanity is what the Israeli's are constantly engaged in. More settlers will cause more violence on both sides, as the settlers have never been peaceful themselves.

Also, how should Palestinians respond to the constant attacks and murder from Israeli settlers (not to mention the Israeli state) exactly? Both sides need to stop the violence, and more settlements will result in more violence, as they are maintained by the IDF, and are essentially an act of war.

Archie D Bunker

wes wrote: »

Also, how should Palestinians respond to the constant attacks and murder from Israeli settlers (not to mention the Israeli state) exactly? Both sides need to stop the violence, and more settlements will result in more violence, as they are maintained by the IDF, and are essentially an act of war.

Show me one case where an Israeli slaughtered a 3 month old baby like that...

There is a big difference between innocents killed unintentionally during army operations and this kind of barbarism.

And sorry, in my opinion land grabbing does not justify murder.

wes

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Show me one case where an Israeli slaughtered a 3 month old baby like that...

I am sure you can do the search your self of Israeli's murdering children. Plenty of easy to find examples, but here is one:

"I shall not hate"

Its sad there is always someone who will defend a group of vile murderers like the IDF.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

There is a big difference between innocents killed unintentionally during army operations and this kind of barbarism.

The IDF kill civilians on purpose, and even use them as Human Shields on a regular basis. Again, plenty of proof of what a bunch of vile murderous thugs the IDF, and your beloved settlers are.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

And sorry, in my opinion land grabbing does not justify murder.

Your beloved land grabbers are murderers btw. Plenty of examples of those psychopaths murdering people. Its very simple, the settlers are attacking the Palestinians, and they are in effect putting themselves in harms way for there insane ideological reason. This doesn't justify there deaths (unless they engage in violence in which case Palestinian have a right to defend themselves), but there hardly innocent flower children either. Its amazing the excuses people will present for one of the main causes of violence in this conflict. Truly amazing that some choose to defend the indefensible, and are essentially supporting more and more violence, with the apologetics for the truly insane settlers.

The murder of those settlers was wrong, but the simple fact remains that the Israeli government have purposefully put there own citizens in danger by putting them on Palestinian land. The settlers have no business there to begin with, and should be removed for the sakes of all involved, with the exeption of those who want ethernal war.

The Saint

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

And sorry, in my opinion land grabbing does not justify murder.

..and murder doesn't justify settlements. Bizarre decision IMO.

dolphin city

The Israeli wrote: »

by Assaf Wohl


Hello there, global leftist:
Almost every day, Israel's citizens are told of more displays of hostility by you against us. Often we are informed of various boycotts imposed on Israeli goods, the cancellation of cultural events in Israel, and even attempts to boycott Israeli academia.
This past week I watched Pink Floyd's Roger Waters urging a boycott on Israel. His arguments included an embarrassing combination of charges, including the finest lies taken from al-Jazeera's propaganda. The most prominent argument was Israel's portrayal as a racist "apartheid state" that sets up a wall separating Arabs and Jews.
Now, listen to what happened Saturday. One or more terrorists infiltrated the community of Itamar, which is located beyond the protective fence. They butchered five family members with knives, including an 11-year-old child, a four-year-old boy, and a three-months-old baby girl.
Gaza residents celebrated the massacre, so this is not a case of individual madness. These are the same Palestinians who celebrated the death of thousands at the Twin Towers. These are the same people who are standing at the squares of Tehran, Damascus, Beirut and even Istanbul, screaming "Death to Israel." As it turns out, "Israel" can also be a baby.
Let's put ideology aside for a moment and only talk numbers. Before the fence was built, premeditated acts of horror were perpetrated within Israel regularly. In 2002 alone, some 189 Israelis were massacred in 53 terror attacks. As the fence kept expanding, hostilities declined, until in 2009 they stood at zero. So these are the numbers.
My conclusions, which are only premised on the data presented above, are simple: With a fence in place, there are no massacres. Without a fence, hundreds of civilians are massacred. Hence, those interested in removing the fence support the slaughter of Israelis. So why do you, dear leftist, endorse massacres in practice?
Useful idiots

Ask yourself the following question: Why do you compare the premeditated slaughter of civilians to unintentional harm to civilians who serve as a human shield for rocket launchers and suicide bombers? There are two possible answers here.
The first answer, my leftist comrade, is that you're simply an idiot. Don't be insulted, my friend, you're not "just an idiot." You are an idiot of the type Lenin referred to as "useful idiot." What does that mean? You're simply being exploited.
You are being exploited by global Islam in a bid to eliminate a democratic state. After all, you would not be able to survive even five minutes in the alternative they prepare for you. If you want, you can look into the state of freedom of expression, prosecution of Christians, stoning of women and hanging of homosexuals in the Muslim world.
You likely believe that you are legitimately criticizing the State of Israel. Yet here you're lying to yourself a little. There is no state like Israel, surrounded by an ocean of billions of people calling for its extermination. Its neighbors, who realized they cannot defeat it on the battlefield, are simply exploiting you: They fire rockets at our kindergartens from the safety behind your back – yes, you, the one calling for boycotts and screaming "apartheid."
Anti-Semitism

The second and less flattering possibility is that you're not a "useful idiot," but rather, a mere anti-Semite. Is there another way for you to explain your obsession with Israel? Do you show the same determined disapproval towards China, Iran, Syria, Venezuela or North Korea?
The campaign against the Jewish state is disproportional in a way that cannot be explained away. I too admit that the Jews are an especially annoying people. Yet we do not tend to explode on buses as a form of revenge; not even in Germany. At most we'll argue with you until you die of boredom.

Perhaps you believe that you'd be able to clear you conscience of the persecution of Jews and the Holocaust if only you prove that we're worse than you. Perhaps the fact that the annoying Jews, according to the Bible at least, introduced to the world the morality which Islam and Christianity are premised on drives you nuts. Maybe you are interested in highlighting our injustices because someone branded us as the "Chosen People." One way or another, I have no intention to again march into the gas chambers because of a 3,000-year-old story.
By the way, guess what the next target for extermination is? You really don't know? Go ahead and look in the mirror. In Brussels, Paris, London and Malmo you shall soon be an extinct species fighting for its survival under Islamic laws. And while you're at it at the mirror, look at yourself and say the following: "Now, after I read this, I am no longer a useful idiot. Rather, I am an anti-Semite who is assisting the murder of Jews, in practice."
Does it seem exaggerated to you? Maybe so. But in the bottom line, as far as the outcome is concerned, this is precisely what you're doing.


---
was originally posted on Ynet http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041263,00.html

hey, stop getting your thong in a twist pet.

Tahuti

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

There is a big difference between innocents killed unintentionally during army operations and this kind of barbarism.

All children are innocent. How is the murder of one any more or less barbaric than the other?

The difference is semantic only.

CrazyRabbit

Murderous barbaric idiots on both sides.

The OP demonstrates the hatred that will delay, or even prevent permanent peace in the region.

Both sides are so busy pointing fingers of blame at each other that they don't realise that they are both acting like 4 years olds throwing a tantrum.

Eve_Dublin

I met a lot of Israelis fresh out of the army when I was travelling in South America. Contrary to the bad reputation they have over there when they go in large groups, I found those who travelled alone to be lovely but their blinkered view of what their country was doing was disgusting. I was hanging out with a group of 3 guys right around the time when Israeli was blowing the shiit out of the Gaza in late 2008/early 2009 in an unjustified air strike. One of them explained to me that I didn't understand, that they had to get rid of the "shiiit" to get to the "terrorists"....the shiiit they were talking about were the innocent civilians and the other 2 agreed. I got up and walked off. Needless to say I haven't been in touch with them since. Even when they were so obviously in the wrong, they justified their actions. Even when the very next day there were massive protests against their actions in the city we were in. Completely and utterly brainwashed. Everyone else is wrong and you're right. Ffs.

I've yet to meet an Isaeli who takes even one iota of responsibility for what's happening there. It makes it impossible to have any degree of sympathy with you guys.

up for anything

The Israeli wrote: »

Now, listen to what happened Saturday. One or more terrorists infiltrated the community of Itamar, which is located beyond the protective fence. They butchered five family members with knives, including an 11-year-old child, a four-year-old boy, and a three-months-old baby girl.

latenia wrote: »

How do they know this was a 'terrorist' seeing as nobody has been caught? The nature of the attack suggests something domestic or a random psychopath to me rather than a political act.

The first thing that came to my mind on reading this awful story was the CIA, and I don't even post in the conspiracy forum. I've been reading too many thrillers again.

goose2005

teddy_303 wrote: »

Get off their land and stop using the hollocaust as a licence to commit war crimes and acts of depravity, against civillians using illegal weapons on children and the elderly, as a form of collective punishment, by your murderous unconscionable government. pfft.

Do you think all of the post-war displacement of peoples should be reversed? Give Prussia back to the Germans? Send the Greeks who were in Turkey back there, and send the Turks who were in Greece back there? Should the ethnic Albanians who went to Kosovo during the Balkan wars be sent back to Albania? Expel the prods from the north?

goose2005

tricky D wrote: »

Yawn.

The Shoah, almost all of us here weren't alive at the time. Our consciences are perfectly clear.

We weren't alive in 1948 either...

wes

goose2005 wrote: »

We weren't alive in 1948 either...

If things ended in 1948, you would have a point, but seeing the land grabbing is still going on today (you can see a link to that earlier), I think it fair to say your comparison is not exactly accurate.

K-9

Reminds me of what a cesspit Northern Ireland used to be.

Nodin

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Show me one case where an Israeli slaughtered a 3 month old baby like that...

There is a big difference between innocents killed unintentionally during army operations and this kind of barbarism.

.

Really? What about innocents dying like this?

More than 60 Palestinian women have given birth at Israeli checkpoints since 2000 and 36 of their babies have died as a result, says a UN report.

Prepared by the High Commissioner for Human Rights, it examines the impact of the checkpoints on pregnant women. The report says the delays force women to give birth unaided and some women and their children die as a result.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4274400.stm

And of course, one can always buy the t-shirt
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-raps-soldiers-for-images-of-dead-palestinian-babies-on-t-shirts-1.273270

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

Reminds me of what a cesspit Northern Ireland used to be.

Its worse, jaysus help them.

NTMK

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Show me one case where an Israeli slaughtered a 3 month old baby like that...

There is a big difference between innocents killed unintentionally during army operations and this kind of barbarism.

And sorry, in my opinion land grabbing does not justify murder.

the bombing of schools and bombing runs when school kids got out were intentional, barbaric and not justified

prinz

Abbas had it right. Then the dopey berks ok more housing....and round it goes.