The Irish Dating/Sex/Virginity/Women/Men Relationship Defining Debate

donfers · 15-02-2011 2:18am

some very interesting viewpoints here and i'd agree with a lot of stuff being said particularly about a certain type of Irish being quite parochial and only interested in communicating based on what her needs or interests are

however I would stress that this is a type of Irish woman and not representative of Irish women in general

unfortunately that boringly self-obsessed entitled type is most frequently found in the 17-29 age group and you'll more than likely bump into a few of these on a random night out and thus write off all Irish women because of this dreadful type

let us though consider two issues relating to the boringly self-obsessed entitled type

1. often there is a deep insecurity at play

2. often there is something beyond the self-obsessed entitled front and it might be a vulnerable, interesting, thoughtful lady, the question is do you want to go through all the trouble, time and effort to root out the decent person hiding within

personally at this stage i can't be bothered with the bs and games involved in process 2 and just go for the types who are decent from the get-go, oh and often despite effort, time and trouble there is little underneath the self-obsessed entitled front returning us again to issue 1 which is a deep insecurity based on the fact that this type isn't very interesting at all and believes herself to have no real value apart from what she can eek out of others and who she can associate herself with so in the long run this vaccuum of any discernible personality and deep psychological problems masked by parasitic tendencies are well worth avoiding

I would suggest though to choose your places wisely, the trendy fashionable nightclubs with strict door code are likely to attract lots of these types whereas the more laidback underground places will perhaps have more open-minded types although you do get an element of people trying to be trendy or going there because its fashionable

so conclusion go to an out-of-fashion rundown bar/club/pub with a laid-back vibe, relaxed door policy that is never likely to be cool

guitarzero · 15-02-2011 10:19am

donfers wrote: »

some very interesting viewpoints here and i'd agree with a lot of stuff being said particularly about a certain type of Irish being quite parochial and only interested in communicating based on what her needs or interests are

however I would stress that this is a type of Irish woman and not representative of Irish women in general

unfortunately that boringly self-obsessed entitled type is most frequently found in the 17-29 age group and you'll more than likely bump into a few of these on a random night out and thus write off all Irish women because of this dreadful type

let us though consider two issues relating to the boringly self-obsessed entitled type

1. often there is a deep insecurity at play

2. often there is something beyond the self-obsessed entitled front and it might be a vulnerable, interesting, thoughtful lady, the question is do you want to go through all the trouble, time and effort to root out the decent person hiding within

personally at this stage i can't be bothered with the bs and games involved in process 2 and just go for the types who are decent from the get-go, oh and often despite effort, time and trouble there is little underneath the self-obsessed entitled front returning us again to issue 1 which is a deep insecurity based on the fact that this type isn't very interesting at all and believes herself to have no real value apart from what she can eek out of others and who she can associate herself with so in the long run this vaccuum of any discernible personality and deep psychological problems masked by parasitic tendencies are well worth avoiding

I would suggest though to choose your places wisely, the trendy fashionable nightclubs with strict door code are likely to attract lots of these types whereas the more laidback underground places will perhaps have more open-minded types although you do get an element of people trying to be trendy or going there because its fashionable

so conclusion go to an out-of-fashion rundown bar/club/pub with a laid-back vibe, relaxed door policy that is never likely to be cool

Interesting post. Where are these trendy bars btw?
There have been a few consistencies from my own experience.

He who dares wins. I have a friend, not attractive and a bit of a 'howya' and he gets all types of good looking women. I couldnt get my head around it but one thing he does have is a charm in abundance. He doesnt care about the outcome as long as hes having fun.

Silence. Irish women hate any form of awkward silence or even a breather. They tend to expect you to continuosly entertain them, stimulate their minds, this kinda brings me back to charm again.

Attitude. Be happy, very bloody happy, and show it or fake it. Even if your not feeling good, just force laughter, otherwise they assume your uninteresting and depressed, that scares the crap out of them more than a blood stain shirt.

Keep the conversation trivial, nothing that requires too much thought. Although women like a challenge it seems like its one of worth i.e teasing, a wee bit of slagging, not intellectual, you'll leave them in the center of nowhere using that.

Try establish some rhythm of dialogue if shes interested, if within 2,3 mins your still making a strong effort then I think your flogging a dead horse.

YOU make all the effort, 100%. Its right down to you. You, You, You, You, You, You. You set the tone, the content, you do everything, its perhaps as close to an interview as it gets. Irish women and men are not equal despite this political correctness nonsense, this isnt France. Irish women in general tend not to say much on first encounters, they are simply jugding you and laugh every so often to make it seem like its not an interview, it is, but for a much better job if you succeed.

Mirror their behaviour, this is one of those nlp things. Irish women are easily excitable, ages 4 - Menopause. In fact you may notice very little between a 4 yr old and a 29 yr old Irish girl on a night out until you actually see them after hearing them. Screaming and shouting, pretending to be angry etc, huffing and then laughing and then pouting. Get in to that zone. Get into the play zone, doesnt matter, this is Dublin you're in now. Tom Foolery all the way so get drinkin.

Never be serious, ever.

I'm sure you've seen these lads with the trimmed beards, the hat, the top man T shirt thats a bit to small, tight jeans and chains. Yes, I loath them too but they get women because their dress up states "I love myself, therefor worthy of love". They are assertive even though almost everything they say warrants a smack to the jaw. But if they have a strong sense of self, it strengthens what they say. So dress to kill and be assertive, women actually fall for all your crap believe it or not, men see right through it but you arent lookinn to get a man.

Have a few interesting stories, quirks, figures of speech, this is a form of magic. It creates intrigue, make up a story, I do it all the time, basically lie with no hesitation, EVERYONE around you is doing it so get on that.

Remind yourself that if it doesnt work then you can, within 3 mins try again, the night hasnt suddenly drawn to a close cuz you got the elbow. Get up soldier, reload your eh...weapon. Learn from the mistake but dont give it too much energy. Everyone gets rejected. If the Dub shoots you down go for a country girl and you'll see the nights still young.

Nothing worse than going home in the taxi with all your mates and suddenly feeling that feeling of 'I should have just went up etc', now you're off to your laptop and even that is no consolation. Remember this when you are out. Remember the taxi ride home, the night link. Remember how bad you want it, remind yourself that, get in touch with that and conduct your intentions by it. Stop playing the victim of how Dublin women suck. Yes, in general they do but this is the hand you were given so do the work.

coffee_cake · 15-02-2011 10:22am

I'm just gobsmacked at above post.

guitarzero · 15-02-2011 10:32am

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm just gobsmacked at above post.

Then I take it you arent from around here.

donfers · 15-02-2011 6:43pm

guitarzero wrote: »

Interesting post. Where are these trendy bars btw?
There have been a few consistencies from my own experience.

He who dares wins. I have a friend, not attractive and a bit of a 'howya' and he gets all types of good looking women. I couldnt get my head around it but one thing he does have is a charm in abundance. He doesnt care about the outcome as long as hes having fun.

Silence. Irish women hate any form of awkward silence or even a breather. They tend to expect you to continuosly entertain them, stimulate their minds, this kinda brings me back to charm again.

Attitude. Be happy, very bloody happy, and show it or fake it. Even if your not feeling good, just force laughter, otherwise they assume your uninteresting and depressed, that scares the crap out of them more than a blood stain shirt.

Keep the conversation trivial, nothing that requires too much thought. Although women like a challenge it seems like its one of worth i.e teasing, a wee bit of slagging, not intellectual, you'll leave them in the center of nowhere using that.

Try establish some rhythm of dialogue if shes interested, if within 2,3 mins your still making a strong effort then I think your flogging a dead horse.

YOU make all the effort, 100%. Its right down to you. You, You, You, You, You, You. You set the tone, the content, you do everything, its perhaps as close to an interview as it gets. Irish women and men are not equal despite this political correctness nonsense, this isnt France. Irish women in general tend not to say much on first encounters, they are simply jugding you and laugh every so often to make it seem like its not an interview, it is, but for a much better job if you succeed.

Mirror their behaviour, this is one of those nlp things. Irish women are easily excitable, ages 4 - Menopause. In fact you may notice very little between a 4 yr old and a 29 yr old Irish girl on a night out until you actually see them after hearing them. Screaming and shouting, pretending to be angry etc, huffing and then laughing and then pouting. Get in to that zone. Get into the play zone, doesnt matter, this is Dublin you're in now. Tom Foolery all the way so get drinkin.

Never be serious, ever.

I'm sure you've seen these lads with the trimmed beards, the hat, the top man T shirt thats a bit to small, tight jeans and chains. Yes, I loath them too but they get women because their dress up states "I love myself, therefor worthy of love". They are assertive even though almost everything they say warrants a smack to the jaw. But if they have a strong sense of self, it strengthens what they say. So dress to kill and be assertive, women actually fall for all your crap believe it or not, men see right through it but you arent lookinn to get a man.

Have a few interesting stories, quirks, figures of speech, this is a form of magic. It creates intrigue, make up a story, I do it all the time, basically lie with no hesitation, EVERYONE around you is doing it so get on that.

Remind yourself that if it doesnt work then you can, within 3 mins try again, the night hasnt suddenly drawn to a close cuz you got the elbow. Get up soldier, reload your eh...weapon. Learn from the mistake but dont give it too much energy. Everyone gets rejected. If the Dub shoots you down go for a country girl and you'll see the nights still young.

Nothing worse than going home in the taxi with all your mates and suddenly feeling that feeling of 'I should have just went up etc', now you're off to your laptop and even that is no consolation. Remember this when you are out. Remember the taxi ride home, the night link. Remember how bad you want it, remind yourself that, get in touch with that and conduct your intentions by it. Stop playing the victim of how Dublin women suck. Yes, in general they do but this is the hand you were given so do the work.

I'd agree with some of that, quite a brave post I have to say.

I'm particularly fascinated by how a lot of irish women communicate when meeting men on a night out and I believe your analysis is accurate

I have lived in 5 different countries and have dated women of more nationalities that I can rememeber and I have to say, in general Irish women especially in the early stages, are the least interesting to interact with, as you say it's all about impressing them and they sit in judgement as you do your court jester act hoping to win her over, that can be fun if you're drunk and if you like the chase and all that but it gets tiresome after a while if all the communication is going in one direction, i think many Irish women are quite amateurish in their approach to dating and have gotten all their information from hollywood rom-coms or gossip mags or chick-lit books which are full of cliches and stereotypes, one of them being that she should play hard to get - that works up to a point but many overplay that card, yet there are plenty of drunken desperate gombeens out there who would walk barefoot over a burning fire to get a shot at a bit of naughty so i guess many of the women are just playing to a part of the market here but in that case they shouldn't bitch and moan that they do indeed end up dating a drunken desperate gombeen because that's all their dating approach was ever going to snare

first time i went to paris i was astounded by the difference in how the women conducted themselves, on my first night out there, almost every random woman i met there had something interesting to say about philosophy or politics or the arts, ya fair enough sometimes it can be a tad pretentious, but there they actually like to debate, they sneer at stuff like the x-factor and reality tv, oh and they are far far more confident about expressing their sexuality.......it was so refreshing to not to have impress someone like an eager little lapdog doing tricks and talking bollocks and to instead have a real conversation about real issues and not feel embarrassed or ostracised by engaging in some intellectual discourse...then again I guess if i grow up a parisian and was always getting into these heavyweight political debates i'd yearn for the irish way of doing things, drinking loads and talking crap and the woman just letting me spout garbage at her all night, smiling and laughing occassionally or feigning disgust at my party tricks and bad jokes in my quest to get some by the end of the night

overall though i like their mating dance better

nyarlothothep · 15-02-2011 7:16pm

donfers wrote: »

I'd agree with some of that, quite a brave post I have to say.

I'm particularly fascinated by how a lot of irish women communicate when meeting men on a night out and I believe your analysis is accurate

I have lived in 5 different countries and have dated women of more nationalities that I can rememeber and I have to say, in general Irish women especially in the early stages, are the least interesting to interact with, as you say it's all about impressing them and they sit in judgement as you do your court jester act hoping to win her over, that can be fun if you're drunk and if you like the chase and all that but it gets tiresome after a while if all the communication is going in one direction, i think many Irish women are quite amateurish in their approach to dating and have gotten all their information from hollywood rom-coms or gossip mags or chick-lit books which are full of cliches and stereotypes, one of them being that she should play hard to get - that works up to a point but many overplay that card, yet there are plenty of drunken desperate gombeens out there who would walk barefoot over a burning fire to get a shot at a bit of naughty so i guess many of the women are just playing to a part of the market here but in that case they shouldn't bitch and moan that they do indeed end up dating a drunken desperate gombeen because that's all their dating approach was ever going to snare

first time i went to paris i was astounded by the difference in how the women conducted themselves, on my first night out there, almost every random woman i met there had something interesting to say about philosophy or politics or the arts, ya fair enough sometimes it can be a tad pretentious, but there they actually like to debate, they sneer at stuff like the x-factor and reality tv, oh and they are far far more confident about expressing their sexuality.......it was so refreshing to not to have impress someone like an eager little lapdog doing tricks and talking bollocks and to instead have a real conversation about real issues and not feel embarrassed or ostracised by engaging in some intellectual discourse...then again I guess if i grow up a parisian and was always getting into these heavyweight political debates i'd yearn for the irish way of doing things, drinking loads and talking crap and the woman just letting me spout garbage at her all night, smiling and laughing occassionally or feigning disgust at my party tricks and bad jokes in my quest to get some by the end of the night

overall though i like their mating dance better

This is why emigration kicks ass. I've noticed that too, that there is a higher ratio of foreign women who can actually talk about topics of substance, although you'll get the odd Irish woman who can discuss the same. But yeah Paris ftw.

hoorsmelt · 15-02-2011 7:45pm

A significant part of the problem imo is that it's very rare for there to be interaction between the sexes outside of drinking. On the continent, you can go for a coffee or do something with a friend of the opposite sex without the whole world assuming there's something going on. If I go to visit a friend while in Dublin and go for a coffee with her, I get 'knowing' winks and insinuations from all the lads when I come back. This goes for many other people I know too. We're conditioned to see the opposite sex as either potential spouses or family whereas it shouldn't have to be the case. The only potential exception to this rule that's common enough is people's relationships with their roommates. Although I suppose in a way they half count as family seeing as you're living with them.

Jup1ter · 17-02-2011 10:13am

All interesting points, however from a non-irish point of view I think all countries have the same issues....
Men will complain that women are not approachable and women will complain that men are pigs.
One thing that i have surely noticed is that maybe when we are outside our own country we behave differently without knowing and maybe, being a "foreigner" already provides a good basis for interesting conversation

Sure, socialising in Ireland means mostly going to the pub and that's probably not the best place since the music can be too loud to talk and minds can be dazed by too much drinking to be able to string two sentences together.
Approaching the opposite sex (men or women) is never easy as the fear of rejection is always there however the type of approach and self-assurance usually help.
From a woman's perspective a man who comes along because he's only interested in a one night stand will usually drive the conversation towards that direction and, unless the lady is looking for the same thing, she will run away asap or she may behave like a witch.
People forget that good manners go a long way whether is to approach or reject. There's no need to be crude or impolite and usually, the rule of treating others as you would like to be treated yourself can be applied in every situation.

Zombrex · 17-02-2011 12:14pm

In my experience the difference between Irish women and foreign women is simply that foreign women simply haven't copped on to the fact that most of the guys that start talking to them in a nightclub want a shag, snog, date (in that order).

There is a lot of noise made about foreign women being more approachable, which is true. But they are also a lot more naive about what the guys intentions are in Irish clubs.

Irish guys (generalizing of course, not all of them) tend to confuse that for "I'm in here", when in fact you aren't really, she just hasn't realized that is what you are after. As far as she is concerned she is just having a conversation with someone, not even someone she herself is interested in. He boyfriend could be sitting in the chair beside her, she will still chat away with you for hours.

I get that all the time with my friends. They want to go to pubs and clubs with foreign girls because the girls are more open to chatting with them.

They translate that, based on Irish rules, to mean they are more open to going home with them, but this seems far from the case.

If they get a number of a girl they are doing lucky, most just head off with their friends some where else, saying "Nice talking to you". This is normally followed by a "She was a bit of a prick tease" comment by my friends, or "So close!".

prinz · 17-02-2011 12:48pm

Wicknight wrote: »

In my experience the difference between Irish women and foreign women is simply that foreign women simply haven't copped on to the fact that most of the guys that start talking to them in a nightclub want a shag, snog, date (in that order)..

I think it's more of a mix, one part not copped on, other part very copped on but couldn't care less. I know a lot of foreign girls that have a pretty good idea what an Irish guy hitting on them is after, and they will still chat, have a drink, dance, pass the time without a shred of interest in anything further. Irish guys do understand this as being 'in there'.

Wicknight wrote: »

Irish guys (generalizing of course, not all of them) tend to confuse that for "I'm in here", when in fact you aren't really, she just hasn't realized that is what you are after. As far as she is concerned she is just having a conversation with someone, not even someone she herself is interested in. He boyfriend could be sitting in the chair beside her, she will still chat away with you for hours.

Been there, done that. The role of the boyfriend sitting beside her that is. It's hugely entertaining listening to some lads make their way through come-on after come-on when she's already made clear she's not interested.

19-02-2011 7:04pm

Wicknight wrote: »

In my experience the difference between Irish women and foreign women is simply that foreign women simply haven't copped on to the fact that most of the guys that start talking to them in a nightclub want a shag, snog, date (in that order).

Can't see why they haven't copped on to such a concept? [(not that I agree that most Irish guys (of all ages) are looking for a shag, snog, date (in that order))...]

How are Irish men different to other men across the world in a club?

There is a lot of noise made about foreign women being more approachable, which is true. But they are also a lot more naive about what the guys intentions are in Irish clubs.

I wouldn't call it naive. They're just as interested as the guys in flirting, and maybe having enjoyable sex at the end of the evening. Considering the national stereotypes that people ascribe to many European nationalities, its amazing that these foreigners are naive about guys interests in clubs. Any clubs. Any men.

Irish guys (generalizing of course, not all of them) tend to confuse that for "I'm in here", when in fact you aren't really, she just hasn't realized that is what you are after. As far as she is concerned she is just having a conversation with someone, not even someone she herself is interested in. He boyfriend could be sitting in the chair beside her, she will still chat away with you for hours.

Possibly... but then I guess that most guys would cop on to the lack of response from a girl, or the glances back towards the guy (either for approval or to ensure that its not going to anger her Bf). And if the girl is giving off responsive signals.. then that's not such a mistake by the approaching guy. Lastly, there are many girls that do flirt heavily who have no interest in going further... but the problem is that they're sending mixed signals of intention. Its natural that guys get confused or angry about being treated that way. Too many women love to play games with the guys they meet.

If they get a number of a girl they are doing lucky, most just head off with their friends some where else, saying "Nice talking to you". This is normally followed by a "She was a bit of a prick tease" comment by my friends, or "So close!".

And you know what they say.. how? (since you're part of the friends being targeted, yes?)

guitarzero · 19-02-2011 7:47pm

Wicknight wrote: »

In my experience the difference between Irish women and foreign women is simply that foreign women simply haven't copped on to the fact that most of the guys that start talking to them in a nightclub want a shag, snog, date (in that order).

Thats impossible. I dont think that order has ever occured in a civilized society. Secondly, this shame aspect to sex.
You are making any guy who merely wants sex as some kind of predator, a deviant. Why? The Catholic church has virtually collapsed but in the minds of Irish women it seems to remain strong. What is wrong with just wanting sex? I simply dont get it. What if you dont get a long with the person but theres chemistry?
Have you thought that perhaps foreign women are simply more open minded and in touch with there sexuality than Irish women? Its this shame that Irish men feel when they are getting smashed off their face to go up and talk to a woman at 2.29 on a Sat night.
If I like a woman on all aspects then I engage with them on all aspects but if its only lust then you can be sure that I'm only in it for one and completely unashames about it. Sex is not a crime, wanting it isnt either, ladies, get over yourselves.

19-02-2011 8:42pm

guitarzero wrote: »

You are making any guy who merely wants sex as some kind of predator, a deviant.

It also suggests that women only go to clubs for non-sexual social interactions.. That its only men that initiate such flirting with the objective of kissing, or sex at the end of conversation. God forbid that women gain the a similar status as men in this respect..

donfers · 20-02-2011 5:30pm

Wicknight wrote: »

In my experience the difference between Irish women and foreign women is simply that foreign women simply haven't copped on to the fact that most of the guys that start talking to them in a nightclub want a shag, snog, date (in that order).

There is a lot of noise made about foreign women being more approachable, which is true. But they are also a lot more naive about what the guys intentions are in Irish clubs.

Irish guys (generalizing of course, not all of them) tend to confuse that for "I'm in here", when in fact you aren't really, she just hasn't realized that is what you are after. As far as she is concerned she is just having a conversation with someone, not even someone she herself is interested in. He boyfriend could be sitting in the chair beside her, she will still chat away with you for hours.

I get that all the time with my friends. They want to go to pubs and clubs with foreign girls because the girls are more open to chatting with them.

They translate that, based on Irish rules, to mean they are more open to going home with them, but this seems far from the case.

If they get a number of a girl they are doing lucky, most just head off with their friends some where else, saying "Nice talking to you". This is normally followed by a "She was a bit of a prick tease" comment by my friends, or "So close!".

hmmm that's one interpretation, i would say it's totally inaccurate though

i think it boils down to the fact that more foreign ladies seem comfortable in their own skin than Irish ladies
more of them, in my opinion at least, have a more mature approach to relations with guys, for example they think it hilarious when an Irish girl needs to get drunk to show a guy she is interested, they don't believe in the games, oneupmanship, putdowns and cockblocking tactics that Irish girls use and they are often amazed to see irish women do this, for many of them they left behind this kind of behaviour in school, oh and by and large they have a far healthier and more honest attitude to sex and expressing their sexuality.....of course Irish men are part of the drink-fuelled guilt-ridden immature attitude to forming relationships in Ireland so I am not pinning all the blame on the ladies

however it's interesting that you view the whole foreign women and irish guy interaction in terms of him trying to gain an easy conquest and her being a polite yet naive and indifferent pawn in the process, i think your analysis is quite revaling about how some Irish women view the dating scene i.e. the sex-crazed guys trying to corrupt the harassed, virtuous(and completely uninterested in sex) and innocent ladies

prinz · 21-02-2011 11:26am

guitarzero wrote: »

The Catholic church has virtually collapsed but in the minds of Irish women it seems to remain strong. What is wrong with just wanting sex?

Cliché alert. Tired old line that has no real relevance or basis in fact. From experiences living in a number of European countries you are much more likely to end up in a ONS/NSA night with an Irish lady than any of the nationalities I have lived among. This nonsense of the Irish being super uptight about sex because of 'Catholic guilt' and everyone else having loads of it... is just that, nonsense to a large degree.

Ickle Magoo · 21-02-2011 12:06pm

Drift wrote: »

Do you think Irish culture has evolved in such a way that young men and women have become very confused about their role in a relationship and as such find it increasingly difficult to form relationships that fit into their own internally conflicting opinions of what a relationship should be?

I think there could be an aspect of that...certainly, the bitterness and resentment felt by some towards the opposite sex is palpable and frankly it's unsurprising that they are having relationship difficulties - a point most seem worryingly oblivious to.

There appears to me to be a proportion of irish men and women who have very set ideas on what they and the opposite sex should be doing, how each should be acting and how each should view themselves - and in 2010 it sometimes seems starkly out of contrast with the reality for all but a handful who still think like themselves...the issue appears, to an outsider like me at least, to be that such people view their own old fashioned and rather quaint views as being the fault of everyone else who doesn't think like that - rather than just accepting time moves on, everyone thinks differently, just find someone else who shares your expectations/views/vision/personal ethos, etc, etc. There seems to be this need to blame and finger-point rather than any attempt at internal reflection.

I met an irishman who hadn't lived in ireland for 7yrs at that stage and other than the gorgeous accent, I didn't see anything that made him stand out as being in any way different to any other nationality. However, a visit back to his home country - my first trip to ireland - and I was frankly appalled at how little some irish men and women view and treat each other.

There is a lack of respect, there is a deep mistrust, even - often borne entirely out of ignorance...I'm sure generations of strict religiosity cannot have passed without leaving a mark; the numbers of single sex schools and the dire lack of celebrating men and women interacting and enjoying each others company must surely have something to do with it. Perhaps the years of disapproval and ring-fencing sex as a baby-making activity to be associated with shame and humiliation out-with a good marriage has left a scar in the irish psyche which changing roles for both sexes and a move away from the old traditions has just highlighted?

prinz · 21-02-2011 12:20pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

There appears to me to be a proportion of irish men and women who have very set ideas on what they and the opposite sex should be doing, how each should be acting and how each should view themselves - and in 2010 it sometimes seems starkly out of contrast with the reality for all but a handful who still think like themselves...the issue appears, to an outsider like me at least, to be that such people view their own old fashioned and rather quaint views as being the fault of everyone else who doesn't think like that - rather than just accepting time moves on, everyone thinks differently, just find someone else who shares your expectations/views/vision/personal ethos, etc, etc. There seems to be this need to blame and finger-point rather than any attempt at internal reflection.

This is quite frankly bull of the highest order. A quick browse on any given day of the PI/RI fora would give the impression that by far the biggest causes of relationship issues and role definition are not caused by people with "old fashioned and rather quaint views" but actually by the oppposite...

Just like in the 'old days' we now have a society that has assigned roles for men and women as much as ever (hard as we try to convince ourselves otherwise), the only problem is that these roles being pushed constantly are often conflicting and don't tend to actually bring any long-term happiness or satisfaction IMO.

Ickle Magoo · 21-02-2011 12:43pm

Well, I wasn't basing my post on irish society on a single forum of boards....even so, in PI/RI the sheer volume of posts that refer to sexual issues/discomfort with aspects of sex & sexuality, inability to communicate, game-playing, discomfort with roles, expectations, etc - all of which are traditional issues especially when conservative religiosity has been calling the shots on what is or isn't acceptable social traditions. I think many of the issues derive at least in part from a liberal world clashing with a society which has had their societal norms dictated to them from the pulpit and that society then turns its back on those dictating and we end up with this foot in each camp depending mostly on upbringing/generation that ireland has at the moment.

I have observed that any mention of religiosity having any influence on anything that isn't wholly wonderful runs the risk of sending you into apoplexy but it's my view that there are now plenty of women who are the main bread-winners or who are better qualified or better paid than some their male counterparts - more women going to uni, more going travelling, less wanting their traditional role - the transition into that being widely acceptable or even nothing out of the ordinary is bound to cause friction and resentment in a society where the gender roles and behaviours have been mapped out by male-led traditionalists for so long.

prinz · 21-02-2011 1:02pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, I wasn't basing my post on irish society on a single forum of boards....even so, in PI/RI the sheer volume of posts that refer to sexual issues/discomfort with aspects of sex & sexuality, inability to communicate, game-playing, discomfort with roles, expectations, etc - all of which are traditional issues especially when conservative religiosity has been calling the shots on what is or isn't acceptable social traditions....

All of which are traditional issues, in the sense that they have always been the cause of issues and always will be. Conservative religiosity has no bearing whatsoever on communication skills for example, be an adult and take some responsibility for your own actions and communication. Constant passing of responsibility. These issues are never going to go away. They are present in many societies of many backgrounds. Challenging roles and expectations is always going to happen, yesterday, today and tomorrow. We're not suddenly going to hit on the perfect utopia where everyone is perfectly aware of gender roles and inter-personal relations.

As for PI/RI it's a decent barometer of these kinds of gender roles/relationship boundaries etc on boards.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think many of the issues derive at least in part from a liberal world clashing with a society which has had their societal norms dictated to them from the pulpit and that society then turns its back on those dictating and we end up with this foot in each camp depending mostly on upbringing/generation that ireland has at the moment....

How many young people are being dictated to from the pulpit? But sure what of it. Blame religion because two 20-somethings had threesome issues :rolleyes:
How long are we going to use our past as the fall-back argument? Next we'll be blaming the English. Finger point, finger point, ironic really given you mentioned the need for internal reflection and moving away from the blame game.

The whole liberal versus conservative clash is also a weak line of argument. There is no clear line divide. The vast majority of people straddle both worlds from one issue to the next. Trying to paint it as troglodytes versus the enlightened liberals is a cynical approach to undermine opposing views before they've even been presented.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I have observed that any mention of religiosity having any influence on anything that isn't wholly wonderful runs the risk of sending you into apoplexy...

Usually because they are completely wide of the mark. Am I apoplectic? No. Just challenging the usual tired line trotted out about Catholic guilt and such nonsense, it's 2011. How many young people are being dictated to from the pulpit? But sure what of it. Blame religion because two 20-somethings had threesome issues :rolleyes:

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

but it's my view that there are now plenty of women who are the main bread-winners or who are better qualified or better paid than some their male counterparts - more women going to uni, more going travelling, less wanting their traditional role - the transition into that being widely acceptable or even nothing out of the ordinary is bound to cause friction and resentment in a society where the gender roles and behaviours have been mapped out by male-led traditionalists for so long.

Yes there are and it's great. There is also the accompanying 'looking down upon' the women who appreciate the more traditional roles, so much so that it is looked at as out of the ordinary these days (and reacted to with vitriol as I found out). Gender roles and behaviours are still being mapped out. They are always being mapped out, and IMO they are more confusing today than ever before and that's not neccessarily a good thing for people either. Just because they aren't being mapped by 'male led traditionalists' doesn't mean they aren't being mapped with some agenda by another group.

Ickle Magoo · 21-02-2011 1:24pm

Too many rolly eyes to bother with a lengthy response. Sure sign of a horse being flogged.

You can, of course, deny to your hearts content that generations of conservative religiosity has had absolutely no effect on the dismal social skills and relationship issues many irish people now find themselves with - adamant that only those puting bums on pews today can possibly be affected by conservative traditionalism pervading society for generations or the effect of modern liberalism lifting the lid on that pressure cooker - frankly I'd have been astonished if you did anything else. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it cannot possibly not be taken into account and I have no personal interest nor lose any face in just calling the conclusions my experiences have brought me to.

prinz · 21-02-2011 1:39pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Too many rolly eyes to bother with a lengthy response. Sure sign of a horse being flogged.

What a mature and well thought-out position to take. I know when I've been bettered. I have yet to figure out the difference between :rolleyes: and

, both innocuous stupid smileys to me, but obviously to the more enlightened folk they speak volumes. How childish can you get. Flogging a dead horse is right.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You can, of course, deny to your hearts content that generations of conservative religiosity has had absolutely no effect on the dismal social skills and relationship issues many irish people now find themselves with -

It is an issue. One of them. A minor one, if at all, for most teens to 30 somethings I would argue. It's just far too easy to point that particular finger and then compare Ireland to the greener grass of other societies that had similar histories.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

or the effect of modern liberalism lifting the lid on that pressure cooker - frankly I'd have been astonished if you did anything else.

There is no pressure cooker lid being lifted. What we have is times, and they change as a wise man once said. They change for all sorts of reasons and not always for the better, which brings me back to the point where the gender roles (in life, as in relationships) have been completely mashed into an unrecognisable mess that means many people don't have a clue where or how they fit in, and just how roles were dictated once upon a time, they are similarly dictated to us now. Only this time many of us ignore the fact that these roles are still being outlined for us and like to imagine we are doing everything for ourselves as free thinkers.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it cannot possibly not be taken into account and I have no personal interest nor lose any face in just calling the conclusions my experiences have brought me to.

There is taking something into account and there is blaming the ills of the world on it. One would be a good start at investigating the causes for something. The other is just a cheap vapid knee-jerk response favoured by a sub-set of wannabe intellectuals who seem to think they have the world figured out with a couple of slogans you could fit into a Chinese fortune cookie.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Too........many.........smiles...... Oh wait, it has absolutely no relevance to the actual content of your post and to disregard what you have said because of your use of

's would be a ridiculous thing to do.

Ickle Magoo · 21-02-2011 2:07pm

As well as a propensity to finger-point at everyone/everything else and a reluctance for self-reflection perhaps we could add insanely defensive to the point that issues can't even be discussed for the ferocity of under-carpet sweeping going on?

prinz · 21-02-2011 2:10pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

As well as a propensity to finger-point at everyone/everything else and a reluctance for self-reflection perhaps we could add insanely defensive to the point that issues can't even be discussed for the ferocity of under-carpet sweeping going on?

What sweeping would that be? Discussion would be good, hence my replies so these things could actually be explored in some depth rather than soundbites of pop-psychology.

Zombrex · 21-02-2011 2:18pm

donfers wrote: »

however it's interesting that you view the whole foreign women and irish guy interaction in terms of him trying to gain an easy conquest and her being a polite yet naive and indifferent pawn in the process, i think your analysis is quite revaling about how some Irish women view the dating scene

It might be if I was an Irish women. Unfortunately for you I'm an Irish man, who has spend most of his adult life engaged, from the male side, in the Irish dating scene and who has dated both Irish girls and foreign girls.

So no offense, but I think I know what I'm talking about.

Zombrex · 21-02-2011 2:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Can't see why they haven't copped on to such a concept? [(not that I agree that most Irish guys (of all ages) are looking for a shag, snog, date (in that order))...]

How are Irish men different to other men across the world in a club?

In my experience Irish men have less female friends, tend to view girls as girlfriend material rather than friendship material. As such there is less of a getting to know phase and building social structures phase than in other European countries.

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't call it naive. They're just as interested as the guys in flirting, and maybe having enjoyable sex at the end of the evening.

Not though necessarily with the guy who is chatting her up. Just because a girl is open to the idea of kissing or having sex with someone doesn't mean they are open to the idea of that with the guy who has approached her.

Irish girls tend to be quick with the "ah feck off" part. Foreign girls a lot less so, again because for them the night is also about social interaction and building a social network, not just getting laid. They assume this from the other side too.

Deleted User wrote: »

Considering the national stereotypes that people ascribe to many European nationalities, its amazing that these foreigners are naive about guys interests in clubs. Any clubs. Any men.

Well when I say European I don't mean the entire continent. I don't have much experience with Italian girls, but given the storm at the moment about how women are treated in Italy I would say Italian girls are quite aware of these things, more so than Germans Dutch or Belgium girls.

Deleted User wrote: »

Possibly... but then I guess that most guys would cop on to the lack of response from a girl, or the glances back towards the guy (either for approval or to ensure that its not going to anger her Bf).

It depends. A lot of my friends seem to take any favorable interaction as a sign of "I'm in here", or at the very least a sign to keep trying.

Irish guys complain about Irish girls shooting them down quickly, but to be honest in some ways it is a far better system if the person is actually just out for a shag/kiss/gf.

Deleted User wrote: »

Its natural that guys get confused or angry about being treated that way. Too many women love to play games with the guys they meet.

Agreed, though I would caution that often guys misunderstand mere interest with flirting, while not denying that some girls just like to flirt for the attention. This is another issue with foreign girls, who may be genuinely interested in your story about snow boarding, while have no interest in you from a romantic point of view. Irish girls tend to know what the deal is better.

I would think though that the trouble with properly interacting and getting to know someone in a nightclub would be a very good idea to stop going to nightclubs to try and meet someone though. There is little point getting angry about it.

Deleted User wrote: »

And you know what they say.. how? (since you're part of the friends being targeted, yes?)

Sorry, I'm not following what you mean? This is what they say to me after the girl has wandered off.

Earthhorse · 21-02-2011 3:40pm

Wicknight wrote: »

In my experience Irish men have less female friends, tend to view girls as girlfriend material rather than friendship material.

Would you say the reverse is true as well? That Irish women have less male friends and tend to view men as boyfriend material rather than friendship material.

donfers · 21-02-2011 5:25pm

Wicknight wrote: »

It might be if I was an Irish women. Unfortunately for you I'm an Irish man, who has spend most of his adult life engaged, from the male side, in the Irish dating scene and who has dated both Irish girls and foreign girls.

So no offense, but I think I know what I'm talking about.

no offense taken, I wrongly assumed you were a woman because

a) the post i quoted from you described in detail the inner workings of a woman's mind as the guy approached

b) I have heard very few men interpret the situation as you do i.e. the guy is only out for sex and if the girl doesn't immediately tell him to f off or exhibits any sign of basic courtesy to the guy he automatically assumes she is gagging for it

if that is indeed your analysis then I suggest if you expand your circle of friends you will see different as that kind of mindset is certainly not typical in my experience

Zombrex · 21-02-2011 5:34pm

Earthhorse wrote: »

Would you say the reverse is true as well? That Irish women have less male friends and tend to view men as boyfriend material rather than friendship material.

I would, though that isn't that relevant to the question.

21-02-2011 5:35pm

Wicknight wrote: »

In my experience Irish men have less female friends, tend to view girls as girlfriend material rather than friendship material. As such there is less of a getting to know phase and building social structures phase than in other European countries.

Oddly enough I've found that it depends on whether the guys are involved in sports or other activities. The guys I know that are involved in sports have large groups of friends, and are regularly out socialising with them. The contact with women seems to be through the girlfriends of the respective friends, and such. Whereas the "quieter" guys
tend to have a balanced group of friends with a fairly equal ratio of men and women. Personally, I have far more female friends than male friends.

I have to wonder about these other European countries, because there are plenty of European cultures with far more obvious macho culture mindsets where men stick with men and women stick with women. I've found that in southern countries like Italy or Spain the men form deep friendships with other men, and women float around on the outside.

Not though necessarily with the guy who is chatting her up. Just because a girl is open to the idea of kissing or having sex with someone doesn't mean they are open to the idea of that with the guy who has approached her.

Naturally... That's the same with any woman. The point is that the potential is most definitely there, and foreign women tend to acknowledge that.

Well when I say European I don't mean the entire continent. I don't have much experience with Italian girls, but given the storm at the moment about how women are treated in Italy I would say Italian girls are quite aware of these things, more so than Germans Dutch or Belgium girls.

Storms come and go, and very little is changed in the mainstream. Like any country its very difficult to generalise about womens opinions.

It depends. A lot of my friends seem to take any favorable interaction as a sign of "I'm in here", or at the very least a sign to keep trying.

Grand, but you should be aware that A LOT of other men don't think this way. But TBH in dating, persistence without being creepy or pathetic is necessary, considering the amount of tests that women regularly throw our way to determine what sort of guy we are.

Irish guys complain about Irish girls shooting them down quickly, but to be honest in some ways it is a far better system if the person is actually just out for a shag/kiss/gf.

The problem is that there is a general lack of honesty. Irish women either preen and flirt leading the guys on, and then shoot them down or shoot everyone down immediately and then complain about why men never approach them. Or how they give up too easily. At least my female Irish friends often make that complaint. And the odd thing is that they want a shag just as much as the guy, but just can't admit it fully. That belief that if they do, then they're a slut.

Agreed, though I would caution that often guys misunderstand mere interest with flirting, while not denying that some girls just like to flirt for the attention. This is another issue with foreign girls, who may be genuinely interested in your story about snow boarding, while have no interest in you from a romantic point of view. Irish girls tend to know what the deal is better.

There will always be misunderstandings. You see, I live most of the time in China. There, I am sought after.. both because my blue eyes, thin frame, and quirky personality are so different to Chinese men, and also because of the host of less favorable reasons like visa's, income etc. And with the difference in culture & language plenty of misunderstandings occur. Especially when people make the assumptions that the person they're talking to is like everyone else of their nationality.

Irish girls.. well... are pretty good at making quick assumptions based on nothing and running with it. Foreign girls tend to have lived (not spent a week in a resort) in a few countries, and have learned that people are not always how they appear, and are worth giving a chance.

I would think though that the trouble with properly interacting and getting to know someone in a nightclub would be a very good idea to stop going to nightclubs to try and meet someone though. There is little point getting angry about it.

I don't go to Irish nightclubs anymore. It drove me nuts. That was my answer. I do love nightclubs in other countries. What does that tell you?

Sorry, I'm not following what you mean? This is what they say to me after the girl has wandered off.

So.. how do you know what the girl is thinking? You're stating the thoughts of both sides...

Zombrex · 21-02-2011 5:37pm

donfers wrote: »

b) I have heard very few men interpret the situation as you do i.e. the guy is only out for sex and if the girl doesn't immediately tell him to f off or exhibits any sign of basic courtesy to the guy he automatically assumes she is gagging for it

I didn't say "gagging for it". I said he assumes she finds him attractive and is open to the idea of future interaction along the lines of potentially hooking up. Or to put it another way, she fancies him too.

This is why I said in many ways the way Irish girls interact with Irish guys in nightclubs, the way a lot of guys complain about, is in fact often more honest or at least in line with that the guy is thinking. A lot of Irish guys complain that Irish girls don't give them the time of day in a night club, but then also complain when a girl does chat to them and makes it appear (either in their head or genuinely) that they fancy them back and then nothing happens.

donfers wrote: »

if that is indeed your analysis then I suggest if you expand your circle of friends you will see different as that kind of mindset is certainly not typical in my experience

This thread would seem to suggest otherwise.

The Irish Dating/Sex/Virginity/Women/Men Relationship Defining Debate

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