The Irish Dating/Sex/Virginity/Women/Men Relationship Defining Debate

Zulu

b3t4 wrote: »

I think the post which states that a female was spat on when she refused a guys advances is particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do.

I'm not saying women behave in any particular way - but that comment is very inacurate in fairness. I have never seen a woman being spat on. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's probably as frequent as a woman getting raped.
To say that because of a few extra ordinary experiences is "particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do" is a total inaccurate cop out.

Zombrex

b3t4 wrote: »

I think the post which states that a female was spat on when she refused a guys advances is particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do

I don't think you need to go that far to see why some women in Ireland heave the way they do.

Earthhorse

Wicknight wrote: »

I don't think you need to go that far to see why some women in Ireland heave the way they do.

Nice typo!

raemie21

I remember a guy doing something similar to me before, didn't exactly spit on me but stuck out his tongue and made that noise that babies do when they don't like their food.

I actually find it really hard to distinguish between a guy who is just chatting to you and a guy who is chatting you up. I've tried to take it easy and assume they are not after something but usually get it wrong & then I get the backlash of why am I being such a tease, i'm a stuck up cow who thinks she's great, he was 'only having a laugh' , what's my problem, i'm a snob, why am I wasting his time etc.

Maybe we're both a bit insecure and hate the rejection, I know I've heard a few friends of mine say some awful things too but certainly guys can give the crude verbal backlash when things don't go to plan for them.

The other thing that happens to me frequently on nights out is that a guy will slap me across my backside - seriously, that happens 2/3 nights on average. I'll be walking across the room or at the bar and coming out of the toilets - doesn't matter. And this isn;t in the same clubs/pubs either. Apart from being incredibly rude, a type of assault and not in the least bit attractive, it's also genuinely sore at times. The guy can then either look around and smile (as if?!), often just walks away or has a laugh with his mates. I used be very embarrassed when this happened and would avoid looking back but now I give the look over and shake my head saying that I'm out of their league - now I know that's spiteful but it makes me feel better about it and hey, maybe next time they won't slap my backside and try talk to me instead.

I've also had a guy spill his pint over me to get attention & he thought I'd see the funny side. WTF???

And these guys I'm talking about are in their mid-late twenties, so no lame excuses for immature behaviour please.
And also, I dress well but not with all out flesh if that's what any of you were thinking.
Seriously, it's hard work out there!!

Seraphina

Zulu wrote: »

I'm not saying women behave in any particular way - but that comment is very inacurate in fairness. I have never seen a woman being spat on. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's probably as frequent as a woman getting raped.

considering the amount of rapes reported every year, less women probably get spat on than raped, but in fairness, i'd much prefer to be spat on than raped so its a bit of a stupid comparison really

Seraphina

raemie21 wrote: »

I actually find it really hard to distinguish between a guy who is just chatting to you and a guy who is chatting you up. I've tried to take it easy and assume they are not after something but usually get it wrong & then I get the backlash of why am I being such a tease, i'm a stuck up cow who thinks she's great, he was 'only having a laugh' , what's my problem, i'm a snob, why am I wasting his time etc.

totally agree, fact is, 99% of irish men do NOT take rejection very well, as if me being taken/out with my friends and not interested in giving him ALL my attention/not interested because he's too drunk to hold a conversation is a personal attack on his character and worth as a person.

i am always polite and friendly with guys who chat to me, but unfortunately, while the guys here claim they can't talk to women without the women thinking they are coming on to them, i've had pretty much the opposite experience with guys talking to me, in that they've always been after something, and they assume because you're chatting back, its fine for them to grab you/ try to kiss you after 3 mins lame conversation/ whatever.

problem is, a bunch of drunken assholes who are much more forward and agressive when it comes to chatting up women have given most of the irish male population a bad name

Zulu

Seraphina wrote: »

considering the amount of rapes reported every year, less women probably get spat on than raped, but in fairness, i'd much prefer to be spat on than raped so its a bit of a stupid comparison really

em no. You've just acknowledged that: a) it happens less and b) it's less likely to happen. So it's hardly "stupid" or ill-conceived. In fact, the comparison did exactly what I wanted it to do, which was to suggest that:
Using the excuse that the odd person got spat at to excuse snobbery and aloofness is as poor an excuse as suggesting rape is the reason people can be snobby or aloof.

Thanks for your opinion though.

Drift

b3t4 wrote: »

I think the post which states that a female was spat on when she refused a guys advances is particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do.

I'm honestly very shocked that this type of thing happens. If it was a one off incident I'd be appalled but the fact that it appears to happen quite often is just beyond anything I could imagine. I can assure the girls though that there are plenty of guys myself and my friends included who would have very strong words with any man who did that to a woman.

Seraphina wrote: »

totally agree, fact is, 99% of irish men do NOT take rejection very well, as if me being taken/out with my friends and not interested in giving him ALL my attention/not interested because he's too drunk to hold a conversation is a personal attack on his character and worth as a person.

I think 99% is a bit high. No-one likes rejection but many of us can be and are perfectly polite when a girl lets us know she's not interested. Obviously it's a blow to a guys ego but it's not the end of the world.

Seraphina wrote: »

problem is, a bunch of drunken assholes who are much more forward and agressive when it comes to chatting up women have given most of the irish male population a bad name

Here here. The really sad thing is that even though I don't drink and I'm very polite (I am I swear!) most girls seem to immediately assign the drunken aggresive stereotype to all guys that talk to them - it means you're already starting with her having a low opinion of you which can be hard to get beyond.

Zulu

Drift wrote: »

The really sad thing is that even though I don't drink ...it means you're already starting with her having a low opinion of you which can be hard to get beyond.

You could argue that the really sad thing is that these ladies have let the actions of "a bunch of drunken assholes" give the rest of the male population a bad name.

Macha

Having lived in France for a year, I have to say it is so nice in Ireland not to have some guy eyeing you up or asking you out the second you walk in the door of a place. When I first came back from France, I was constantly on my guard & was actually quite rude to a few guys initially before I realised what I was doing.

Then again, I have had a stranger come up to me in a bar and say 'Nice tits!' Not a recommended chat-up line, more likely to get the speaker a punch in the face than a good night out. Actually the weekend of the Italian match, these little Italians came up to us & were really cheeky - I don't find Irish guys are like that at all.

I think the problem is there's a bit of a vacuum. Equality has arrived and women need to do some asking!

Zulu - your comment on women being spat on about the same number of times they get raped is probably the silliest thing I've ever read on my time here on Boards!

tech77

Wicknight wrote: »

I would say the same thing

The problem is that both genders, particularly younger people, really want to be considered worthy of desire from the other gender. They want to be considered successful in attracting people, because our culture puts so much weight in that as a item of value. This manifest itself differently in men and women (men will boast to their mates that they shagged such and such, where as women will cuddle up to their attractive, popular, successful man pleased that he, someone important, has decided that she is worthy of going out with, and therefore she is important and worthy too or at least attractive enough to get one), but ultimately it is the same thing.

This leads to insecurity, the idea that we have no self worth because we aren't attracting people like such and such. I think a lot of it has to do with our celeb culture, particularly modern American and English celeb culture that puts so much emphasis on sexual attraction over everything else.

So to combat that insecurity they subscribe to these notions of the opposite gender as something that can be controlled and predicted, that it is possible to study and learn how to be attractive to them.

This ultimately objectifies the other person you are trying to attract. You don't actually like them, you probably don't even know them, you want to see if you can pull them because doing so will make you feel better about yourself (btw this links into why women go for bastards)

Its interesting that men's mags have really started pilling on the guides for how to attract women. A lot of these articles are ridiculous, but they serve the purpose of convincing the insecure male that there is actually something they can do to make themselves more successful at attracting women.

Of course women's mags and books have been doing this for years. The idea that men objectify women but not the other way around is nonsense. Women objectify men far more than men objectify women. But for some reason this is seen as harmless, where as men doing it is seen as a sign of lack of respect and of the old gender wars.

So I suppose ultimately it does come down to a lack of respect for the opposite gender, the idea that they are predictable creatures that once the secret is cracked you can have them easily, and that having them sexually desire you is important and makes you important, irrespective of who they actually are

Good post, Wicknight.

Zulu

taconnol wrote: »

Zulu - your comment on women being spat on about the same number of times they get raped is probably the silliest thing I've ever read on my time here on Boards!

I understand where you are coming from, what with our recent posts and all. Thanks for your opinion.

I would find it strange that you couldn't grasp what I'm was trying to express, if I didn't believe that you'd rather just have a pop. Ah well fair enough I suppose.

Let me see, perhaps if I remove the rape reference and use another reference it would suit your sensibilities better?

Read: I'm not saying women behave in any particular way - but that comment is very inaccurate in fairness. I have never seen a woman being spat on. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's probably as frequent as a woman getting knocked down crossing the road.
To say that because of a few extra ordinary experiences is "particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do" is a total inaccurate cop out.

Does that sit better with you? No? Well ok - my point is that it's an infrequent occurrence, and that to attempt to excuse the behaviour of a (large?) portion of our society by very infrequent actions isn't accurate.

...but of course I don't expect you to accept that as being anything other than the second silliest comment ever read here. :rolleyes:

Macha

Zulu wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from, what with our recent posts and all. Thanks for your opinion.

I would find it strange that you couldn't grasp what I'm was trying to express, if I didn't believe that you'd rather just have a pop. Ah well fair enough I suppose.

Let me see, perhaps if I remove the rape reference and use another reference it would suit your sensibilities better?

Read: I'm not saying women behave in any particular way - but that comment is very inaccurate in fairness. I have never seen a woman being spat on. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's probably as frequent as a woman getting knocked down crossing the road.
To say that because of a few extra ordinary experiences is "particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do" is a total inaccurate cop out.

Does that sit better with you? No? Well ok - my point is that it's an infrequent occurrence, and that to attempt to excuse the behaviour of a (large?) portion of our society by very infrequent actions isn't accurate.

...but of course I don't expect you to accept that as being anything other than the second silliest comment ever read here. :rolleyes:

Dude, your sarcastic passive-aggressive posts don't do you any favours.

Wicknight, I agree with your post. I have one girlfriend in particular with quite low self-esteem. She can't go for a night out without turning it into a man-chase - to the extent that it has damaged her friendships with me and others. And for what? Empty validation of her own attractiveness through the pointless 'pulling' of guys who are probably doing exactly the same thing - meaningless interaction or what?

Zombrex

Zulu wrote: »

You could argue that the really sad thing is that these ladies have let the actions of "a bunch of drunken assholes" give the rest of the male population a bad name.

Doesn't really follow, ladies aren't responsible for provoking men into behaving a certain way, so how would they be responsible for men acting like assh*les and giving the rest of us a bad name.

Zulu

Wicknight wrote: »

Doesn't really follow, ladies aren't responsible for provoking men into behaving a certain way, so how would they be responsible for men acting like assh*les and giving the rest of us a bad name.

Sorry perhaps I wasn't being clear. I wasn't trying to suggest ladies were provoking men. What I was trying to suggest was that:
it could be viewed as a shame that people would let a small number of a group tarnish there opinion of a greater group.

(Think of it like this: it's a shame that society lets a small number of bad apples amongst the travelling community tarnish their opinion of that community as a whole - now substitute men for the travelling community, and well greater society as women. Is that any clearer? Sorry, I'm on the beer.)

kravmaga

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

One thing I notice that is different about Ireland to other countries, is the lack of clearly defined gender roles here, as well as clearly defined 'rules' of dating, both before and after the Celtic tiger.

Irish women are often quite blokey, and Irish men often quite shy (largely as a result of being used to being told for most of their lives to **** off and not even think about it!) Irish men and women, traditionally, dont know the little dating/flirting tips n tricks that women and men from other cultures are practically taught at birth.

I watch my mainland European male friends, literally cleaning up at parties with very basic stuff: Just looking a woman straight in the eyes with a cheeky knowing grin, and they'll be upstairs a-shagging seconds later. Something that most Irish guys simply wouldnt ever be able to do.

Ditto with the ladies. Many Irish ladies are still stuck with the same tecnique they used in Primary school. Slag him off, call him names and laugh at him, and that probably means you're interested in him. Or not. How is one to know?

In recent years, both Irish Men and women have tried to make up for this deficiency by adopting a sort of caricature of what they see as mature (usually American or Anglo-style) sexuality. This usually involves dying your hair blond, wearing a skirt the size of a handerchief and enough fake tan to keep Willy Wonka supplied with Oompa Loompas till doomsday. For the guys this involves drinking 18 pints so you'll have the courage to go up to a girl and say "So d'ya fancy a **** or wha?"

Of course, this bravado is about as deep as the pints that inspired it. It's something that Italians/Spanish and other Euros find hilarious to watch about us. The hugely low self-esteem that causes young girls to think that a short skirt ,died blond hair and a sassy 'tude constitutes :"Sexy".

In other countries, sexy is about far, far more than that.

Excellent post and I agree with the paragraph on irish woman using skills they learned inprimary school, ie slag him off, rip the piss out of him, laugh at him, my mates wives do this to them every day.

I dont get Irishwomens soh anymore, much prefer English, Latino's and Polish woman, and they are on our door steps now

dr_manhattan

As an aside, I'd recommend the book "red queen" by Matt Ridley, an investigation of how sexual drives explain our social interactions and aspirations.

Unfortunately, we are biologically programmed to treat reproductive capabilities as status symbols. It's not that we can't escape it, it's just very much hard wired into us.

Otherwise sex wouldn't be such a potent force in our lives. Simple as that.

So while I wholeheartedly agree with the majority of this thread, which is essentially looking at how material wealth and social networking distorts our sexuality and makes it a nasty game, all I can say is it's not something that comes from nowhere.

Imho, the worst thing about it is that our society wasn't designed, it evolved from the most brutal of societies where alpha males with massive harems (kings) made their reproductive prowess (ascendancy and title) the be-all and end-all of their societies. Everything was connected to bloodlines, which gave the right to simply take everything.

And so what we're left with is a bit of a mess. No matter how much we correct it, our society promotes mindless behaviour and chessplaying in order to get the biggest nest, and thus the most prestigious mate(s).

At the end of the day, our DNA is using us to get about and recombine in the most prolific and successful way possible. If we want to get away from this we need to work pretty damn hard at it.

oh and PS this is not some darwinian justification for ****ty behaviour - quite the opposite, I think that saying "well we're made this way" is a lazy copout. But I also believe that we must be honest about this stuff, and realise that we ourselves are the culprits.

My 2 cents

dr_manhattan

Oh and btw, great post wicknight:

"So I suppose ultimately it does come down to a lack of respect for the opposite gender, the idea that they are predictable creatures that once the secret is cracked you can have them easily, and that having them sexually desire you is important and makes you important, irrespective of who they actually are"

On this note I recommend "the game" by Neil Strauss - a writer who joined the online dating community (one of which is the basis for Tom Cruise's character in "magnolia") and became the centre of it.

Cultures like these people (they call themselves PUAs - Pick Up Artists) and stuff like NLP make me sick. They are driving our society ever deeper into moral bankruptcy by advising everyone to lie in order to be popular.

On a similar note, reality TV culture and big brother (mentioned here as potentially to blame for poor worldviews and simplistic self worth systems) are just the lowest common denominator in a messed up system.

* cheapest possible TV, with replaceable characters
* lowest from of entertainment: laughing at stupid people with the potential to watch them have sex LIVE!
* appeals to inherent laziness of a spoonfed culture that not only want to be rich and famous above all else, but they want it to happen instantly and for no reason
* destroys any potential for TV to educate by replicating the same, uneducated, retarded conversations we all have every day, and putting it on TV like it's some how interesting or unusual.
* appeals to the lowest need for recognition and sexualised popularity
* promotes the idea that everyone's opinion is important and everyone's ideas are valuable - sorry but if this is true then why do we educate ourselves, and why do we use these educational qualifications to get employment?

Rant over ;-)

Earthhorse

dr_manhattan wrote: »

On this note I recommend "the game" by Neil Strauss - a writer who joined the online dating community (one of which is the basis for Tom Cruise's character in "magnolia") and became the centre of it.

I started reading that this week as it happens. Haven't seen Magnolia but who is Cruise's character based on?

dr_manhattan

LOL, I just can't leave this one alone ;-)

Just a further comment on lying to "crack" the opposite sex:

In "the game" there's a great moment when all the top PUAs realise that - from networking and holding seminars - they have vastly more phone numbers of other desperate men than of hot glamourous women.

There's a very funny undertone of homoeroticism, pointing out that men do this stuff as much to impress and bond with other men as to meet women. That's why I nejoyed the book, cos on one level it's "hey look at us, gods of dating" but on a much higher level it's a great description of the farcical actions of desperately insecure and damaged men preying on vacuous damaged women.

The fact that Courtney Love winds up living with them for the latter half of the book underlines this, haha. Thoroughly recommend this book, it's trash you'd read it in 5 minutes...

It's always seemed funny to me that when it comes down to arhctypes, generalisations etc:

"straight" men often prefer the company of men to women
"gay" men often prefer the company of women to men

Anyone else think that's funny?

Zulu

I always taught that was more to do with the removal of sexual tension though?

dr_manhattan

"I started reading that this week as it happens. Haven't seen Magnolia but who is Cruise's character based on?"

Oh... let me think... okay, he's the second "master" that Strauss meets.

I've just realised I can't remember any of their names. Either way, when he does meet him, the tom cruise thing is mentioned plenty.

Btw, cruise's character in Magnolia is a self help guru who preys on male fear of women. "respect the cock! tame the ****!" is his mantra...

Zulu, are you referring to my "straight men prefer men" thing?

I've no real theory on *why* it happens, I just think it's very odd. As a kid, I quickly realised that the best way to meet available women without the meat market was hanging around with gay men... I mean, doesn't anyone else think this is bizarre?

Meanwhile, some men I know who refer to themselves as "ladies men" have no female friends and are totally puzzled by women.

I think it's hilarious myself...

Knee-Vee

Hmm... I must say, this thread is very interesting. First off, I'm a girl. I'm trying out (for the first time) this dating before being officially going out, and so far it's working beautifully. It's fun, and considering the fella in question is a good friend, it means I can gauge how things are going pretty comfortably.

Latchy

Intresting topic . It's about our irish self esteem .Generally speaking in our catholic repressed culture , We were brought up that only Aerican English Sandinavian and other Eropeans were allowed to have a good time and feel good about themselfs and their sexuality ,but one thing for sure is they did not have the same hang ups about sex and dating . Other cultures try build up the self esteem of the children from early age to be confident in everything they try to achieve without the hang ups and guilt associated ,were as the irish pyche was all about what you could /can not do and what you cannot achieve .This expanded into our social lives until we were only confident after twenty pints before we could even say ' hello to the oppisite sex. I am sure a lot has changed since i lived in ireland (pre celtic tiger ) but looking at OP's opinions ,it seem in some cases a lot hasn't .

dr_manhattan wrote: »

"straight" men often prefer the company of men to women
"gay" men often prefer the company of women to men

Anyone else think that's funny?

That is somthing i have pointed out many times and it says a lot about how f----d up our sexualitys are and can be , very funny indeed .

dr_manhattan

"I am sure a lot has changed since i lived in ireland (pre celtic tiger ) but looking at OP's opinions ,it seem in some cases a lot hasn't ."

heh... well in some ways it's changed massively - but only in the fact that we're now dealing with people who are loudly teumpeting the fact that they're *not* repressed... while being repressed haha

Earthhorse

dr_manhattan wrote: »

"straight" men often prefer the company of men to women
"gay" men often prefer the company of women to men

I don't think that's true so much as it is easier for those groups to form and sustain friendships.

dr_manhattan wrote: »

Oh... let me think... okay, he's the second "master" that Strauss meets.

I've just realised I can't remember any of their names. Either way, when he does meet him, the tom cruise thing is mentioned plenty.

Hmmmm, Ross Jeffries? The NLP guy? I dunno, I'm only half way through the book, no mention of Tom Cruise so far.

Latchy

dr_manhattan wrote: »

"
heh... well in some ways it's changed massively - but only in the fact that we're now dealing with people who are loudly teumpeting the fact that they're *not* repressed... while being repressed haha

Some things never change and then some things just dont want to either ie, better the divil you know

Earthhorse wrote: »

I don't think that's true so much as it is easier for those groups to form and sustain friendships.
QUOTE]

But the irony is that gay men flirt with females and vice versa and the lads are hanging out with the lads cos thats what hetrosexual guys do up until and in between dating /marrying girls .I somtimes think the gays want it both way in looking for attention of both sexs

dr_manhattan

"Ross Jeffries? The NLP guy?"

yep, that's the guy - I *think*

unfortunately in order to conclusively identify him, I'd have to spoil later developments ;-)

Just remembering: "mystery" is the first PUA he meets, right? Well it's the other, even more neurotic, less likeable one.

Damn, I'd like to discuss some of the aspects of the end of that book, but of course I'd spoil it. Hurry up and finish ;-)

As for gay/straight friendships being easier to sustain, if that was the case then why don't more gay women hang out with straight men?

My hunch is that sexual-ish attraction plays a part, too: and my hunch is reinforced by the hilarious defensiveness of a lot of gay men when it's pointed out that they spend entire nights hanging off their female mates' boobs, biting their necks, groping them and making sure that no straight man gets near them in an amusingly posessive way.

Likewise, point out to your average straight male that he spends more time hanging off his male friends, showering with them (I'm no sport person but my idea of the average straight man is), and telling them they love them when drunk... and you'll get a pretty defensive reaction, too.

Like I say, it's funny.

All I'm trying to say is that sexuality is fluid. I'm not rubbishing either "average gay men" or "average straight men" cos as we all know, neither exists ;-)

dr_manhattan

"I somtimes think the gays want it both way in looking for attention of both sexes"

Heh... lest this turn into an archetype-bashing festival, I feel duty bound to point out that while I agree with you, we're both talking about "attention seeking gay men" here so that's kinda moot.

Unfortunately for many gay men, attention seeking, bad hair, public screaming and acting like a 12 year old princess have become synonymous with being gay... hence the "average gay man" term.

Thing is, you could say this about straight blokes too, we're just not conditioned to see it that way:

With a group of straight men, most men want the focus of the group *and* the attention of any passing females. They'll try and turn their hunt for a woman into a game for their mates, and they'll try and use sex to secure a place in group hierarchies.

I find that men who hang in groups are disturbingly focused on their fellow group members, what they're earning, what they said last night, what their bird is like and yes, ultimately, whether they're "secretly gay" or not, LOL.

Like a while back with some people I know. One of my closest friends (friend A) is always saying one of them (friend is gay, despite him being in a 12 year relationship. The relationship serves as "proof" of this, ironically enough, cos apparently any other straight bloke would have "played the field".

Imagine my amusement when, at a dinner party my joking about this got the response "oh do you not know about A and B?" from A's wife.

Apparently during a drunken game at an NYE's party two years back, B was asked which of his male friends he'd snog. He said A. So they had a big snog in front of everyone (wives and SO's included).

Not sayiong *either* are gay... I just think it's hilarious that my mate is going around certain that the one bloke he's snogged in his life is a gay.

LMAO, okay, back to work.

Earthhorse

dr_manhattan wrote: »

Just remembering: "mystery" is the first PUA he meets, right? Well it's the other, even more neurotic, less likeable one.

Hehe, sounds like Jeffries alright.

dr_manhattan wrote: »

Damn, I'd like to discuss some of the aspects of the end of that book, but of course I'd spoil it. Hurry up and finish ;-)

Well, I only started it Monday and am already half way through so going fairly fast. It's a pretty addictive read. Few nights out coming up and I tend to read less at the weekend but should be finished early next week.

dr_manhattan wrote: »

As for gay/straight friendships being easier to sustain, if that was the case then why don't more gay women hang out with straight men?

I don't know much about gay women (or gay men, or straight women, or straight men now that I come to think of it) but I suspect that they are not the mirror opposite of gay men. So just because gay men often seek the company of straight women doesn't mean that gay women will similarly seek the company of straight men.

I wouldn't deny that sexuality is more fluid than most people care to admit or any of the other ideas you express in your post, I suppose my issue was more with the use of the word "prefer" in your earlier post. Speaking as a straight man I would prefer to have more female friends and better friendships with my existing female friends but the opportunities for said friendships are fewer and the friendship is more likely to be become de-railed as a result of attraction. And I think that, broadly speaking, that's true for most people.